Love between party members yay or nay?

[Galenmereth]

The problem is that you can't really depict a realistic inter-human relationship in games through only visuals and sound, because there are so many elements to it that are impossible to convey directly. What you can do is make a setting that some may relate to, in which they fill in the gaps - like emotions, psychological background and feelings. This means that love in videogames will be truly hit and miss; it is impossible to make everyone "feel" that the relationship is sincere; all you can do is try to guide them that way. When you then allow players to make choices - however silly they might seem to some - you'll still allow them some interaction with their avatar's life, and I don't think it's inherently bad that such choices are presented as simple. All interaction is good if it has an effect on the game world.

 

[SLEEP]

No really, how do you feel about street art part 2:

> Read a dating guide for FF7: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/130791-final-fantasy-vii/faqs/2385 (+1 Tifa) (as many times as you like)
> And Harvest Moon! Read Harvest Moon too! http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/562623-harvest-moon/faqs/19086 (Lilac Perfume  +4    +8      +6    +15     +8)

> Like, I could post more, but I'm not a connoisseur of these games either, I just know this is how they work backend, and i'm just presenting it in all it's banality. (+ because i've used that FF7 guide before at least)

> My interest or distain for you can't be measured in points. Human relationships don't work in a way that involves checking stats against other stats and filling up relationship bars. That's why I call it robotic, because only robots think in those terms. (+an army of robots please)

> It is a perfectly logical system, whereas humans and the emotions they feel aren't logical. Humans are beautiful, irrational beings, whose emotions you can't gauge with little relationship bars, and it cheapens those feeling to do so. (-32 lols)

> And choice is not an inherent good. What's choice matter, if choice is cheap, and will get contrived results either way? (+play the stanley parable, i feel like i just stole those words right from that game somehow, also it is the most kawaii dating sim)

>Write one romance, write it well, write it without dumb robotic backend systems messing the whole thing up.

 

[Xortberg]

Are you just trying really hard to be obtuse and obstinate?

 

[SLEEP]

I can't answer that question without knowing how it'll affect my relationship points. 

 

[Galenmereth]

@SLEEP: You forget that we're talking about games here. Not novels, and not movies. Games. In games, interaction is important. If I want to "experience" a great but static love story, I'll watch Honey & Clover, or I'll read 1Q84. If I want to play a game that simulates relationships, one of them is Harvest Moon. Not because it's realistic in any way, but because I fill in the blanks with my subjective fantasy. I get to chose whom my character gets to fall in love with (he doesn't even say anything; I have to imagine that he's in love, and not just mute), I get to court them through a silly minigame that I am perfectly capable of looking at as an abstraction of real dating, and I get to marry and have children - through my avatar.

I actually find Harvest Moon: Friends of Mineral Town (GBA) to be an excellent game, and I grew really attached to my wife and kids, but not personally; I grew attached to them through my avatar. But it required quite a bit of imagination from my part, which I actually enjoyed.

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Like I said earlier, it probably largely depends on how you play those sorts of games. I've never played a true dating sim, just other games that have dating sim like elements factored into them - When I play, I don't touch a guide for the most part, so I don't have all those numbers floating through my head. I just do what I think -I- would do in a given situation. *shruggs*


Though, I will agree with the "write it well" part of what SLEEP said. Whether you've got one romance or fifty romances, choices or a predetermined fate, relationships with humans, elves, or elephants--you'd better write it well, or no one's gonna care.

I actually find Harvest Moon: Friends of Mineral Town (GBA) to be an excellent game, and I grew really attached to my wife and kids, but not personally; I grew attached to them through my avatar. But it required quite a bit of imagination from my part, which I actually enjoyed.

I agreee! I really enjoyed Harvest Moon: Friends of Mineral Town (and more friends of mineral town) for the same reason. Courting my wife and seeing her move in with me and have kids with me was really cute and I enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed watering my plants everyday and smashing rocks until I passed out in a mine.

 

[SLEEP]

If you want some fantasy, not-real roleplaying romance, go for it! I play the Sims after all, and that's about as robotic as they come. Nothing's ever realistic in storytelling 100%, but sometimes you owe it to your audience to be more real. Interactivity is something only games can do as well, but games can be so much more. I've played games quote-unquote "with the interactivity of a slideshow" and found them highly engaging. Interactivity is a language you can use to communicate ideas, and as things come out which blur these lines. For example: are Choose-your-own-adventure books games? And where does it leave Twine games? Taking interactivity away can be a powerful message as much as giving it! Interactivity and choices are tools to be used in games, not things that games are "about". And when it comes to love, I think choice can be your enemy, for reasons already stated.

Harvest Moon romance falls on the "stupid" side, there are some really tricky implications with it though. It reinforces the "nice guy tm" attitude, where you insert gifts and kind gestures into a woman, and get the PG-13 version of SEX in return (which is marriage, kids, lifelong commitment, boring version of sex lol). Real people who hold these attitudes are ****ty, so they're morals to avoid implying in any media.

 

[Makio-Kuta]

*shruggs* I ran around town giving herbs to everyone and I've run around work giving chocolates to everyone. I don't think I learned any particularly bad morals by handing out things to people in a fictional town and, ultimately, extending that to real life lol But who knows. I just like to see people smile when you give them something. It's cute. People are cute. Real people and video game people. -3-


Though the "Nice Guy TM" attitude is a thing to try to avoid implying in media, I guess I never really saw that in Harvest Moon because that wasn't entirely how I played the game. At least, I wasn't entirely aware of playing the game that way. I just tried to be as close to me as I could be - if I were suddenly turned into a dude and given a farm I guess. haha


That aside, I still think it all boils down to what sort of tone you want your game to have and what sort of people you want your game to appeal to. Not really a right or wrong in the decision, just knowing your audience and knowing your story and what's going to carry that story best.

 

[Galenmereth]

Harvest Moon romance falls on the "stupid" side, there are some really tricky implications with it though. It reinforces the "nice guy tm" attitude, where you insert gifts and kind gestures into a woman, and get the PG-13 version of SEX in return (which is marriage, kids, lifelong commitment, boring version of sex lol). Real people who hold these attitudes are ****ty, so they're morals to avoid implying in any media.

Doing nice things for people, giving them gifts, and being a "nice guy" is ****ty? OK.JPG

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Doing nice things for people, giving them gifts, and being a "nice guy" is ****ty? OK.JPG

Well, I think SLEEP is talking about the whole personality "I did a nice thing for you so you'd better be nice and date me wah wah why won't you date me I am so nice to you you owe me a date" that gets coined under 'nice guy TM' attitude. Which, I agree, that sort of personality is something I wish would go away. People should be nice to each other without expecting anything in return!!
But to me, Harvest Moon doesn't really call that sort of personality to mind, but I wasn't really expecting anything more than a happy face when I handed someone a turnip at random one day because I had a lot of turnips. lol And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to make someone smile.

 

[Archeia]

How is it unrealistic that someone slowly appreciates you because you're always giving them gifts and helping out? (not saying just harvest moon here). The closest you can get to that is through mathematical values. You have to make do to emulate feelings and it just so happens that numbers worked on that. You can't expect game developers to program an AI so complex, it actually has ~feelings~ and they don't have to do what you're complaining about. That's just BS.

What matters is HOW they're written even when they're using numbers to determine when they're willing to open up to you. I THINK THAT EVEN APPLIES TO REAL LIFE. EXCEPT LONGER. Games just make it easier for you. Isn't this exactly the process of courting/courtship?

I don't find that even the slightest bit of robotic or unrealistic.

If someone hangs out with me, and we unlock events together that we help out each other -- Harvest Moon Example: Anna and the MC when she got a crazy stomachache because of her gluttony, if you mess up with the choices, you actually can't marry her since you didn't trigger a life-changing flag for her on how she perceives you. You'd have to work extra hard to get her to like you to the point of marriage.

Then yes I'll like that guy/girl.

Also FF7 falls down to the Asexual romance side of things and the use of body language even when it uses mathematical values. BUT I am not going in there. It'd just overtake this discussion. But you make it seem like FF7's dating makes it so easy to get the other girls. I did talk to Tifa first and flirted with her, but it doesn't mean I prefer her over Aerith and I'd always get her (Aerith) anyway. Some people do want to flirt/poke someone for a bit just for lulz but it doesn't mean I'm serious for her or pursue her enough that she'll fall for me. And Yuffie's flags actually involved other things than just mathematical values. It actually requires you to do things that will win her heart (e.g. Wutai Quest). I'm not going to Barret since he feels like a joke date. But at least I know Cloud is not picky with gender. (I still believe he's an Asexual)

So no, it's not as linear as you think as who I talked to first.

I just woke up so I'm still hurr durr, but I think I managed to get my point across.

 

[Makio-Kuta]

How is it unrealistic that someone slowly appreciates you because you're always giving them gifts and helping out? (not saying just harvest moon here). The closest you can get to that is through mathematical values. You have to make do to emulate feelings and it just so happens that numbers worked on that. You can't expect game developers to program an AI so complex, it actually has ~feelings~ and they don't have to do what you're complaining about. That's just BS.


What matters is HOW they're written even when they're using numbers to determine when they're willing to open up to you. I THINK THAT EVEN APPLIES TO REAL LIFE. EXCEPT LONGER. Games just make it easier for you. Isn't this exactly the process of courting?


I don't find that even the slightest bit of robotic or unrealistic.


If someone hangs out with me, and we unlock events together that we help out each other -- Harvest Moon Example: Anna and the MC when she got a crazy stomachache because of her gluttony, if you mess up with the choices, you actually can't marry her since you didn't trigger a life-changing flag for her on how she perceives you.


Also ff7 falls down to the Asexual romance side of things and the use of body language. BUT I am not going in there. It'd just overtake this discussion. I just woke up so I'm still hurr durr, but I think I managed.

I agree with all of this, but I bolded the most important bit :>

 

[Archeia]

That said, I like giving people gifts as long as they don't trash me on the process. Some people actually just give gifts because they want people to be happy. Harvest Moon does that for me and I love giving the grandma and the kids their favorite snacks since I care for them as...game people.

Saying that it encourages Nice Guy tm attitude is lol. If I want to go for a girl in HM, I'd actually visit her everyday, etc. EXCEPT the one I really want is Harvest Goddess. It doesn't mean that stopped me from giving them gifts to the other girls. I would prefer to build a mutual respect for each other and friendship. As well as business benefits. No matter how mundane the reasons may be. There's still this genuine affection given to them. Don't think for a second that Harvest Moon is about the Nice Guy attitude will get you laid. It's more of, this is a small town, and as a family, we have to work together and help each other. A Mindset that were brought up to me when I used to live in the Provincial Areas. Which is what Harvest Moon is strongly encouraging.

I mean come on, you get elves helping you out and townspeople giving you gifts. That's normal.

And if you try to one up all of them with Golden Lumber, they get angry since it feels like you're not treating them as family as well as ignoring the hardwork of people in that field (or yours really). And people in such areas really admire hard work since it connects them together. (YES THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT SH*TTY OBJECT). Hell they even detect if you throw trash around and it gives them minus points to affection since lol DON'T YOU LOVE OUR TOWN? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!

So those affection points are not just there for romance. They serve a bigger scheme of things, no matter how subtle it is.

And even little things like letting you in the most private parts of their house is a big thing for them. That means they show you that they trust you enough since you're really a part of the community. Little touches like this does make them human as much as the developers can do. I don't think affection should be something that is something big/items, but just showing that you trust them through small things you normally don't let people get close to.

I know some people hate subtle things like that since they want a more romantic/in your face type of interaction with kind of romance. But I personally found that the shallowest and expecting too much from a potential partner/family. It's pretty much instant reward, and harvest moon definitely doesn't feel that way. You have to work for it.

You also have the choice to be a dick and be ignored by the rest of the community, just like how you have the choice whether you want all the girls view you as a pimp or celibate yourself to be with the Harvest Goddess. And you also have the choice to ignore the other townspeople and not like them. I don't think this is unrealistic/robotic/a bad thing at all for Harvest Moon.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Everything jotted and noted, As I said before all these points are really good material for the team to make final decisions on this topic.

Also I never knew by making the right choices you end up going out with Barret guess who is replying FF7 today lol

Anyways giving gifts to people can be a mutual or a love interest thing, there is indeed nothing robotic in giving people gifts unless you don't give a reason why and then they start getting either the wrong idea or start appreciating you even more, it all depends on the persons emotions that they have towards you, I give gifts to people also in real life for no apparent reason and they either misunderstood the purpose of it or we re just closer as friends, not every gift needs to be about giving to the person you are interested in and same goes for both parties.

 

[Sneakaboo]

You could actually use subtle hints and add the romance as a 'secret'.

Say you find 'gifts' in special dungeons and what not, when you have it you give it to the character.

After it you get a drawn shot like lunar of the two that shows the romance.

That or it triggering a romance, making it a sub plot but something that might encourage people to look around more.

Personally I would go for that, though I can't draw much (never been my interest)

 

[Probotector 200X]

I can't do "choose" romances even if I try. It just...doesn't work for me. I think of characters and their interactions as part of the world-building, to leave something so important so open just feels wrong to me. One project that didn't have much direction was kind of leading into a "yuri dating sim", but that's the closest I got. (to clarify, the main character is a girl, and she can romance with the other girls, and only girls)

But I try romance in various aspects. I don't believe it's something to just ignore, it's an important part of human interaction and development.

My very first project back in the PS1 RPG Maker, I never made any romance for the main character. The closest I ever came to trying it was for him to hook up with the slimegirl, but I decided that would work better as a more platonic love, because they'd like, literally escape from Hell together. I think it's ultimately because I was very young when I started that project, and had no experience with relationships or even attraction.

My first RPG Maker XP project, is a little different, and is a stark reminder how I don't often go with characters I'm super familiar with or can even relate to on the super shallow and artificial levels most people prioritize. The main character is a retired old knight, and his wife is an old cleric. I don't have much in common with an old dude, let me tell you, nor do I "fantasize" about being married to an old lady, lol. That's not the point. It was fun trying something so different, the main character being married for 40 some years prior to the game starting, and their significant other is FINE, and SPOILERS: They don't die in the story either. It's like, has no one even done that? C'mon.

For a while my stories had a young adult female lead, with a feminine male love interest (a "trap" basically), then I started working on stories with older, more mature female leads, with mature female love interests.

Nowadays I feel like I'm stuck in a rut. It's not like I'm writing the same love story over and over, and the descriptions I've gave prior are REALLY unspecific, but still. Oh well, most people tend to do that anyway.

And that's just referring to the lead character. I often think of romance for other party members, often over the lead character. I even have a story or two where the main character and main villain are in love, how awkward can you get?

Also, c'mon, weddings are kinda fun. Usually I plan to make it part of the ending, but why wait?

 

[Stridah]

I think this answer will vary largely based on execution & personal preference.

Ask yourself, does this love affair add depth to the story or character development...

If the answer is yes, sure include it.

If you are just adding a love story for the sake of, ohhh it would be cute to have these 2 members fall in love, leave it out or find a way to validate it in the story.

-The champ

 

[Rycoria]

Yay. If done correctly.

Relationships will be a major factor in my game, but my game is quite story driven.

The player will be able to decide who (if any) they would like to form a romantic relationship with.

You can choose anyone with maxed out feelings meter. Yes, anyone. The player is a boy or girl, but either as a boy or girl you can pick a boy or girl. As the player is made with a very robust character creator, if you can choose your name and look and stats, and personality via choices, you need to be able to choose your sexuality also.

 

[BlissAuthority]

> It is a perfectly logical system, whereas humans and the emotions they feel aren't logical. Humans are beautiful, irrational beings, whose emotions you can't gauge with little relationship bars, and it cheapens those feeling to do so. (-32 lols)

> And choice is not an inherent good. What's choice matter, if choice is cheap, and will get contrived results either way? (+play the stanley parable, i feel like i just stole those words right from that game somehow, also it is the most kawaii dating sim)

>Write one romance, write it well, write it without dumb robotic backend systems messing the whole thing up.

This is an argument against hit points, magic points, and any statistical system as well.

I mean, there are only six basic human emotions in varying mixtures and intensity; it's very easy to measure someone's mood by tracking those as a series of points, with abstractions like Trust, Intimacy, and Affection.  Combat is hard.  Combat requires complex physics.

I don't mean to come off as flippant here.  But I'm interested in doing multilinear romance stories, and you need systems to do that.  The fact that we have systems that model combat - a chaotic, bloody mess that isn't logical in the slightest - better than we have ones that model psychology is really just a matter of historical accident.  

While I agree with you that there are a hell of a lot of games just as bad as you're describing - and that Harvest Moon is one of the worst offenders - If we want to have good multilinear romances we need to be somewhat reductive.  We just need better models of human behavior than the ones games are using! Seriously, screw kindness coin economies forever.

 

[Vassim74]

Personally I feel that romance should never take away too much time and/or attention away from the main plot unless the main plot is about the romance (I'm looking at you, SAO ). Even then, the budding romance should be developed in small increments over time so that not only will it not steal attention from the main plot, but it'll also receive the proper amount of time to mature and flourish rather than it being all there at once and out of nowhere.

Also like a lot of people have said before me, it also depends on how the romance is written and how it's carried out.

Since I'm working as a visual novelist here, the way I approach the romance in the story that I am currently working on is that the player's choice determines which heroine's path the protagonist will end up on by choosing where the protagonist will go first. Once the protagonist has been locked onto a route, the heroine will fall for him over time as her story path progresses. However, she doesn't fall for him because he does things to try and win her heart, but rather she falls for him because she admires his character and efforts, and how they can sympathize with each other.