Let's talk formulas *chalkboards*

[B.Ultimus]

When you see that little formula box, what do you normally put in it?  Is it a simple ATK - DEF  formula for you, or is it something more...how you say...complex?  I'm sure a lot of you have some ideas, so let's pool it in together!

Right now I'm experimenting with a little more of a 'controlled system', where attack and defense gives a percentage of a base damage value, something of which I'm currently putting in the luck stat.  This allows for a combined set of values that can do a maximum of twice the base damage, or a minimum of 5% of base damage.  Attack and Defense scales accordingly, making it vital to keep levels and equipment up to date, but grants a lovely bonus to those who over prepare without getting so crazy it isn't fun anymore. 

I've been debating attaching attack and defense to equipment only instead of on characters themselves since the scaling would get very crazy if someone leveled their attack and base damage at the same time, effectively providing bonuses to already increased damage.

I was going to type a huge thesis formula, but realized it still needs some work, but in practice is a decent idea.

What about you?  What are your thoughts?

 

[Shaz]

I've moved this thread to VX Ace Support (since you don't use formulae in the other makers). Please be sure to post your threads in the correct forum next time. Thank you.


Do you realize we already have a very detailed thread on this? I'll leave this open though, as it seems to be a bit more theory - "what is its potential" in nature, rather than the practical "how to do it" of that tutorial thread.

 

[B.Ultimus]

Ah, yea this wasn't mean to be a "Hey, I don't know how to use formulas, help please!" thread. But more of a discussion of what users feel is successful.  I felt this would of been a theoretical discussion of why one way works better than another (in opinion).  I might of just worded this incorrectly

EDIT:  Also, I was aware of that thread.  Fomar's custom formula tutorial has helped me create some great and crazy stuff, a lot of which I'm doing now.

 

[Jarrad]

I prefer a system with different factors for variance. I always keep the variance set at 0 and go wild and experiment, My attack formula for the most basic weapon, swords is (a.atk*4+a.agi/4+rand(a.luk/10))-(b.def*2+rand(b.luk/10)) It adds variance on both sides. Also I have weapons that do largely random damage (Axes/Hammers) and weapons that disregard defense (Spears) but suffer from enemies having higher agility than the user. It adds strategy to how you equip your party.

 

[B.Ultimus]

@Jarrad  I try to keep my variance as minimal as possible with my formulas...I like to keep variance at a very low number (anywhere from 1-5), so that there is still some 'flavor' with the numbers.  I also dislike critical hits and missed in battles, just because I feel in some cases it can skew a battle.  When the random generator is not on your side, it can be very frustrating for the user.

PS: I love Game Grumps <3

 

[Jarrad]

I change variance up just for the strategy part. If you're fighting an enemy that is tanky it may be better to use a hammer on it since you can still do insane damage at times, but if the enemy is more of a killing machine it may be better to use a weapon that sacrifices that chance for constant damage (In this case spears, since they all vary 2%-5% based on agility). If an enemy is slow a piercing weapon like bows that uses agility instead of defense to calculate variance would be better.

Also I was hoping there would be Grump fans here, I love the grumps.

 

[B.Ultimus]

That make sense, and you add a very unique style to your weapons instead of, this deals more damage while this deals less.  For me, I would probably make a weapon that, while it didn't deal as much damage, it ignored a majority of the defense.  Your theory with variance is good for strategy since it gives you a chance to deal extra damage, but for my game styles I've been wanting to leave less things to chance, and give more control back to the user.

 

[Shades]

Still working on my first game. My current basic attack formula is a.atk*2/b.def with variance of 50 and crits enabled. This puts a premium on defensive capabilites and survivability. To balance the difficulty (based on feedback from my gaming buddy who was helping me alpha test) I am trying out a script that restores HP and MP when a character levels -- cuts back on having to spend all the loot visiting the inn.

Seems to be working so far, but current testing feels a tad easy to me. I'm a hard core dungeon crawl fan, though, so we'll see what my gaming buddy says about the rebalance.

Edit: I guess I should have also noted that I keep my numbers low and tight so that every single point matters.

 

[Jarrad]

In my system there are also skill cooldowns, and stat boosts. I've made sure that stat boosts are almost essential to survival. You will be punished for messing up drastically.

 

[Lowell]

More formula's are a simple a.atk * x - b.def formula.

With things such as equipment and stats boosting the players overall abilities I have to make sure the Monsters abilities are at a range that factors these things in.

 

[B.Ultimus]

@Shades  I liked that you used division instead of basic addition/subtraction.  The variance of 50 with crits seems like the numbers may go out of control.  I'm not sure how variance is calculated, but I always assumed it was a percentage?  And I know crits deal a massive amount of damage... I wish crits were controlled easier.  You've also entered the slump of game design in which you need to figure out who your audience is: the hard core dungeon crawler fan who finds reward by getting through a very challenging scenario...or the 'casual' player who turns away from that, and would rather turn to something easier, yet fun, where you don't have to grind to win. 

@Jarrad Sounds like you're going the more hard core route, which is fine.  For my games, I try to avoid permanent punishments, since if a player goofs up, and they are stuck with the stat allocation that they made, they'll feel like they wasted their time, and sometimes will quit a game because of it.

@Lowell It's the tried and true method, but also something I'm trying to move away from, but you're right: its so much more then simply stick a number in and see what happens.  A lot of calculations go into it.  Excel Spreadsheets are your friends.

Finally got mine to work:

So as I was mentioning before, I use attack and defense values as more of a percentage to be applied to base damage.  If your attack is higher then their defense, you deal a percentage more damage depending on the difference.  If their defense is higher then your attack, you deal a percentage less.  For base damage, I use Luk.  If an ability is suppose to do more or less damage, I either divide luk by a bigger number, or begin multiplying the value.

(a.luk / 2.0) * ((a.atk * 1.0) / (b.def * 1.0) / 2)

 

[Jarrad]

My punishment isn't really permanent, if you mess up in battle you will probably come out of it with a lot less HP and resources than you should. Which can make it harder to get out of a dungeon, but also teaches them how important a good strategy is.

 

[B.Ultimus]

True.  Is there a way to reset the stats?

 

[Shades]

@Ultimus -- True. I'm happier with the hard core challenge myself; my gaming buddy's perspective is interesting, but she's not used to turn-based dungeon crawlers and is currently in the learning curve for this one, so... she may or may not enjoy it once she gets the feel for the play style. She seems to be warming up to it, but we're tweaking things to try and find a happy medium. 

I may wind up pushing out two separate versions for testing and then figuring out a way to include both modes. There's definitely some important decisions that need making there.

Edit: Also, I agree that I may need to cut the variance sharply or eliminate it and just rely on crits for the unpredictability of combat. Some of those numbers do get pretty wild.  

 

[Kes]

The variance of 50 with crits seems like the numbers may go out of control.  I'm not sure how variance is calculated, but I always assumed it was a percentage?  And I know crits deal a massive amount of damage... I wish crits were controlled easier. 

Actually, it's a very easy thing to change the critical rate.  The critical rate is attack x 3., and it is set in one of the default scripts.  

it is perfectly possible to change the 3 to any number you wish - the only hitch is I've mislaid my note of which script and which line it is.  But it may come to light, or perhaps someone reading this post will remember and post it.

I agree with your caution about a variance of 50.  While I think it's perfectly right and proper to make a game challenging to the player, something like this can easily tip over, and the player can then end up feeling that they have been set up to fail.  It also makes balancing battles that much more difficult.

 

[B.Ultimus]

Actually, it's a very easy thing to change the critical rate.  The critical rate is attack x 3., and it is set in one of the default scripts.  

it is perfectly possible to change the 3 to any number you wish - the only hitch is I've mislaid my note of which script and which line it is.  But it may come to light, or perhaps someone reading this post will remember and post it.

Oh please do!  Thanks to my coding classes I've been taken, I'm much more comfortable around scripting, so if you do find where it's located, I may use that in the future

 

[Kes]

Okay, it's in the script Game_Battler

#-------------------------------------------------------------------------- # * Apply Critical #-------------------------------------------------------------------------- def apply_critical(damage) damage * 3 endChange that 3 to whatever you want.