Magic & System Discussion

[cybrim]

Hi, I'm Cybrim. I would like to discuss the importance of magic in your game worlds. Remember that in every world magic is NEVER a "Fix-All" in fact it causes many problems.

Edit- I'm giving a brief description of things and events, not trying to make them the focus. I'm examining them and their effects; Please add more and give your opinions on how creators telling similar stories may create a better atmospheric game.

Yes the mandatory "Final Fantasy" section; if you want you can skip this section but there are some suggestions down below to help impact you.

In Final Fantasy 5 Magic was limited on what class or secondary ability you assigned, but because of the crystals shattering the world gets more "corrupt" as you play, the problem here is there is no real threat of the world ending, the crystals are useless, this would have been the time to integrate enemy level-ups.

In Final Fantasy 6 dead/dying Espers were trapped in Magicite or utilized into Magitech armor. Magic is originally limited to specific people, this is amazing, then an actual world-changing event occurs and guess what? It matters.

In Final Fantasy 7 Materia was hardened Lifestream that came from Mako energy, which when harnessed was killing the planet. Some magic was so powerful it was locked away and it took a sacrifice to get to it, afterwords ancient sentient giants awaken and you have to battle them to get really cool equipment or bragging rights.

In Final Fantasy 8 magic was limited to monsters and magical creatures (given the worst names ever, "GF") but forced creatures to level up with the player. You only got weaker and had to spend hours DRAWING MAGIC to become powerful enough to face new challenges.

In Final Fantasy 9 your equipment taught you abilities and spells. You could also assign your passive abilities!

--- End of Final Fantasy section.

In Diablo you had characters that had specific abilities but spells were assigned to scrolls or books, scrolls were single-casts and books taught you magic, this is the hardest game in this series.

In Diablo 2 you had characters that had abilities and spells which required skill investments to unlock, only 1 ability was ever truly effective per class, thus the min/maxing was born.

In Diablo 3 you had the best possible way to build your character, start out small and customize over time to create your favorite layout, sure you had to sacrifice one awesome sub-feature for another but it was merely about your playstyle.

--- End of Diablo Section

"I'm not trying to get people to agree with me, I'm trying to get people to think." - Alan Moore

I am asking that you think about how magic/psionics has consequences, both good and bad for each character and their world.

Check out these games for more indepth: Magic: The Gathering, Persona 3, Persona 4, Path of Exile, Final Fantasy X, Tales of Xilia, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger, Golden Sun, Dragon Age 2 (Skip Origins, it is just too clunky), Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Breath of Fire 3, Child of Light, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Rogue Galaxy, Dragon Warrior 1/(Dragon Quest 1) Titan Quest: Immortal Throne & Grim Dawn.

Each of these games handles it's world differently, the idea of Magic/Psionics has an immediate impact (what your characters/enemies do) and a worldly impact, whether it is political, environmental, distortional or revolutionary in nature.

The type of "Magic" you use in your game should have impact on story, define your characters as independent entities with differing motives (Diablo 3), change the world both substantially (Sin FFX) and minorly(Golden Sun), impact your bonds and relationships with PCs and NPCs (Persona 3 & 4); and finally be useful outside of combat (Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Dragon Warrior).

 

[Espon]

Magic's just everywhere in my games.  Everything is made up of mana — the land, the trees, the creatures and people.  All creatures are able to manipulate mana to some extent depending on what they are and how well trained they are.  The world was created by these powerful Ancients through advanced magic long before.

For example, even something like a simple rat can use magic. They'll mainly use it for detecting food or sensing nearby predators.  Other creatures would use magic for hunting or self-defense.

The spells that the player's characters use would be based on training.  As they gain more experience, they'll be able to use more powerful spells.  What they can do with it depends on their area of interest, like a fighter would prefer utilizing magic to strengthen their attacks as opposed to flinging fireballs.

Magic does have its consequences, though.  The Ancients wiped themselves out due to a mana bomb detonating and only about a dozen of them still exist.  A few dragons and some people with Ancient artifacts have also killed off the land in some areas by borrowing too much mana at once.

 

[Wavelength]

I think your ideas are very good.  I'd toss in Ars Magica (Pen & Paper RPG) and A Certain Scientific Railgun (Anime) as examples in other media where the consequences of having special powers are examined really well.

But I want to play Devil's Advocate for a moment.  Is there actually anything wrong with treating magic purely as a game mechanic, without explaining it or examining it or even giving it any significance for the plot or characters, as a way for characters to take down monsters/robots/what-have-you when they wouldn't realistically have the martial skills take them on in combat without having "magic"?

 

[cybrim]

EDIT- Thanks for sharing, Wavelength, I don't believe that anything is wrong with it, I just don't believe that people give enough credit for a good story when they want to know how the creator's world exists in some almost tangible manner, which is why things like DBZ have been around for a long time. Superpowers/Magic/Technology, there are either 3 or 4 explanations for the Dragon Balls and in GT the gathered dark energy erupts because they were abused.

Hi wavelength, this is what I'm talking about different viewpoints. However, in a world with advanced metaphysical "magic" it would be like everyone having superpowers, look at how mutants are treated in the Marvel Universe, they look different or have powers these are consequences like you see the Mages going through right now in Dragon Age: Inquisition, they have abilities that are feared and misunderstood therefor are treated as a threat.

Also thank you very much for pointing out Tabletop and anime as additional resources, the point I was trying to make is that game developers shouldn't go with "accepted beliefs" but rather look at the serious consequences of these powers. For instance D&D (1st-3rd, possibly 5th) has the most basic magic system, it isn't very innovative but neither is the MP system we've been drawing out for too long. When you look at games like Secret of Mana you have your charge up abilities, which sometimes appear to be semi-magical, but ultimately greatly improves gameplay.

If magic were to exist it would be considered "normal", for instance in "A Certain Scientific Railgun" (from "A Certain Magical Index"), Espers live in a place called Academy city, it is said to be 10 years ahead of the rest of the world technologically due to the skilled people that live there, it is a place where these talented people live and train.

If you look at Bleach the Spirit World is made up of Spirit Particles, which are burned like mana at certain times, the captains and vice-captains have "Limiters" (I can't remember if this was an anime exclusive crap reason or a reasonable one) that are highly restrictive of their over-all power, due to the actual danger they would bring from releasing too much Spiritual Pressure in the physical world (this is why sidewalks crack, random explosions happen... ect, when hollows appear) when that guy touched Aisen he turned to ash from coming into contact with something that could manifest itself at a level that average humans could see made up of Spiritual Particles.

"Magic" is a word for something incredible (thus being not credible, yet awesome) that we can't explain.- As the definition. So it can't truly be a catch-all for super powered beings, which is why it's called "Artes", "Ki", "Mana" & other various names.

In Yu Yu Hakusho the reason that very powerful Demons weren't coming into our world on a regular basis was because of a barrier designed like a net, smaller ones could get through small openings.

DC Comics suffered for a long time because they were unwilling to break their Comic Code Authority. The first thing they released without it was the Green Lantern & Green Arrow series where you find out that Arrow's ward is a druggy, thus shattering the paradigm originally created by the shallow vigilante, "good guys are good because they're good." Explanation. They shattered a history of garbage to tell a real story, Marvel was doing quite well for a while due to the issues that the X-Men & Spider-man faced in their personal lives because of their environments, politics, jobs, relationships and personal agendas.

In Star Wars the "Light Side" and "Dark Side" have mutually exclusive powers and benefits, that being said there is that middle ground which is more awesome having influence on both sides but not having a complete grasp on either, Vader must have been riding the fence for awhile because he never mastered Force Lightning, yet his student did.

In each of these situations the creators gave some explanation for the abilities they featured in their stories, this is why they are well-known, they changed the way people thought of supernatural powers in their settings, a little creativity goes a long way when you consider the various impacts things like Flying without wings would bring. Batman has no superpowers but he knows their weaknesses because he's studied them, so he can prepare for many worst-case scenarios.

 

[cybrim]

Also people wouldn't settle near areas with creatures they could never kill at Level 1 (after all they are there to live and start families right?), this is where MMOs get it right. As many areas are "Starting Areas" they have weaker monsters, (I'm looking at Everquest 2 & Final Fantasy XIV ARR specifically because of the amount of starting locations). The Further you go from society the safer it is to incorporate more fiendish monsters, that being said, I recommend looking up event books for tabletop RPGs, they are great resources for brainstorming catastrophic consequences like Deities dying, meteors carrying foreign life to your planet, war breaking out...

But Hogwarts on the other hand is perfect for a place with dangerous creatures as these people (many of whom are high level) are capable of defending themselves, danger is part of the game. Hogwarts is akin to a Mages' Guild.

If you create games that occur at the same time in different areas don't pull a Comic Book Movie, after all no one ever mentions the avengers or wolverine's connections to them in the X-Men movies, yet in the comic he is there in it with them. If a world-shaking event happens in one game, carry it over into the others, after all if there are portals that demons are coming through chances are it isn't contained and your other heroes may have joined together to find out why this is happening and put a stop to it when the original group set it off to begin with as a better means than just destroying the planet.

I recommend the Marvel Civil War graphic novel story arch for inspiration. 

 

[whitesphere]

You could look at the Dresden Files (stories) for inspiration.  In essence, in that universe (which is set in modern day Chicago), magic is a force which is brought into the world by someone's will and emotions and shaped by intention.  But, once a magic spell brings forces in play, they are immediately acted upon by current physics.

At one point, Harry freezes a lake by shooting a fireball over it, for example (draws out the ambient heat).  And, even supernaturally large, fast and strong opponents, once they're airborne, are subject to the exact same rules of momentum we are.  More than once, Harry uses that, as well as modern weaponry (guns, etc) heavily to his advantage against supernatural opponents who could wipe the floor with him magically.

The Wheel of Time series has another take on magic.  There is a male and female half, but the male half is tainted by the Dark One (causing male channelers to go insane eventually).   There is no practical limit to what a channeler can do BUT if they take in too much of the Power, it can kill them or worse permanently burn out their ability to channel (but not to feel the Source which is highly pleasurable and addictive to both male and female channelers)

So, in game, what magic comes from, its limits and what it does really depend on what you need from it, from a plot standpoint.

In my games, I just use it as a passive force which can be concentrated, focused, dispersed and used to change things --- basically a catch all for "This can't possibly happen" events.

 

[Bernkastelwitch]

I think this is something that I should think about more for my RPG, at least to give it lore.

My RPG or rather the world magic co-exists with technology considering the setting is basically a Modern Fantasy with sci-fi elements added in. It's not surprising to see a mage, a robot, and a regular run of the mill Cop work together in that universe.

There are strong spells like revival but Resurrection comes at a cost like for example: If you want to bring someone back from the dead you gotta take some lives by literally "stealing" peoples souls out of their body. In a sense it's a matter of ethics when it comes to stronger spells like Resurrection.

Like-wise very powerful attacks intending to kill can also cause some consequences too. If you intend to kill a being in one hit with certain spells it's usually at the cost of your own life, having the targets soul be "split" into other people making them the only targets to be used for the Resurrection spell.

So when it comes to stronger and more dangerous spells it usually comes at a matter of ethics and health.

However magic is also used with technology pretty well like it can be an alternative source of fuel for mechs and robots. Magic can also be used to keep prosthetic limbs in place without much pain or make them more "human" than robotic. There also exists people who use magic and technology together and there exists an occupation called a "Technomage" which has a little bit of magic and technology in their moves and attacks.

High concentration of magic usually creates "aura" where magic users can sense. This usually happens when someone has a "soul fragment" from someone who had their soul split into pieces when killed or are experienced magicians.

Gameplay wise I may make some of the more overpowered magic spells come at a cost like there's a high chance you'd get KOed when using instant kill spell.

So that's most I can think of for the magic in my RPG and it's lore. I'm mainly trying to make it viable in a world where technology exists and even regular people like cops and wrestlers can go against both magic and technological users.

Thought I'd like to share this due to it giving me some thought on the whole magic structure in my RPG's world.

 

[cybrim]

Thanks whitesphere & Bernkastelwitch for your contributions, both are exactly what I'm looking for.

Now let's talk about creatures: Pok'e'mon for instance is a great world where the "monsters" you face actually exist outside of combat and have a place in the world, these are "magical creatures" due to their abilities and unique characteristics. This is the best example of creatures that make sense in a world. Also Monster Rancher and Dragon Quest Monsters are great examples of how to make your creatures fit into the world, they aren't just monsters they are living breathing beings with their own likes and dislikes and should be treated as such.

Time travel: The Conversation.

Time travel can be handled in several ways:

1: Sliders (go watch the series)/ Tsubasa (anime) Alternate universes no way back.

2: Chrono Cross Locked Alternate dimensions, with travel between.

3: Chrono Trigger & Sonic CD Time reconstruction based on your actions to effect all futures.

4: DC & Marvel Parallel universes with origin worlds where nothing has occurred.

5: Final Fantasy 8 Take over the roles of people from the past and witness their experiences from their perspectives.

6: Butterfly Effect (movies and theory; watch the first one the others are a rip off of it).

7: Flash Point Paradox Time BOOM! Splinters of time effect more than the one thing you hope to change to completely change the reality you wake up in.

8: Any more that I can't think of at the moment.

If you are going to handle time travel do so carefully as any loose end will be pulled apart by your community (it happens), not to be mean but look at the gaping plot hole in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark: Indie isn't needed what-so-ever as when the Nazis find the Ark, they die horribly! I mention this because Time travel is extremely sensitive.

 

[whitesphere]

In the 2 games you mention, cybrim, collecting or raising creatures is the focus of the game.   So, the lore and creature definitions must fit this to make a good game.

Rune Factory 3 did something interesting with this.  Creatures DO have their own likes/dislikes and in fact there is an entire town of "Monsters" where they live normal lives.  In that town, the "Monsters" are normal NPCs you can talk to, get quests from and so on.  However, everywhere else, you can TRY to tame the monster (by feeding it) which doesn't always work but the default behavior is to attack the player.

But in RF3, collecting creatures is an important secondary goal, since that's how you collect easy income and certain products (Milk for example) are far easier to collect from friendly "Monsters"

None of my games have the "Harvest Moon" style mechanic, so collecting and raising monsters isn't important.  So 99% of the time, they are typical random encounters.  In one specific section of one of my games, Vampires are normal NPCs so there the "Monsters" talk to you, you can buy stuff from them, etc.

So, there is no specific One Right Answer for defining your monsters.  Like Time Travel, the qualities you define are driven by the needs of your game's plot.

The only qualities I consider important with normal monsters are:

- What "species" do I think of them as?  This affects their speed, attack types, defenses, elemental and state resistances, etc.  Maybe a Snake Charmer can put hostile non-boss Snakes to sleep for example.

- Based on the above, I adjust all of the parameters to meet what I want the monster to do.   Is it a rare and more powerful version?  If it lives in a different environment, how does that change the monster?  And so on.

 

[cybrim]

It is true that taming the CREATURES (I hate to say monsters because I <3 them) is the main theme of those games but you see them as more than just some fight. Look at the Final Fantasy 7 Chocobo breeding Idea, go out, catch them and raise them until you can get Knights of the Round!

I'm not wanting every game to turn into a tame the creature game at all (Digimon screwed that idea up for me... I personally think it was lame they way they handled that franchise). I would like more lore and interaction than just combat in a world where these things supposedly exist.

In the Persona franchise I love how you acquire new aspects of yourself (as opposed to creatures), they add depth to your character and it is way more interesting than a typical class system, but ultimately it is a great class system, the after battle minigames are somewhat fun but definitely distinct and have an actual impact on the way you play the game. The fact that you improve yourself through your community (or American Social Links) is a valid point.

The Atelier series is a great (Yeah it isn't called magic in the game, but how else do you make some of these things?) "Alchemy" system (yeah haters it is still magic... it literally just happens lol). I am calling all things that aren't in our realm of possibilities "Magic" to separate them from our everyday mundane existence. Okay after the clarification of my beliefs on the subject (which is all opinion), this game does time management well, normally I have a sick feeling in games that make me do things in a time oriented fashion I like to play the way I like, but the events that occur on specific dates and the character quality is pretty high, sure they aren't dark and brooding and I'm a guy but I love the light-hearted characters and story (all of the main characters appear to be the same and are extremely shallow dim-wits lol).

I really don't like games with "instant gratification rewards"; my friend was playing World of Warcraft and typed in a code and instantly got a Griffin mount... he didn't quest for it or really earn it through is character's actions or capabilities so for me it was less than amazing as the character in my honest opinion should have received a quest to go find the mount if he wanted it that badly. The exception to this idea for me is "style" rewards, they are like seeing a magazine with a haircut in it and you know you want it... so you have it, in DC Universe Online I paid a little more than $1 for a wing style item, it doesn't make you faster or impact the game it merely changes the way your character appears which is okay. In Chrono Cross you can collect Window Frames once again no impact on gameplay it just adds a rare and unique way to look at your world, when you found the one you wanted it was awesome.

Out of Demons' Souls, Dark Souls 1 & Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 2 has the best magic system for the Sword & Sorcery Survivalist gameplay, The issue with Demons' Souls MP system was it was too easy to cast spells really often if you were a mage or had magic capabilities (also item drops being part of the upgradable stats largely impacted your ability to cast spells quicker because some restored MP). Dark Souls 1 had a horrible high cost limited use spell system, if you missed it cost you dearly in souls and finite resources. Dark Souls 2 limits the amount of casts per spell (not spell level) in a way that allows you to rest and regain them thus making you think about your loadout carefully when exploring new areas, well done Dark Souls 2, well done. I love the Melancholy and Macabre atmosphere of these games, I can't wait for Bloodborne!

 

[leomilhouse]

You could look at the Dresden Files (stories) for inspiration.  In essence, in that universe (which is set in modern day Chicago), magic is a force which is brought into the world by someone's will and emotions and shaped by intention.  But, once a magic spell brings forces in play, they are immediately acted upon by current physics.


At one point, Harry freezes a lake by shooting a fireball over it, for example (draws out the ambient heat).  And, even supernaturally large, fast and strong opponents, once they're airborne, are subject to the exact same rules of momentum we are.  More than once, Harry uses that, as well as modern weaponry (guns, etc) heavily to his advantage against supernatural opponents who could wipe the floor with him magically.


The Wheel of Time series has another take on magic.  There is a male and female half, but the male half is tainted by the Dark One (causing male channelers to go insane eventually).   There is no practical limit to what a channeler can do BUT if they take in too much of the Power, it can kill them or worse permanently burn out their ability to channel (but not to feel the Source which is highly pleasurable and addictive to both male and female channelers)


So, in game, what magic comes from, its limits and what it does really depend on what you need from it, from a plot standpoint.


In my games, I just use it as a passive force which can be concentrated, focused, dispersed and used to change things --- basically a catch all for "This can't possibly happen" events.

One thing I find most interesting in WoT that I haven't seen in other series/books is how they accomplish great feats, like the ones done in the Age of Legends in the book canon and later in the current age books. Both male and female channellers (wizards for those who haven't read the book and don't know their "alternative" dictionary) had to work together and complete each other's powers, weakness and strengths. Each was strong in one element or in one way of doing things, and combined they were that much stronger both in terms of raw power channeled and in ways of creating new things and making things work. That's why so much was lost after the Breaking of the World in the book, because only the female Aes Sedai (again, wizards) were allowed to channel, not the men as they'd go insane touching their tainted half and wrack havoc. Truly a stroke of genius by Robert Jordan.

 

[Kes]

leomilhouse, please refrain from necro-posting in a thread. Necro-posting is posting in a thread that has not had posting activity in over 30 days. You can review our forum rules here. Thank you.