Karma system, what is your take on this?

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

My team and I decided to make our current game project based on your actions through a Karma system, which every decision you make impacts everything of the towns, people and end game content (Impacts on which last boss you will be fighting).

I wish to know (Doing a little research): How do you as the players feel towards this idea? Good/bad idea? Worth/not worth it? Bacon?

I am dying to know even my avatar is crying blood :3

 

[EtphTheElephant]

Worth it, it gives the player more control on how they wanna be or known as. The ruthless killer, the hero et etc. Bacon, don't forget the bacon.

 

[Frostyfirefly]

If the Karma system has no negative consequences (such a contradiction), then I think players will like it. 

I don't like games that penalize me just cause I killed the guy that was causing trouble and acting like a jerk, it feels like they are trying to impose their own sense of morality on you.

I think that's what gives a lot of appeal to antiheroes, such as Conan the Barbarian (who I consider a hero), because those characters are free to act and do as they please, and sure, there will be consequences, but it feels like a logical outcome of their actions (you killed the captain of the guard, the guards will now attack you every time) rather than some invisible system penalizing your progress in the game.

If you do implement the karma system, it would be great if all endings and bosses are satisfactory regardless of what you chose; just different. Kinda like the old Shin Megami Tensei games.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

The Karma we planned on having will effect multiple places, so certain places will have consequences for being bad and some consequences in being good in other places, so both will be equal but what is the main cherry on the cake is the differences at the end of everything which are the last bosses which will determine on your karma.

 

[Darkanine]

If changes the story,skills learned and (maybe) gear able to equip,then it sounds like an awesome idea!

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

The main things that will change in Karma is mainly the story but it will significantly change the shop prices depending what town they are towards your Karma, if you are evil and you are in a good town the prices go up and vice-versa, if you are good/evil in a good/evil town then you get a discount on the shops prices, obviously every town will have their own special gear in them as well.

Spell changes however I am not sure how we are going to pull that off because you are in a party of characters that is also part of the story and your main character is the one that makes the decisions but depending on your decisions whether it is good or evil, you party members will most likely comment about your actions but it won't change much but changing the main characters spells and battle styles might become a balance problem and make quite a gap between you and your party members.

But story change, shop discounts/increases and different gear variety will definitely be in this project, that is what we have in mind.

 

[Omnimental]

Personally, if you're going to implement such a system, don't show the players where they are on the karma meter.  If they can't get a general idea via clues in-game (dialog, options, graphics, ect), then the karma system has been poorly implemented.  If you show the player that their character's alignment is a number, then that's all they'll usually treat it as.

Also, assuming you're doing a split alignment style karma meter, I find going selfish/selfless provides much better fodder then the usual good/evil divide we see.

 

[headdie]

Personally, if you're going to implement such a system, don't show the players where they are on the karma meter.  If they can't get a general idea via clues in-game (dialog, options, graphics, ect), then the karma system has been poorly implemented.  If you show the player that their character's alignment is a number, then that's all they'll usually treat it as.

Also, assuming you're doing a split alignment style karma meter, I find going selfish/selfless provides much better fodder then the usual good/evil divide we see.

this matches my views nicely as a player.  both in terms of how it is used and in terms of what karma measures.  while good/evil is a good system, it is also very subjective, for example a capitalist and a socialist will both have different standards for good and bad.  Selfish and selfless would work well or perhaps a measure of being a guardian over being a destroyer.  It all depends on your setting of course.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Hmm, good points, I will jot those down and discuss with my team, this kind of feedback is just what I need :3

 

[hian]

My biggest issues with Karma systems, is that they inevitably make value judgments for you by classing behavior as either good or bad.

I hate this because good and evil are simplistic fairytale notions that have no real connection to anything in the real world.

People aren't evil, they have character flaws that lead to behavior that harms others.

Furthermore, no act is essential to its intention, which means that acts intended to be good, might very well cause harm.

So, if I'm given a choice between taking someone's life, how will that be judged?

In games with karma systems, all such actions must have an arbitrary standard with which to judge the act immediately, in order to assign karma points and that necessarily leads to dumbing down the context of the action.

Let's say I kill a guy, and the guy I killed would, if I hadn't killed him, done something horrible. Shouldn't that mean I get good karma points?

What if I let him live out of goodness of my heart, doesn't that make me good, despite the fact that it had ****ty consequences for somebody else?

All games I've played with karma systems just opt out of that discussion, and therefore they end up with these silly Disneyish good/evil archetypes, and that's something I can't stand.

In my game, the "karma" system is invisible. How you respond to moral dilemmas effect character development, in terms of stats and skills you receive. It also changes some story elements, but you are never told how good or bad you are.

All situations happen in, and are limited to, the specific context you're in at that moment.

It doesn't limit your endings, or make it harder for you to play.

It's a tool that allows the player to express him or herself in different ways and thus relate more closely to the character - not an excuse to fill your game with simplistic characters and roots to different endings.

Real consequential choices have real consequential results - small inconsequential choices don't somehow magically amass into one giant life-altering event.

People who think that read too many fortune cookies and horoscopes.

 

[CRogers]

I agree/disagree with hian about evil; while I wouldn't go so far as to say people aren't evil, the issue is much more complicated than can be fully expressed within a single video game. I think the main point is that few people, if any, actively practice 'evil', as in that they 'be evil for the sake of being evil'.

However; we're talking about a video game and I don't think it is necessary that the game tackle every possible issue. Many games have been very successful by allowing players to just wantonly kill and destroy property if they choose to take that path. Your world view only has to be as complex as the game you are trying to make (and obviously that complexity and game will factor into who it appeals to).

If you are doing a fantasy game, outright evil people, outright evil cities even, can work because you generally have deities that are pushing these things forward. If you add in religious organizations and gods that are influencing the world, people dedicated to the practice of evil become a little more 'logical'.

I do think your idea might work better if you have competing ideologies/political systems. A shopkeeper saying 'You've stood up for the Empire, no friend of the Empire pays full price here' makes more sense than 'You sacked that town the other day. I love evil acts, here, let me do a very unevil thing and give you a discount'. You could even potentially have actions that are 'good' that raise the karma of the player in multiple factions eyes.

That's just a suggestion for a direction you could go, but I don't think simplistic moral standards in games are inherently 'bad', but it will likely help your design if you recognize that upfront.

 

[Darkanine]

@Omnimental I like the idea,but it seems like the player might not know theirs a karma system to begin with,and that the game just started to take a dark turn (Like in Live a live,the knight character became horribly evil towards the end of the game).The thing that makes Karma systems so fun is the replay value they add.

Although I get in the bad habit of just going on huge murderous rampages  .

 

[Omnimental]

@Omnimental I like the idea,but it seems like the player might not know theirs a karma system to begin with,and that the game just started to take a dark turn (Like in Live a live,the knight character became horribly evil towards the end of the game).The thing that makes Karma systems so fun is the replay value they add.

Although I get in the bad habit of just going on huge murderous rampages  .

I dunno, I'd rather my players want to replay the game to see what happens when they choose option X instead of option Y, not so they can have their "100% Good" and "100% Evil" runs.  Karma choices should actually make the player think, not just mindlessly bash the option labeled for their alignment.

And honestly, the player not knowing and seeing the game take a dark turn sounds phenomenal for when they share their experiences with other players.

Player 1: "Man, it sucks when the hero's best friend betrays him in the final battle."

Player 2: "What are you talking about?  [best friend] didn't betray the hero, he fought alongside him in the final battle."

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Rest assured, the choices you will make depending on Good or Bad won't be too obvious, depending on the discussions you make in the main story will not easily show that you are doing the right or wrong thing, We the team intend for people thinking about the next choice they make before mashing the buttons, we want them to make difficult choices which can effect many things in good and bad ways..

 

[kj3400]

Interesting, I was thinking of a similar system for my game. Mine may be a bit complicated due to the convoluted nature of my storyline though. Although mine isn't more evil vs good either, it's just whether you did a certain event at a particular time instead of another, or doing both events at the same time, etc.

 

[SLEEP]

Morality systems are very simplistic, very game-y things that makes it near impossible to tell a morally challenging story, but enables more involved roleplaying (as in literally, putting yourself in a character's shoes to play their role). Invariably say more about what the creator values as moral than anything else. They're ok, but yeah, there's a lot of problems.

 

[West Mains]

Karma systems can be fun but dont fall into the trap that Fable fell into whereby the only rewarding karma is "good karma." 

 

[Eschaton]

I'm against karma meters.  However, I will counter the karma meter with an "approval" or "affection" meter on NPCs and factions.  They are more or less the same thing, but... meh...

 

[Centipede]

I got a Karma meter for my project. It affects certain spells and weapons, plus grants bonuses to certain wearable items. Not only that, it determines the ending. It's the sort of game where you have to use your conscience if you want the best ending, because there are no clues of where you might do wrong.

 

[ArchaicSpoon]

It can potentially work, but it needs to be well-done.I mean, how are the player's actions impacting his karma both game-play wise and story-wise? Are good-aligned players more rewarded than evil-aligned ones? If there's glaring balance issues then it suddenly becomes less of a matter making decisions via role-playing and more of picking the most rewards. And as other's said above, karma systems generally tend to turn the whole game into more of a black-and-white issue rather then enrich the story-line. Personally I tend to prefer the faction system rather than a good/evil system as it allows the player to explore and contribute towards the conflict in the game without it suddenly turning it into a overused good-vs-evil story.