Magic Types in a Weapon Class Skill System

[Puppet Knight]

Afternoon all.


I've combined Fomars Equipment Skill System, with TAA_SkillMastery - v1.2.1 , Gabe MZ - Equip Requirements, Dual Weapon Restriction 1.0 and WeaponClassChange(plus variations of it for class tiers 2+ in Class Change System VS) to build a pretty decent system.


Weapons equipped determine the Primary and 1st subclass:
If Actor equips a Blade weapon type in Main hand, primary class becomes "Blade" and their equipment slots reflect that. If they also equip a Tome weapon type in their off hand, their offhand (tier 2 multiclass) class becomes "Tome".

An Actor's third will be based on either what their "Dual Wield" weapon combo is (Blade + Tome = Spellblade), story events /swappable (messiest version to me) or a "title" system based on equipment that changes that multiclass slot.

Skills are learned from equipment and skill use:

Weapon A tracks skill use of Skills XYZ but does not enable to skills. Armors 1, 2, and 3, each are traited with the skills associated with Weapon A. This pushes the player to equip associated items. Once a skill is "mastered" the Actor no longer needs that piece of Armor to access the skill. Since I'm using a Skill leveling system as well. All skills will start at Level 0 with reaching Level 1 in sync with the amount of skill uses needed to Master through equipment pairing.

A lot on paper, but I swear its fairly fluid in practice


Where I am now struggling is in how to balance skill mastery with how many skill/magic types are available; without it being confusing or overwhelming or too overpowering.



How do you go about deciding what Magic Types are associated with what skills in your projects? Whats the workflow like for that thought process?

The lore of my project asks for at least 4 Additonal Skill Types that aren't just "Magic" or "Special"(im doing away with Special most likely).

Halp? lol

 

[ATT_Turan]

\How do you go about deciding what Magic Types are associated with what skills in your projects? Whats the workflow like for that thought process?

My first consideration would be whether it's necessary.

For point of reference, I'll use and describe two different Final Fantasy games.

Take Final Fantasy V (or Tactics). Each class has its own Magic Type (or skill type, but we're sticking with your terminology) for the skills you can learn specifically by getting JP in that class.

It's combined with a Magic Type equip system, where you can be one class but also have the skills of one other (and there's more slots in Tactics, but that's the idea).

That's the only reason those games have those delineations. If it weren't for the equip slot portion of that, limiting how many of your learned skills you can actually use at a time, there's no reason for it.

See that in Final Fantasy VI. You don't go into different classes, you use an equipment learning system much like your game described above. There are no different Magic Types. Everything you can learn in the whole game is just Magic. (each character also has a character-specific category of skills, but that's not germane).

So I think the first question is whether there's a mechanical need for there to be different Magic Types. If you can change equipment to change classes and accumulate skills and retain ownership of them, there's really little purpose of them being different Magic Types except to clutter up your battle command window.

If there is some mechanical need for different Magic Types, then I think it's a pretty clear answer to your question that the skills are placed according to that mechanical need. If you don't want characters to have healing and damaging spells at the same time, then you place them into White Magic and Black Magic and make them mutually exclusive.

 

[Puppet Knight]

So I think the first question is whether there's a mechanical need for there to be different Magic Types. If you can change equipment to change classes and accumulate skills and retain ownership of them, there's really little purpose of them being different Magic Types except to clutter up your battle command window.

I'm giving this a lot of consideration. Something I realized after I posted is that I can likely reduce my weapon types down to 4. And have those be more natural segues into the 4 Magic Types. So for example:

Weapon Type: Skill Type
Tome: Khaana

Instrument: Motley


That at any given time Actors only have access to two Skill Types at a time, but full access to whatever theyve mastered in that Type.


What do you think?

 

[lianderson]

Got something very similar to what was described. 7 weapon types, 15 elements, and over 700 learnable skills. Elements are chosen at the start of the game, and every character can use any weapon and/or piece of equipment.

Took a long time to make, but was worth it in the end. Created a lot of replayability.

 

[Puppet Knight]

Got something very similar to what was described. 7 weapon types, 15 elements, and over 700 learnable skills. Elements are chosen at the start of the game, and every character can use any weapon and/or piece of equipment.

That is definitely inspiring haha.

I haven't even begun to start thinking about how elements might if at all play a factor into my game

 

[NamEtag]

Am I understanding this right? You've got a set of skills for each weapon, but ALSO a set of skills for each Magic type?

Not sure how to deal with magic type, but the weapons boil down to the same questions for any class. What mechanical and narrative identity does a weapon have, and do the skills/magic of that weapon match it, do the opposite, or spin it in different flavors?

Skill Levels will actually serve as a barrier for this. Mastering skills for permanent use is generally a mechanic to train the player in how the skill is used, but if its value is dependent on skill level, its identity gets a little muddled in the experience grind. What's the point in the expensive terraflare if you can just keep levelling mini-flare until they're about the same?

 

[Puppet Knight]

Am I understanding this right? You've got a set of skills for each weapon, but ALSO a set of skills for each Magic type?

So Weapon A + Armor 1,2,3,etc (depending on how many skills are being tracked by the Weapon in order to master each of those skill:



So in this scenario the Basic Spells Tome Weapon tracks the use of the skills: Fire, Ice, Thunder, and Water. Each time the skill is used by the Actor, its meter goes up 1 point.

Access to the skills in this scenario is provided by the Pages Armor Type. Each of those Pages is traited with the associated skill. Allowing the Actor to use the skill in battle while equipped.

Once a meter is filled, the Actor Masters that skill and no longer needs the Armor to perform the skill.

Actors can use any weapons they want for the stat bumps, and whatever Armor they want to access specific skills they haven't learned yet. But finding the correct combos for mastery is the key.

Skill Levels will actually serve as a barrier for this. Mastering skills for permanent use is generally a mechanic to train the player in how the skill is used, but if its value is dependent on skill level, its identity gets a little muddled in the experience grind.

The training of the skills to mastery is what takes up the "Level 0" in this scenario. So for Fire to go from Lv 0 to Lv 1, it will require 5 uses, which lines up with the Weapon meter above^.

(I am working through how to properly link the two plugins via the Skill Mastery plugins JSON, in theory it should be easy to set a the particular weapons being equipped at Lvl 0 for the Skill to gain exp. Thus preventing someone from having a Lvl 4 spell that isn't actually mastered.)

What's the point in the expensive terraflare if you can just keep levelling mini-flare until they're about the same?

The system would be built to prevent just that actually. So at best a maxed out Mini-flare would have the same stats, if not slightly lower then a Lv 1 or even Lv 0 Terraflare. Skill level caps will exist, just still building those bits out.

What mechanical and narrative identity does a weapon have, and do the skills/magic of that weapon match it, do the opposite, or spin it in different flavors?

Weapons and Skills Matching follow logic more than anything at the moment. In order to master Fire Slash you need to master using say a Blade or Axe Weapon that is tracking that skill.

In order to allow for some better choice in playstyle and reduce tedious grinding, skills like Fire Slash would have an Armor Type, Pommel, usable with both by weapon types. That way players are able to stick with Weapon Classes they enjoy without losing complete access to certain techniques.

I am super open to feed back with this bit ^. I'm wondering if I should in fact not allow for multiple weapons to teach the same skills. Granted after the skill is mastered, the Weapon requirements for something like Fire Slash would be Blade or Axe regardless.

Narratively the kinds of Skills will reflect the world: cooking, creation, sword arts, and invoking/evoking. With the natural basics of Fire, Ice, etc acting as foundations.


Going against my earlier revelation to @ATT_Turan 's point, I'll likely maintain the the current 8 Weapon Class Types, to give players some more flexibility, and just build in the subclasses out as more specific combos of those.



Long response, sorry ! But you gave me a lot to go off of there @NamEtag

 

[NamEtag]

Skill level caps will exist, just still building those bits out.

So they're capped at 5? Are you sure you don't want to have mastery only? It'll cut a good chunk of number bloat.

Weapons and Skills Matching follow logic more than anything at the moment. In order to master Fire Slash you need to master using say a Blade or Axe Weapon that is tracking that skill.

Then that's what you need to develop more. For example:
-Blades cover fire, wind, and earth. They are the defensive weapons, holding a lot of self-buffs and interrupt skills, but consume a lot of mp to do pure damage.
-Axe covers thunder, earth, and fire. They are single target dps, applying def debuffs and burst skills. Later variants cut through the magical defenses of beasts, reducing elemental resistances.
-Tomes cover all elements. They are poor physical weapons, but hold mp regeneration skills, and can switch between elemental synergies to fit the situation.

Create identities for each playstyle. Not rigid enough to only allow one build, but with enough narrative content to give yourself material for the dualwield flavoring.

 

[Puppet Knight]

So they're capped at 5? Are you sure you don't want to have mastery only? It'll cut a good chunk of number bloat.

The Skill Levels are definitely the most new addition and the most likely feature to be cut xD. Just from a bandwidth perspective I know its going to be a big haul designing all the skill levels and requirements. I'm doing this in my spare time and its my first project.

Create identities for each playstyle. Not rigid enough to only allow one build, but with enough narrative content to give yourself material for the dualwield flavoring.

Thats the goal, I'm a strong believer in being able to run 4 White mages in Final Fantasy I if that is how someone wants to approach the game. So making each Subclass/Dual Wield Class its own glorious thing is ideal. Thanks a ton

 

[Oggy]

I do agree with ATT_Turan, the more skills types you have the more cluttered your battle screen is going to get especially if your skills are permanently learned thus adding that skill type to the menu in addition to the two the player has equipped. I actually encountered this earlier in my project and decided that even though 'magic' is just a very basic and common listed skill type it worked best for me (probably why its used so much lol).

Now Im not sure if it would help skill type wise but maybe make a skill type called Mastered and have all skills learned via that system put in there. Maybe make two versions of a skill the mastered version and the class/subclass version (which can be the same exact spell with the same name) but once its mastered that one is set to hide the class/subclass version as to not confuse the player. This could clean up the command window a little bit.

As for what skills go with skill type and skill I guess it depends on what you want that skill type to be defined as. Like a skill type Pyro wouldn't necessarily have frost bolt. So I like to think about what that skill type is going to be and what makes it different from others.

 

[freakytapir]

In my game, I also tie elements to weapons, but not directly.
They just happen to share attack stats

For example, a longsword would be based an Aggression and Agility (ATK AND AGI), while fire magic would be Aggression and intelligence (ATK and MAT), While Air magic would be Intelligence and Agility (MAT and AGI). So a swordmage type character could pick between Air and Fire, but not really both. A pure mage character could be pretty decent at most magic, but he could also split his points a bit and pick up a weapon for those pesky high MDF enemies.

 

[Puppet Knight]

Love the feedback!

@Oggy what I've realized I can do to avoid the clutter is use Malikis Omit Skill Type plugin. Since I'm already restricting Actors skill lists via Google Xs equip skill. It'll pair well enough to further reduce clutter. Especially since at max any actor would/should only have access to 2 Skill types max.


@freakytapir I never thought to put such intention in how skill calculations are impacted. I'm gonna look into this a bit more to see if there is a use case that fits within my games lore.

As it is I'm trying to find a way to incorporate an element proficiency level based on element use. This will allow players to really hone on one what Actors they want to specialize in what skills and skill types.

 

[Puppet Knight]

Following up here as I've implemented some changes based on feedback here and off platform:

Since incorporating Moogle_Xs Equip Skill System, I've circumvented the concern of concern about having an overcrowded skills list in battle.

There are no limits to how many Skills Actors will be able to Master through the Train and Track system (Fomars Equipment Skill) I developed built. Players will be able to customize the play style of each character as far as they are willing to put the effort into grinding to master those skills.

They will however be limited in how many skills they will be able to bring into each battle.

"Grimoires" (the projects name sake) determine what types and how many skills can be equipped by Actors to bring into battle. Pages represent how many equip slots each skill takes up. This is to ensure that Actors aren't super OP in all their equips to add in some balancing for those players that grind like hell. Pages types I am still building out, these will either be focused on "Melee", "Range", "Support" type skills, Skill Type break outs, or some combination of the two. Because Special Armors are used to allow Actors to initially use skills (because skill use is used to master and no longer need the extra equips) Any Armor imbued with a Skill does not get factored into the Grimoire's Page limits.


I'll come back in to share some examples of what this looks like for anyone interested. Thank you all for your support so far!

 

[Puppet Knight]

Update here that will also go into a Changelog on the ole itch page.

I am at a really good place with the Skill System and have even solved for the Bloated battle screen concern @ATT_Turan raised thanks to a suggestion from @dragoonwys !

Using the <Skill Types: > note tag, Each skill will have its original database Skill Type plus 2 large group skill types

All Actors have access (trait) only to the "All" Skill Type. So in the Skill menu every skill they have from equipment or have mastered will appear.

In Battle Core, I updated the Command list to be:

Attack
"Grimoire" Skill Type
Defend
Item
Escape

This vets the skill list to only be those skills available (equipped via Moogle_X equip skill or trait from equipment) into one clean list per Actor ^_^.