Map Cap! Who Knew?

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Greetings gentle people of the interwebs,


Let me tell you a little story. So I spent a multitude of hours creating a world map that wasn't going to be used in my project, & an underworld map that also wasn't going to be used in project. Why you might ask? Well I am creating a zeldaish system of interconnected maps, because I don't like the world maps all that much. So naturally I was using these two maps, to plot out the actual maps for my project. Namely, each tile on the world map, & each tile on the underworld map, will each be its own map. So I need to plot out all of the traversable paths of these individual maps, which maps connect to which, where they connect, ensuring there are no maps that aren't accessible by the paths created, designating paths to be roadways that are more direct routes between major settlements that would have evolved over time, the paths of various cave/dungeon systems, where those cave/dungeon systems connect with the surface, etcetera.


So after both maps are done I begin I lay out the standard dimensions of what will be world field & underworld field maps, & start copy & pasting the maps, naming them based on their coordinates on the world & underworld map templates respectively, so that I can remember what each map is suppose to be, & which maps it's suppose to connect with which. Until finally I get this wonderful little message from MV "You can't create anymore maps.", perplexed I try to paste another map, once again "You can't create anymore maps.". Open up the data in the project, to discover I am on Map 999, I still have nearly two hundred to go, & I haven't even really started doing the detail work on the towns (interiors of homes & all of that).


Naturally I reacted with my usual level of zen like calm, that I always do.


    


So I am curious has anyone else encountered this unique bit of joy, & what did you do for a work around?

 

[BigToastie]

There is a script to actually release the cap on this, I will edit this post when i find the source


@XIIIthHarbinger It comes with the plugins as stated below:Zeriab_ExtraMaps

 

[LuLingqi1]

Umm! Okay, this topic is going to be moved, I am almost 100% positive. BUT there is a plugin, I believe it's already in the files that come with RMMV.


My cap "OMFG WHAt?" moment was when I just assumed RMMV naturally set the highest level at 99, and i began to work on my classes, and I had decided the max would be like 400, and suddenly 99 was all I could do LOL

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

There is a script to actually release the cap on this, I will edit this post when i find the source


@XIIIthHarbinger It comes with the plugins as stated below:Zeriab_ExtraMaps

Interesting, I'll have to keep that in mind if I hit that particular wall a second time. I expected there was probably a plugin out there, I just went forward with the first solution that occurred to me.


Specifically, I cut out the even number maps, & doubled the horizontal & vertical dimensions of each of the odd numbered maps, so that that each map went from represent a single tile, to representing four tiles, thereby reducing total cost by 75%.


I was curious to see what other solutions people have come up with on this problem though; as my penchant for as much detail as possible will likely get me into similar trouble again.   

 

[Leon Kennedy]

the meme made me laugh, but yeah it sucks reaching the cap lol.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

@gomiamiheat6804


It's pretty much what I was doing a few hours ago, when I hit that particular wall. 


I honestly was not expecting it, so I was rather blindsided by the whole bit. Most of the map work I had done prior to that I had already scraped, revised, replotted, etcetera, with the exception of world & underworld maps. Which are really just cheat sheets/blueprints for the actual maps. So I was more slightly flustered at the outcome to say the least.

 

[mlogan]

Umm! Okay, this topic is going to be moved, I am almost 100% positive. BUT there is a plugin, I believe it's already in the files that come with RMMV.

Actually, I think not, as it seems OP is more wanting to discuss alternatives in general rather than a specific "I have a problem, HELP!!!" type post. I might be wrong though.

 

[Kes]

Yup, as @mlogan said, as long as this is looking for alternative solutions to discuss it can stay put.  However, if it becomes solely a "How do I...?" thread, then it will be moved.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Actually, I think not, as it seems OP is more wanting to discuss alternatives in general rather than a specific "I have a problem, HELP!!!" type post. I might be wrong though.

You are correct,


As I said, I've already revised the map files by increasing their respective dimensions to achieve overlap with neighboring maps, then deleted the redundant maps, reducing the total amount of space my field maps were taking up by a rather large percentage.


However, it was a problem that I did not anticipate, so I became curious as to how others had circumnavigated similar obstacles themselves; as there is always the possibility that someone discovered a better solution. 


Different minds, move in different directions & all of that.


Not to mention, I suspected other would derive a certain degree of amusement, from the situation.

 

[Andar]

Back to topic ;-)


A lot of us knew - because this isn't the first time this came up.


However, we also know that this isn't exactly a problem, because maps need to be filled with a game to play as well...


What I'm talking about with that sentence is that the development time for almost any game that uses up the map number is so high, that it would take a team years to complete. Even large completed games usually end up with less than 200 maps.


The solution depends partially on why you're using up that many map IDs.


If it is because you make only small maps (like each home on each village their own little map), then one of the solutions is to combine several smaller huts on one map, with enough black spaces between them to pretend to the player that they are on different maps. This is in fact what a lot of commercial programs (including non-RM AAA-Games) do.


If you're using up the IDs because you have a script that generates maps from smaller maps, then you might consider making less many map parts. The entire idea here is to reduce the work by creating dungeons from independent parts, but that requires re-use or you don't need a random generator. Using more than around a hundred parts for this would create enough different random dungeons to keep the player busy for years, and most people won't play that long.


If you're using puzzles and require one map per puzzle - then yes, this limit will hurt. OK, many commercial puzzle games have around 100 puzzles, but depending on how difficult they are that can be played through in reasonable time, and more puzzles will require more maps.


In this case you have no option but to make less many puzzles or try to trick the engine wuth plugins.


If you're using up 999 maps AND those maps are larger (>100x100 tiles), then again there will be no real solution - but again there is none needed because I really doubt such a game would ever be completed or be playable.


Just make the following test: Make a new project, right-click on the map window and load the sample map world-1.


Place the starting point for the player on the next beach and the starting point from the ship next to that, start playtes.


Check how much time it takes just to explore that world (140x140 is not maximum size).


Consider that is without any fights, without any towns or any content at all - which usually slows down exploration a lot.


Now estimate how much time it would be to travel through your entire world if it goes beyond 999 maps, and how many years of development you'll need to fill that with content.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

The solution depends partially on why you're using up that many map IDs.

The simple answer is that I am making a sandbox style RPG, where a great deal of content can be found if the player wants to spend time looking under every rock & into every corner; or can be largely ignored if they want to focus only on the main story. The world & underworld fields were being used in place of an actual world map, as I don't care for them aesthetically speaking, & I don't believe they lend themselves to a sandbox game.


Some connected maps provide very direct routes to key locations, namely well traveled roads from one town to another that would develop over time even if not paved. Other maps are more serpentine due to terrain obstacles & vegetation, where the the player is navigating game trails & goat paths; & obviously not all paths connect to each other, especially in the wilds. These world maps, are then overlaid on the underworld maps, think Deep Roads, Underdark, etcetera from other fantasy mythos. Most of the time the subterranean fields won't intersect with the world fields, except as specific locations. Like the world fields, not all underworld fields connect, & underworld fields serve as the connecting paths between key points in the underworld, & intersections of underworld & world maps.


This was why I was plotting out all the paths & routes ensuring that all maps are reachable, but can't simply be approached in a straight line. 

If you're using up 999 maps AND those maps are larger (>100x100 tiles), then again there will be no real solution - but again there is none needed because I really doubt such a game would ever be completed or be playable.

I've reduced down to 144 world fields & 144 underworld fields, at 200 X 200 tiles; my initial reduction of 288 world fields & 288 underworld fields at 100 X 100 tiles, left insufficient amount of potential space for me to proceed without trepidation; originally it was 576 world fields & 576 underworld fields at 50 X 50 tiles. With 9 cities, 3 military fortifications, & 5 temples being entered from the world fields. & an indeterminate (probably about 25) number of dungeons, primarily used as staging points for elite & higher level monsters, being entered from underworld fields. All of those number remain unchanged.

If you're using up 999 maps AND those maps are larger (>100x100 tiles), then again there will be no real solution - but again there is none needed because I really doubt such a game would ever be completed or be playable.

& I am a one man operation to boot; It is madness I know, glorious madness. I fully expect to spend years beating my head against the metaphorical wall, but I so enjoy it just the same. In the end I can't be other than who I am, & I can't make a three, four, or five hour amusing jaunt down nostalgia lane. Even if I fail spectacularly, I have to pursue making the game I really want to make, or there simply isn't a point in making it at all.   


I understand what You're saying, I even agree to a large extent; (shrugs) but I am me. 

 

[Andar]

@XIIIthHarbinger I know what you mean - I've been working for about 25 years (on-and-off) on a PnP-RPG which is now in version 5.3 - because I completely scrapped four rule versions when they didn't do what I wanted and then changed the concept for the fifth rule set two times...


But it has been played (the fourth version was almost finished and got scrapped as a result of high-level playtests after regular playtests had sufficient results), and your numbers are really off in my opinion, because the required playtime will be to high for anyone to even test it.

 

[bgillisp]

I've reduced down to 144 world fields & 144 underworld fields, at 200 X 200 tiles; my initial reduction of 288 world fields & 288 underworld fields at 100 X 100 tiles, left insufficient amount of potential space for me to proceed without trepidation; originally it was 576 world fields & 576 underworld fields at 50 X 50 tiles. With 9 cities, 3 military fortifications, & 5 temples being entered from the world fields. & an indeterminate (probably about 25) number of dungeons, primarily used as staging points for elite & higher level monsters, being entered from underworld fields. All of those number remain unchanged.

!!! That still sounds insane though. I'm working on a side game with 122 maps that are 45 x 45 each, and the play time for that is still pretty high. Add in battles and such and...what do you want the play time to be? 10000 hours? No one is going to have time to test that much less play that.


To put that in better perspective, in my main game I have a couple 90 x 90 maps, and they on average take 45 minutes - 1 hour to play through each, once the battles were added into the game.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Add in battles and such and...what do you want the play time to be? 10000 hours?

(shrugs)


I couldn't pass that up.


Honestly, my first concern is a believable game world that feels lived in, & from there empowering the player as much as possible to do what they want within the game, & feel that their decisions impact that world. Which I've always known would mean a high potential hour count. 


However, I don't expect to really know how big the game really feels, until I get to a point where I can do a full play test. After that there will probably be revisions. 

 

[bgillisp]

That makes sense. I always say start big, and shrink it if needed. Reason is, it is easier to cut content from maps (in my opinion) than to add content and expand the maps. So maybe now map your first city, and some of the surrounding area (enough to do a quest or two, or maybe enough to do the first main quest), then see how it feels?

 

[Arcmagik]

Essentially you are making the RPG Maker version of something like Elder Scrolls as there is no overworld maps. It is all a series of other maps which I fully understand as there are other games out there that does that. 

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Essentially you are making the RPG Maker version of something like Elder Scrolls as there is no overworld maps. It is all a series of other maps which I fully understand as there are other games out there that does that. 

I would say that Elder Scrolls is certainly an influence, as it is one of my all time favorite series of RPGs. However, I am not trying to build Morrowind in RPG Maker MV. I might be crazy, but I am not THAT crazy.


I love copious amounts of detail in a game world, & I will often spend hours of game time learning about that game world in an Elder Scrolls game for example; however, I've also noticed that many people prefer a quick game where they can go right at the big bad. So essentially I am attempting to provide both players with what they want, & reward them for doing so. Rather than punishing them not playing a certain way.


I would say that my plan is to have only 20% to 25% of the total mapped areas be involved in the main story, while the rest will be for side quests, bonus dungeons, general exploration, Easter eggs, etcetera. My primary goal is simply to avoid the on rails, "go collect the four magic Mcguffins then save the world", cliched adventure. Rather than thrusting the player down the standard "The world is in peril, now go save it!", I want the player to be thrust into "The world is perilous, now go make YOUR mark on it!". 


So I unleash the squirrels as it were, & just let the player go nuts.