Level caps per chapter

[SOC]

So I'm working on a game that I have separated into chapters, and I was thinking about adding a level cap to each chapter so the bosses could be balance around each level cap. For example, I could put a level cap of 5 for the first chapter and balance the chapter boss around a level 5 party. This would mean the battle is designed for strategy and complexity rather than just grinding infinitely, and it would also take some pressure off the players about feeling worried about being over or under leveled. Chapter 2 could be level 10, ect..

What do you guys think of this idea? I always hated playing through RPGs and feeling pressued about being over or under leveled, and really enjoyed boss fights when I know they were specifically designed for my level in mind.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I rather have the option to grind if I want to...

as long as you set the boss to go around at level 5, and make sure that the party (without grinding) will be around at that level by the boss fight, then it will be fine...

because after all, if I over leveled, then it's because of my choice...

if you want to put a "cap", I'd suggest just making it such that at levels above the "cap", the enemies on that area give considerably less exp, thus discouraging grinding...

or don't have random encounters at all, that way you have complete control over the character's progress...

as a player, I just simply don't like the idea of having my level capped at a certain area and still have random encounters and such, coz at that point, the random encounters just become a nuisance...

 

[Berylstone]

So I'm working on a game that I have separated into chapters, and I was thinking about adding a level cap to each chapter so the bosses could be balance around each level cap. For example, I could put a level cap of 5 for the first chapter and balance the chapter boss around a level 5 party. This would mean the battle is designed for strategy and complexity rather than just grinding infinitely, and it would also take some pressure off the players about feeling worried about being over or under leveled. Chapter 2 could be level 10, ect..

What do you guys think of this idea? I always hated playing through RPGs and feeling pressued about being over or under leveled, and really enjoyed boss fights when I know they were specifically designed for my level in mind.

I would work on scaling your game or adding a new way for the character to grow stronger that doesn't require adding level caps every chapter.  That way you can avoid the age-old problem with RPGs where things become either too easy or too difficult without restricting the player to do it.  Because forcing players to fight while being level-capped may seem like a waste of time to them and discourage them from playing. 

 

[SOC]

What if I was able to balance it so that you reach the chapter boss just after you hit level cap on a very consistent basis? So that you would have very few encounters between then and the boss, and regardless, you would still get gold from encounters as well which I could make sure to be put in fun and interesting ways. Putting a level cap on enemies' and making them give very low exp. by scaling, wouldn't that just make you feel like encounters are a nuisance, too?

I guess I could come up with fun ways to use gold for those that do prefer grinding without taking away from the balance and challenge of the game. But I really like the challenge of using age-old RPG mechanics in interesting ways to keep the game fun for today's world. At least, most age-old mechanics.

Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate them.

 

[amerk]

I have to agree with adiktuzmiko. I'm not a big fan of caps, since it removes the option to grind if I want to, anymore than I like to be forced to grind when I don't want to. But I have to wonder, if this day and age of RM games, is it really a problem? Most people I know seem to be against forced grinding anyways, outside of the retro players, so I don't see there is much need to go out of your way to control this.

However, if it is a concern, I recommend any of the following:

1. Once they reach a certain level for a given dungeon, turn off encounters for all but the middle of the dungeon. This ensures that most people who do choose to grind won't want to backtrack out of a long dungeon to heal up. The problem with this is it can be exhausting trying to keep up with all the events to control this, even more so if encounters are touch versus random.

2. Use a script that slowly lowers the EXP drops of the enemy the more levels you gain. I've not used this method, though, so I really can't say how easy it is to use.

3. Use a script that scales the enemy stats to the character's level. Another option I have not yet tried, but might be worth exploring.

4. Follow Touch's method of balanced EXP drops up until Level 5, and then make the EXP curve jump. This way, people might still grind to Level 6 or 7 (for a slightly more comfortable boss experience), but anything more than that would take too long and not be worth the time, encouraging them to face off against the boss and go to the next area that offers higher EXP drops. Do this for each area. The problem here is you would need a script or a means to adjust EXP drops to something better than what the default allows.

5. Reward players for fighting the boss at minimum levels by giving them an extra boost in EXP, gold, or items. Easily done with events since boss fights will typically need to be evented, and you can have two possible boss enemies and troops in the database that offer the difference in EXP, Gold, or items (or all 3). use a conditional in the event that determines the primary character level, and if that character is at the minimum or below, trigger the boss with the higher rewards. If it's above the minimum, trigger the one with the lower rewards. This might encourage players to reach the boss at certain levels versus grinding.

Slightly off topic, but I really hope the next iteration of RM really explores the possibility of adding options to levels. Including a more user friendly system of adding our own EXP curve, scaling our enemy stats to our levels at a speed we can control (ie., I'd like my enemies to increase their stats by 1/2 of the current stats each time I level up), and even by including more leveling options (allowing us to level up each individual stat, levelling up items, skills, etc) really opens the door for interesting battles.

 

[Andar]

Depending on the type of your game, a variable level cap based on something (no matter wether it's chapter or something else) can be a good idea, I plan on something similiar.


In a story-type linear game such a cap is a rather bad idea. Simply because in a linear game, you can balance everything without artificial caps and using such a cap will be interpreted by many player as "the developer didn't want to balance the game correctly".


In an exploration-type game it's much more difficult to balance different zones (that might be travelled several times in the story) against the player, and grinding might become a much worser problem simply because a player might not realise that he's already grinding (because he skipped a different map).


In these cases, a map- or chapter-based level cap is often better received, simply because the players also know that balancing an open game is much more difficult...

 

[Fomar0153]

In Search of Dragons (not in the current demo) has a system where enemies give diminishing experience as you level up but at the same time encounters stop when you're 2 levels off receiving 0 experience, and that's the level the boss is balanced around. So if players want they can grind 2 additional levels (there's an option in the menu to start a battle without running round in circles).


Edit: Probably should have said it's also only 100 exp to the next level each time.

 

[Zechnophobe]

So I'm working on a game that I have separated into chapters, and I was thinking about adding a level cap to each chapter so the bosses could be balance around each level cap. For example, I could put a level cap of 5 for the first chapter and balance the chapter boss around a level 5 party. This would mean the battle is designed for strategy and complexity rather than just grinding infinitely, and it would also take some pressure off the players about feeling worried about being over or under leveled. Chapter 2 could be level 10, ect..

What do you guys think of this idea? I always hated playing through RPGs and feeling pressued about being over or under leveled, and really enjoyed boss fights when I know they were specifically designed for my level in mind.

I used a very similar system in a DnD campaign I ran. Each chapter of the game represented one player level, so you leveled up after each chapter, and not in between.

If you want to kick to the curb normal experience, that could be an interesting way to go. You'd completely remove the concept of grinding for xp.

That said, level caps in an xp system can feel very bad to a player, as you are limiting a reward for them. If you use random encounter style battles, they will feel very tedious if the player isn't even gaining experience from them anymore!

Those are the things I'd consider when making your decision.

 

[Berylstone]

What if I was able to balance it so that you reach the chapter boss just after you hit level cap on a very consistent basis? So that you would have very few encounters between then and the boss, and regardless, you would still get gold from encounters as well which I could make sure to be put in fun and interesting ways. Putting a level cap on enemies' and making them give very low exp. by scaling, wouldn't that just make you feel like encounters are a nuisance, too?

I guess I could come up with fun ways to use gold for those that do prefer grinding without taking away from the balance and challenge of the game. But I really like the challenge of using age-old RPG mechanics in interesting ways to keep the game fun for today's world. At least, most age-old mechanics.

Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate them.

When I said scaling I was talking about your bosses scaling to the player's level.  That way they will be a challenge no matter what level the player is or how much they grind, since that seemed to be your main concern from reading your post.  I wasn't talking about limiting the experience.

If you are intent on introducing level caps though, I would suggest giving the player lots of different things to level up.  That way they don't run out of things to gain experience on.  Otherwise the game may start to feel static.  And that's usually when people start to lose interests.

 

[Tai_MT]

I have never liked the "diminishing returns" on XP or "level caps".  My reasons may or may not be "obvious" to other programmers or gamers.  I don't like "diminishing returns" because it tends to quit rewarding players who are spending a lot of time exploring or talking to people or looking for things.  Pokémon has recently implemented this and it's done nothing but annoy the crap out of me.  Getting to level 100 has never been more difficult because of this feature...  On top of which, these diminishing returns on XP make it difficult to get beyond what the programmer intended you to do.  At which point, I always argue, "If you don't want me above a certain level by the time I reach the end of this area or by the time I reach this boss, then why do you have a level progression system at all!?  Just assign me skills and stats as I complete the story instead!"  And honestly, that's the better way to handle it instead of "diminished returns" or "level cap".

If you want me to be a certain amount of powerful (but not over or under leveled) for an encounter or what-have-you, then you've already decided that you don't need or want a level up system in the first place.  You've effectively decided to limit my choices in how I play your game and if I don't like how limiting YOUR idea of how I should play is...  Tough.  I either quit playing or learn to live with it.

It might honestly be why I spent less time with Pokémon Black and White than I did with previous installments.  Diminishing XP really takes all the fun out of leveling up.  Level caps tend to do the same thing.

So, here's what you do.  Just hand out skills and stats as your players complete things in the game and do things instead.  It's basically what you're doing anyway.  You're already dictating to the players how you want them to play your game with level caps and diminishing xp gains...  Just... get rid of the illusion of choice with it.  Get rid of the whole "Oh yeah, sure you can reach level 50 in my game...  But not before I decide you should get there!"  It's somewhat condescending.

Also, I know I already sound like a jerk so far...  But..  I have one more thing to add.

If a player is really that worried about over or under leveling their character, they're really not focused on what's important in a game.  That, or the battle system is rather poorly designed to begin with.  In a great battle system, being "over leveled" or "under leveled" doesn't matter a whole lot unless it's a large gap of levels.  Strategy in a fight should account for 90% of wins or losses in a battle system.  If it doesn't, it's your battle system that's broken and not whether or not a player is over or under leveled.

After all, all you have to do is go to Youtube and look up "low level run of (insert RPG here)" to see that strategy in combat and play are extremely important.  These runs also teach players and watchers that levels don't mean jack in the game if you have superior strategy.

 

[Harmill]

I agree with Tai_MT. I very much dislike diminishing EXP rewards as you level up. I feel like EXP values automatically diminish as you level up since you need an increasing amount of EXP to level up each time. That 10 EXP you got from the Slime would stay at 10 EXP no matter what level you are, but the fact that you might need 300 EXP to level up, and then 500 EXP for the next level up, is already making that 10 EXP worth less. It annoys me when games try to diminish that amount even further by actually modifying that 10 EXP itself! If you're worried about someone being overlevelled, you should examine the growth rate of your stats. If you simply get too many stats on each level up, it only takes 1 or 2 levels above the recommendation before you are considered "overpowered". If you get less stats per level up, the Player must level up several more times before it becomes noticeable. And course, you should also be examining how you design your enemies, since there's a lot of ways you can give enemies (and especially bosses) unique properties that require more thought to defeat than just "My ATK stat is 20 pts higher than it should be in this area so I can just mash attack them to win!".

 

[cybrim]

So I'm working on a game that I have separated into chapters, and I was thinking about adding a level cap to each chapter so the bosses could be balance around each level cap. For example, I could put a level cap of 5 for the first chapter and balance the chapter boss around a level 5 party. This would mean the battle is designed for strategy and complexity rather than just grinding infinitely, and it would also take some pressure off the players about feeling worried about being over or under leveled. Chapter 2 could be level 10, ect..

What do you guys think of this idea? I always hated playing through RPGs and feeling pressued about being over or under leveled, and really enjoyed boss fights when I know they were specifically designed for my level in mind.

Dude the answer is right in front of you!

Create a variable "main character's level"= main actor's level (all levels usually are around this).

with the boss event have it change to a different page within the event when the variable hits between certain numbers. Use a different "troop" as the boss fight with the same graphics per level section of the variable which controls the page.

This way the player can choose whether to grind or not, at times bosses will be more challenging. and as you progress you will need less and less event pages because your characters will (unless you give no XP) level up. This system will be a lot like Final Fantasy 8. there should even be a way to make normal enemies do this: The easiest way is to completely copy the maps you are using and auto teleport after area transition where the teleport to location is variable dependent on the "main character's level" variable discussed earlier.

It has been done before but it might be what you need to achieve your goals... this makes grinding pointless... unless enemies that only appear when you are at high levels for the area drop items that will unlock something like gear, a unique dungeon, a poodle sidekick with psychic powers...ect.  

 

[SOC]

Dude the answer is right in front of you!

Create a variable "main character's level"= main actor's level (all levels usually are around this).

with the boss event have it change to a different page within the event when the variable hits between certain numbers. Use a different "troop" as the boss fight with the same graphics per level section of the variable which controls the page.

This way the player can choose whether to grind or not, at times bosses will be more challenging. and as you progress you will need less and less event pages because your characters will (unless you give no XP) level up. This system will be a lot like Final Fantasy 8. there should even be a way to make normal enemies do this: The easiest way is to completely copy the maps you are using and auto teleport after area transition where the teleport to location is variable dependent on the "main character's level" variable discussed earlier.

It has been done before but it might be what you need to achieve your goals... this makes grinding pointless... unless enemies that only appear when you are at high levels for the area drop items that will unlock something like gear, a unique dungeon, a poodle sidekick with psychic powers...ect.  

To be honest, that was kind've one of the things I disliked about FF8. Not because you couldn't just grind past hard enemies, but because it made item hunting a nightmare.

One of my biggest points was to make grinding pointless in the first place because I feel like making progress in the game is more fun than grinding, but I'll keep exploring other options thanks to everyone's replies showing me the new problems which would arise with this.

 

[Tai_MT]

Dude the answer is right in front of you!

Create a variable "main character's level"= main actor's level (all levels usually are around this).

with the boss event have it change to a different page within the event when the variable hits between certain numbers. Use a different "troop" as the boss fight with the same graphics per level section of the variable which controls the page.

This way the player can choose whether to grind or not, at times bosses will be more challenging. and as you progress you will need less and less event pages because your characters will (unless you give no XP) level up. This system will be a lot like Final Fantasy 8. there should even be a way to make normal enemies do this: The easiest way is to completely copy the maps you are using and auto teleport after area transition where the teleport to location is variable dependent on the "main character's level" variable discussed earlier.

It has been done before but it might be what you need to achieve your goals... this makes grinding pointless... unless enemies that only appear when you are at high levels for the area drop items that will unlock something like gear, a unique dungeon, a poodle sidekick with psychic powers...ect.  

I don't like the whole "this makes grinding pointless" systems people invent.  It's another act of condescension from game programmer to player.  Dead Island takes this approach and nowhere in the history of gaming is it more obvious why you do NOT do it that way.  Meanwhile, games like Dead Rising do it right.

The absolute ONLY reason to level up in Dead Island is to obtain more skillpoints for your skill tree.  Where's the downside in that?  It's actually beneficial to do as LITTLE leveling up as possible because as you go along in the game, the weapons get more powerful than the zombies for the area.  If I pick up an "endgame" weapon at level 10 and I'm in the jungle, I am essentially murdering every zombie I run across in a single hit.  Meanwhile, if I'd taken every quest and explored every bit of the island before getting to the Jungle portion of the game (third act), the zombies would be mauling me to death CONSTANTLY because my level is so high and their damage increases exponentially in order to compensate for my own level.  It easily makes act 3 one of the most difficult portions of the game just because of the sheer number of zombies (including the standard variety that at the beginning of the game could be killed with a single hit of the weakest weapon) that can dish out extremely massive amounts of damage.  The system then becomes "is the skill point bonus really WORTH the zombies getting stronger?"  The answer is "no".  Their system effectively renders level ups useless and worthless.  Especially when at around level 20, you're already noticing how much harder everything is to kill (often taking 4 or more swings of a weapon to kill, or 3 shotgun shells to the head for a basic enemy).

Meanwhile, Dead Rising does it absolutely beautifully.  Grind if you want.  Get to level 50 before the end of the game if you want.  What does leveling up do?  It grants you skills and pips in attributes to let you more easily navigate the absolutely congested halls of the game.  The driving principle of the game is then "what am I carrying in my inventory and how skilled am I?" instead of "what level am I?".  Levels help, sure.  They help immensely.  But, a single zombie can still munch two bars of health off of you if you aren't careful of how you maneuver or play the game.  This is also nothing to say about how much the Psychos (who are mini-bosses, or actual bosses) take off your health.  But, gaining levels lets you do more damage to them as well.  Sometimes, it even limits how much damage they can do to you.  But, if you're not carrying the right equipment with you (like a decent weapon and a few food items to heal), then it doesn't matter what level you are.  The only thing that keeps you from taking damage at all is good maneuvering and dodging skills.

Basically, if you want to eliminate "grind" from your game at all, just eliminate your level up system entirely.  If there's no levels to gain for possible rewards, players can't and won't grind them.  It's also a more clever way to handle it other than "as you get stronger, enemies get stronger".  I don't know about anyone else, but when I figure out that's what a system is doing, I start ignoring 90% of the content just to keep my level low enough to absolutely murder everything I run across with ease.  If you're going to punish me for gaining a level, I'm not going to gain levels.  I'll beat your game at level 4 with God equipment that destroys your bosses, because they're scaled to my level.

I'm sorry, I just think the whole concept of it is fairly silly.  Grind should be optional for players.  If I want to grind mats or weapons or something, I'll gain levels for it.  If I want to gain a few extra levels so I can bypass most of the combat in the next section or two and enjoy the story a bit, I should be able to do that.  But, if all you're doing with your game is "I want to tell a really great story and have people engaged instead of gaining levels", then you should eliminate the source of the problem to begin with.  Get rid of level ups.  They are going to serve no purpose except to annoy your players and force them to play the game in the most non-intuitive way possible.

In my game, that's all I'm doing.  I'm just trying to tell a story.  As such, I changed my level up system entirely.  All leveling up does in my game is provide shortcuts, teammates, or access to a couple areas.  I wanted to emphasize story and exploration in my game, so I give out equipment and stats as rewards for completing Quests.  Granted, that runs me into one of the same problems of "the party can't overlevel for an area", but I've solved that by adding in some shops that sell these stats for extremely high prices.  These stats also in the early game typically only come in quantities of 1 or 2.  It isn't until late game that you're getting them in quantities of 5 or 10.

Now, keep in mind, that's just how I chose to handle the issue.  You can be creative and handle it a different way.  Just, if you have a level up system, it needs to provide great tangible rewards that make the players WANT to level up instead of discouraging it.  Otherwise, what's the point in having it?

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

^ yeah, just like how you can be a super powerful character in TES IV in just a short time just by keeping yourself at low levels... I really hate that, coz it makes the whole level thing pointless...

So yeah, if you're gonna restrict it, why have levels at all? Aside from it makes balancing easier for you... but from the player's point of view, it's really a pain...

Like if you only have a set number of battles in your game (in which all will be battled), just increase parameters of the characters after a certain point rather than have levels at all...

 

[Milennin]

Not a lot of people will grind in a free RPG Maker game anyway.

But I'd think it'd be better to increase the curve on experience needed to level for each chapter. Like, getting to level 5 in chapter 1 would be gained through normal gameplay, but after level 5, the player will need to grind significantly to become much stronger. This would somewhat discourage grinding, while still allowing it if the player really wants to. Then in chapter 2, the monsters will offer a lot more EXP to take the new curve into account.

 

[Espon]

I plan on having level caps per chapter, however, the cap would be high enough that the player would not reach it during regular play.  Skill experience on the other hand would remained uncapped, allowing you to continue to develop your skills (although experience requirements would slow down progress without fighting appropriately levelled enemies).

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Not a lot of people will grind in a free RPG Maker game anyway.

But I'd think it'd be better to increase the curve on experience needed to level for each chapter. Like, getting to level 5 in chapter 1 would be gained through normal gameplay, but after level 5, the player will need to grind significantly to become much stronger. This would somewhat discourage grinding, while still allowing it if the player really wants to. Then in chapter 2, the monsters will offer a lot more EXP to take the new curve into account.

yeah, I haven't found a game yet made in RM where I enjoy grinding as much as I enjoyed it in other games... mostly because battle flow (or maybe the whole game flow) in RM seems slower than most games, so I find grinding pretty time costly... 

 

[Tai_MT]

yeah, I haven't found a game yet made in RM where I enjoy grinding as much as I enjoyed it in other games... mostly because battle flow (or maybe the whole game flow) in RM seems slower than most games, so I find grinding pretty time costly... 

You sure it's not because most battle systems in RM games tend to be "afterthoughts" instead of "key features"?  At least, that's been my experience with them.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

IDK, but to me they really feel slow...