Let's speak about VisuStella term of service as Plugins developpers

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Kupotepo

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The VisuStella team is a legal air tight with their agreement. lol I think they might have a lawyer create this user agreement lol.

can the code fixer get the credit of fixing the problems? I think they get the credit for doing that.
 
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nio kasgami

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I got some answer from the visuStella studio on twitter it wasn't truly what I wasn't expecting but they was saying in very short :

In simple to much ass stole their plugin they got annoyed so they inputted that.
For now, I am just asking clarifications with what they mean and asked if they can show us a clear example of what they meant in their TOS.
since this was the section that seemed very confusing.
 

TheoAllen

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It was a year ago when that happened. Apparently you haven't come back yet. So I can see why they put that. Although it's a bit restricting.
 

Jenova

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I got some answer from the visuStella studio on twitter it wasn't truly what I wasn't expecting but they was saying in very short :

In simple to much ass stole their plugin they got annoyed so they inputted that.
For now, I am just asking clarifications with what they mean and asked if they can show us a clear example of what they meant in their TOS.
since this was the section that seemed very confusing.
This doesn't surprise me. More then half the plugins became paywalled once that happened. They are taking precautions against this type of event happening again.

Honestly: I don't like it, but I understand and plead no contest.
 

nio kasgami

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I spoke with them a little more clearly and they didn't give me an 'direct' answer but they did say it was possible to do a patch who doesn't touch the library. which I assume is from classic Alias or injection.

regardless I will try to support the VisuStella library. Yes it's restricting a lots, but as I said I don't hate the studio it just surprised me / shocked me on the spot since it does complicate wanting me to support it.
 

TWings

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Although, I don't exactly agree about the commission part. I always consider producing a piece of code is a service rather than a product. The end product could be free, but people who code the patch provide the service which is worth paying.
Forbiding people from taking commissions for patches is pretty ridiculous indeed.
People don't work for free. Heck even Visustella staff is paid to port Yanfly's plugins.

In any case I really doubt it would stand much ground legally. Visustella would still have to provide proof of ownership over the code beeing used (which can be pretty tricky imo).
 

DoubleX

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On the personal level, if someone wants me to fix compatibility issues between my plugins and the Visustella ones, I'll just give VisuStella my snippets as the fixes(I'll also announce that I won't fix any compatibility issues with any commercial VisuStella plugins as I'm not supposed to have access for any of them), and it's up to VisuStella to decide whether they'll use them(and I won't even ask VisuStella to credit me either) :p
I've done this sometimes in both VXA and MV and they worked most of the time, and as long as the compatibility issues are indeed fixed and my script/plugin users are happy with that, to me the problems' solved.

On the community level, I think it'll end up most plugins being incompatible with the VisaStella ones sooner or later(VisuStella vs Others), and this has both pros and cons:
1. VisuStella can better protect themselves from scammers using the compatibility patches as excuses to steal codes and profits(some users will give their projects with commercial plugins to other plugin developers not supposedly to have access to those plugins, and it'd be very hard to stop those plugin developers to steal codes this way if they want and very hard to prove that those users have leaked those codes)
2. Some plugin users will finally broaden their horizons and stop unknowingly restricting themselves to the Yanfly stereotype(this stereotype can be good or bad depending on circumstances and knowingly restrict themselves can actually be wise), causing some plugin developers(especially those making plugins having features covered by VisuStella) to have a bigger chance to have more popularity, reputations and users
3. Some plugin developers will finally have strong enough reasons, especially in the eyes of plugin users, to not address compatibility issues with VisuStella plugins(by quoting the ToS to the plugin users), as sometimes addressing them are hellish nightmares(I've experienced this a few times when working with Yanfly MV plugins, causing me hours of headache when the issue could've solved within minutes without pains, but that's understandable as there' no way for Yanfly to maintain high code quality when he/she's to write so many plugins in such a short time)
1. VisuStella will definitely have fewer users than it could be
2. Some plugin users will be very uncomfortable with dealing the fact that they can't have the best of both worlds for them(use tons of VisuStella plugins to cover most of their needs and some other plugins to cover the rest)
3. Some plugin users will insist to extreme lengths that some plugin developers must address compatibility issues with VisuStella plugins no matter what, and those plugin developers don't want to lose too many plugin users on one hand, but also don't want to contact VisuStella just for fixing compatibility issues and appease those plugin users before VisuStella approves the fixes on the other
I personally consider this harmful in the short term(the community will need at least weeks to adapt painfully) but beneficial in the long term, because I want to see the plugin developer community to not have just a single superpower(which is unsustainable anyway), but at least several major players/groups comparable to each other, leading to more diversity and perhaps even healthier competitions causing ever increasing plugin qualities and number of excellent choices on the user level, and this VisuStella ToS can help this to be realized if we're to treat this as a golden chance as well.

That's unlike in MV, where Yanfly had overworked him/herself due to having to fulfill too large of the portions in all plugin user demands(talking about at least hundreds of requests), many plugin developers had given up due to having a feeling that they'll always have next to no users no matter what they do and how hard they try, and many plugin users missing options that can be even better for them instead of just throwing dozens of Yanfly plugins without thought and expect things to work magically(and even Yanfly him/herself has been actively against this but still failed), causing the majority of the plugin developer and user community to lose more than what they had to, and gain less than what they could've(i.e., there's a massive mismatch between plugin demands and plugin supplies).
It's not to say that the situation in MV's bad(it's still very, very fantastic), but I think this VisuStella ToS can actually make the MZ plugin development and user community even better, even though the long term benefits will only outclass the short term harms after quite a while :)

To conclude, while I personally don't like this ToS, I can we can actually utilize(but we're by no way obligated to do this though) this to make MZ an even better place than it already is :D

P.S.: Even if I were to take this matter pessimistically instead of optimistically, I still think that VisuStella has at least announced this exceptionally strict ToS even before MZ's released, and it's at least better than paywalling many of the previously free plugins, like what happened to Yanfly in the MV era ;)
 
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Kupotepo

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@DoubleX, so how many of your MV plugins makers, are just ported over to MZ? Then, there are many alternatives then? Hopefully, you ported MV to MZ. :cutesmile:

I do not think the plugin users care about who created the plugins as long as it works and not interfere with other plugins. When the user has to play a game of which plugin they need most.
The coders here have to play let pretend that not any plugins users are the advantage coders and tried to make the plugins easy to use as possible lol. That is another issue that coders have to face of why people prefer to use or not to use the plugin.
 
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Seacliff

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And here I was excited to see a bunch of developer working on plugins together and seeing what they come up with

Now, if something breaks, no patch unless from official source, which, in my experience, wont happen unless you pester them or you're part of a sub club.

Sad days ahead.
Which is unfortunate, because this seems to be in line with the 'entitlement' Plugin developers cite as one of the reasons that caused them to leave. Meaning it's part of why we are in this predicament to begin with.

For their own sake, they shouldn't have this kind of strict guideline.
 

DoubleX

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@DoubleX, so how many of your MV plugins maker? You are just ported over to MZ, right. Then, there is many alternative then? Hopefully you ported MV to MZ. :cutesmile:
While I'm still just a small potato having almost no users(and thus have no chance to be one of the game changers), I think there are many other very popular plugin developers having tons of reputation and users, and the following names are what I can come up with(by no means exhaustive as it'd be just impossible):
1. Victor Sant(very popular in VXA and MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
2. Tsukihime(very popular in VXA and MV at least)
3. Shaz(very popular in VXA and MV at least)
4. TheoAllen(very popular in VXA at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
5. Galenmereth(very popular in MV at least)
6. Galv(very popular in VXA at least)
7. Lecode(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
8. Yami(very popular in VXA at least, but don't know if he/she's part of VisuStella now)
9. Cutievirus(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
10. Pheonix KageDesu(earning a hell lot from donations, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
11. Moghunter(perhaps one of the best plugin developer ever)
12. Dekita(very popular in VXA and MV at least)
13. Khas(very popular in VXA and MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
14. Hudell(very popular in VXA and MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
15. Quasi(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
16. OcRam(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
17. DK(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
18. Rexal(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
19. RyanBram(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
20. DreamX(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
21. Masked(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
22. LTN Games(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
23. Frogboy(very popular in MV at least, but not sure if he/she's coming back in MZ)
Actually, just have a look on the released scripts and plugins, and you'll see many plugin developers having plugins with several hundreds of replies and several hundreds of thousands of views(checking a particular donation platform and you'll see some guys earning several hundreds of USD per month).

So I think there will be no shortage of plugin developers both being able and willing to be one of the most popular having tons of reputations, plugins and their users, all working together and/or on their own to make use of this golden opportunity to reduce or even remove the mismatch between plugin demands and supplies(regardless of whether it's just for their own sakes or not), give more better and diverse options to plugin users, and even lessen the insane workload of the VisuStella team(they'll most certainly overwork to death eventually if they instead choose to continue walking the MV path).
Actually, I won't be surprised if the VisuStella team had similar considerations as well(other than just trying to protect themselves), as I still believe that Yanfly's trying to prioritize the greater good of the RM community above as many other things as he/she can(and I think even he/she realized that his/her MV approach just won't be sustainable no matter how good it's otherwise) :)
 
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nio kasgami

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@DoubleX this maybe the only long thread answer I bother reading since it's simple and informative. ( I am bad with big wall of text lol)

I do see this on on a good spot I don't plan to make EVERY plugin I create compatible with VisuStella because...why would I make a TitleScreen Plugin compatible with their plugins if...it's overwrite and use none of their ability xD?

Also Quasis will not come back and I am taking over his QPlugins port he showed not interest to come back to RM he prefers Unity.
MogHunter is coming back,
Hudel is coming back
LTN I saw him around he might come back
Galen showed interest.
TheoAllen is still unsure.

As for myself I do plan to jump straight into it and push the plugins. Although, I don't expect my plugins t be the easiest to use.
I showed it a lots with my InnManager having Custom function handling.
 

Jenova

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Which is unfortunate, because this seems to be in line with the 'entitlement' Plugin developers cite as one of the reasons that caused them to leave. Meaning it's part of why we are in this predicament to begin with.

For their own sake, they shouldn't have this kind of strict guideline.
Wait. Entitlement on whos part? Mine? Because if it is, I by no means, expect plugins from anyone.

No sir. In fact, I find it as a blessing from people who take time out of their day to do something that they, not only, might not want any payment for, but sometimes don't even want credit for.

To be humble, in that degree, at least deserves a nod of approval and respect for.

Plugin devs are gods amongst men (who work hard as well, but mayyyybe not in that sense).

In any event, even if we got no plugins at all, like ever, from anyone, for MZ, just having the program itself means a lot.

:cool:
 

Galenmereth

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Personally I don't care about the monetization aspect at all. For me the major issue here is having to ask for permission to implement compatibility fixes that by necessity may have to use some of their code (that definition is way too vague), and on principle: Even if I have no intention to bother with donations, why should I be restricted from getting donations for a compatibility fix, which is just as much part of a plugin's development as its other aspects?

Obviously trying to enforce such terms legally is probably impossible, but they can make your life difficult by, say, removing your plugin post on the forums. Mere speculation as we don't know how and if it will be enforced at all, but just the audacity to try to control how other developers do their work out of some misguided fear of having their code plagiarized does not sit well with me. And to be blunt, this isn't going to stop any of said bad actors that copy and "steal" code, because people who do plagiarize other people's work without credit have no honor and won't respect said terms anyway.

This ends up punishing the people who never plagiarized their stuff to begin with, by adding additional unnecessary bureaucratic complexity on top of the job of trying to be compatible with what is often messy, ever-changing code to begin with. More likely than not, it won't be worth the hassle for any of us.
 

DoubleX

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This ends up punishing the people who never plagiarized their stuff to begin with, by adding additional unnecessary bureaucratic complexity on top of the job of trying to be compatible with what is often messy, ever-changing code to begin with. More likely than not, it won't be worth the hassle for any of us.
Alternatively, this might cause some of the plugin developers desperately wanting to address compatibility issues with VisuStella plugins to end up being inside the VisuStella team(and perhaps getting paid as well), while still maintaining the brands of those plugin developers themselves via some other plugins made by them but not under the VisuStella name, causing the team to eventually have dozens of plugin developers and several hundred high quality, powerful and flexible plugins(I'm just daydreaming of course) :p
 

Zeriab

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There appears to be a severe lack of IANAL notes in this topic.

As for the commissions part. It's fine. Your time can still be commissioned just fine.
If you happen to develop a patch during your commissioned hours? Well, that needs to be free.

As for the coder fallacy of trying to execute a TOS as code. IANAL, but I am pretty sure that's not how it actually works.
 

DoubleX

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If a plugin ToS needs a lawyer to be properly understood, I'd say that it can create even greater problems, because IANAL applies to most plugin developers and most of them don't have access to lawyers(and even if they do, I wonder if they'd care VisuStella so much to ask the lawyers to explain the VisuStella ToS to them) :)
 

Seacliff

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Wait. Entitlement on whos part? Mine? Because if it is, I by no means, expect plugins from anyone.
No no. I wasn't blaming you for anything. I was referring to the situation you were referring to.

If we are to only reasonably expect patches from the official source, that's the place most people are inevitably going to go with their requests. Regardless if it's a compatibility patch with another popular creator, an additional modifier that could have reasonably been there to begin with, etc. And in Yanfly's or Victor's case they easily had thousands of individual requests.

However, they at least didn't have to be the ones to do it, people making said requests can go on the forums here and request it for any plugin creator to accomplish, which works well when the request can be done with just a few lines of code. But with all these restrictions, everyone's going to have to go to VisuStella directly to make these requests.

It's going to be frustrating for creators because I can see already VisuStella is already disabling comments on Youtube, but whenever a platform is open to send any kind of feedback to VisuStella, be it a thread they make on this forum or their own website, it's going to be overwhelmed with requests. More so than Yanfly or Victor had to deal with because of these restrictions.
 

DoubleX

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It's going to be frustrating for creators because I can see already VisuStella is already disabling comments on Youtube, but whenever a platform is open to send any kind of feedback to VisuStella, be it a thread they make on this forum or their own website, it's going to be overwhelmed with requests. More so than Yanfly or Victor had to deal with because of these restrictions.
My wild guess is that fellow plugin developers will have to strictly follow some well-established procedures, as it's done when Yanfly was facing hundreds of individual requests, and the format might be something like this:
1. Your plugin name(they need to know this to add it into their list)
2. Involved VisuStella plugin name(I think this one's self-explanatory enough)
3. Brief description of the compatibility issue(they need this to quickly decide whether this issue's serious enough to worth their time)
4. Steps to reproduce the compatibility issue(they need this to verify that the compatibility fix does indeed work)
5. The compatibility fix with a brief explanation on how it fixes the root cause of the issue(I guess there will be additional regulations on this, so those just throwing tons of garbage towards VisuStella won't be even entertained in order not to waste their time)
In that case, those not following the standard will already be filtered out automatically, thus reducing some of their workloads and saving us some time from waiting several days only to find that our compatibility fixes are rejected.

My bold prediction is that, most plugin developers will either forget about compatibility with VisuStella, leading to increased diversity of excellent choices from at least several major players/groups instead of a single superpower having questionable sustainability(it's not sustainable in MV after all), or go so far to try to join the VisuStella team(and get paid) to have their plugins outside of the VisuStella names compatible with the VisuStella ones, leading to an even greater(and unprecedented) single superpower being able to cover most needs of most plugin users very quickly(albeit with undesiable code qualities).
For those not trying to join VisuStella but still wanting to have their plugins compatible with the VisuStella ones, I can only wish you good luck :)
 

??????

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I personally have not been planning compatibility with any visustella plugins. I intend to give anyone who asks for it a direct no.

IMHO, the entire visustella thing is a complete joke. Its very clearly an attempt to make the visustella 'brand' the default for rm users, which in itself would be completely fine - IF the people running the brand didn't work directly for degica and have insider information. Because of that fact alone is just seems to me like people used that information to further their own greed fuelled endeavour.

The whole situation reminds me of the whole 'apple - right to repair' debate going on the past few years. Basically, there are people who have a level of authority within the established field and are saying 'the way we do things is the right way, the way you do it is unofficial, and therefor inferior, and if you want to have an official badge, you have to be a part of our brand where we will take credit and reap the majority of rewards and praise for your work'.


Don't get me wrong, im not hating, I personally care very little about the whole thing. I'm just using my brain and the information I have to understand whats going on, and from where I'm sitting, its quite clear - they don't want you to be making their plugins better unless you have the 'official badge' and are helping to drive traffic to the visustella itch store page..
 

KoriCongo

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My bold prediction is that, most plugin developers will either forget about compatibility with VisuStella, leading to increased diversity of excellent choices from at least several major players/groups instead of a single superpower having questionable sustainability
That is a level of 4D-Chess that really could have been resolved by just making less plugins and not taking requests, pushing people towards other plugin developers. Not making a programmer mafia...

Push comes to shove, most of these developers will just make clones of the projects VisuStella makes for their own engine over making compatibility patches and risk their own clout being overshadowed by the same people that already has a history of doing thus. Fundamentally, the fact there is a team of VisuStella developers with a long history of making well-respected plugins will be far easier to use, have more support, and have more quality than any of their projects would be. You've seen it in the MV era, and I highly doubt it will change. So VS wins no matter what.

This is a very insane situation that I could have not seen coming.
 
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