Mapping Helpdesk [Last update: Mountains (17th April) and Misc answers (18th)]

Indrah

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Mapping Helpdesk

So, for a long time I’ve wondered if I should perhaps make small tutorials for thematic dungeon mapping (forests, ice, lava, cliffs, etc). But it seems to me most of those would probably get old fast and in any case most need the same advice, so here’s another idea!

The Mapping Helpdesk works like this: you ask, we answer. About how to map stuff.

Example: You don’t know how to make a mountain look natural. Or maybe your concept for a forest temple is not coming along. You tell us your problem and we will try to work it out: giving you advice and mapping tips, new ideas to resolve that area, screenshots of possibles examples, whatever works.

To specify: this is NOT a feedback topic. That’s what Game Screenshots is for. This is a help area. You ask what’s giving you trouble to map, and I (or other people who get there first) will try to give you a small “tutorial” or precise examples/advice on how to proceed.

So yes, these would be small, concise mini tutorials. Starting screenshots are not required, but if you have a very concrete problem and you can’t explain yourself well, a rough image of reference of what you WANT to do or what you HAVE will help.

So, go on! Ask away.

Rules:
-Before asking anything, always check if we’ve answered that same question before.
-Be precise. Don’t just say “I want to map a forest”. Explain what kind of forest you need. Is it lush? Is it spooky? What features will it have?
-Please try to ask one thing at a time. There is such a thing as limited amounts of time to me XD (a couple of questions is fine. A list with 50 is not.)

Tutorial Links

Here are some links to good tutorials you should definitely check out!
(Please give us a hand filling out this section by sharing useful links!)

Mapping in five easy steps (by Indrah)
How to properly use exterior water tiles (by Domin0e)
Gradually Linking Landscapes (by Leumas)
Parallax Mapping (by Leumas)

Non mapping tutorials but useful (such as tileset making)

Guide to simple tileset edits (by Indrah)

Also remember to check out the Game Screenshots topic in the Game Discussion subforum! You may find what you're looking for has already been done by someone else and you can use it as reference or inspiration!

Cleared Questions
How to map spooky/cursed forests
How to map demon castles
How to map large open world map
How to match interior and exterior buildings
How to map libraries (both town and dungeon)How to map towns, villages, etc.

How to map mines [by Lunearea]

How to map mountains.
 
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Indrah

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-reserved post-
 

fofay

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Ok let me break the ice :D .

I'm mapping a cursed forest for my game, since the RTP doesn't have really spooky looking trees (or anything that much spooky), how can I get a spooky vibe out of the RTP?

I also tinted the screen and inserted fog into the map but still that ain't enough. Any hints?

Maybe it is a dumb question but still would like to improve my mapping skills (since that's really the only thing it seems I can do).

EDIT:

Just remembered that I also need some hints for a demonic castle.

I tried most of the tiles but the castle always looks human and plain :/
 
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Shablo5

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How to make a LARGE world map, and do it right. I'd like to see your opinions on this. Of course the actual content changes depending on your game, but there must be some rules, as this mapping is sort of different from your average landscaping, right? Especially since we don't handle water often enough when mapping most areas.
 

Ksi

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fofay: For your forest try to add strange events - things like fog clearing or getting thicker, thicker areas with a few clearings. Music and sound effects can be a huge help with setting atmosphere in this case. Try adding animal and bird sounds, some wind clips and spooky sounds for ambiance. Also, glowing lights that disappear.

As for the Demonic Castle, try using the blue-vine wall tile and floor/roof to make things look a bit less-than-normal. Also, maybe try adding things like cracks and slime (there's some green and black stuff on the A2 tiles) and maybe dome of the dirtier water. Of course, if your Demons have a more humanistic society, furniture would be good, too. You could try editing colours of the normal RTP furniture to add a more inhuman feel.
 

RavenTDA

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@fofay

Can't tell what kind of tint you have but overall downing of the saturation is a good idea. Make it a tad darker you could even try upping blue or purple a bit or even green. You don't have to have all the colors the same. There's spiderwebs in the default you can plug in as well as adding in more trees (or all the trees) without leaves has a tendency to look more "scary". You could also add in ghost events by using regions so that when you approach an area a person or animal comes into view and then disappears again but keeping the event semi transparent. Placing the purple swampy water instead of regular water if there's streams in your forest can help as well.

@Shablo5

I'd try getting an idea of what shapes are going to look good by drawing them first. Then you could translate those basic shapes into the editor. From there once you know where the player is going to start lay in the basic ground such as snow, desert and so on. Then go into the details one by one after the fact. But it's much better to know every place before you start making a map as well as how much free roaming your character can do. There's a reason why there's always either a bunch of forest, mountains or the fact you are stuck on an island in the beginning of old games. It's to reduce where the player can go without resorting to "no you can't go there yet" or "oh golly gosh the bridge is out".
 

Indrah

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Ok, whoah, that was fast. Nice! Let's get to this.

Ok let me break the ice :D .

I'm mapping a cursed forest for my game, since the RTP doesn't have really spooky looking trees (or anything that much spooky), how can I get a spooky vibe out of the RTP?

I also tinted the screen and inserted fog into the map but still that ain't enough. Any hints?
Cursed Forest advice:

Cursed or spooky areas are all about AMBIENCE. There are several ways to go around this, but here are a few simple pointers:

-Closed off, small areas work better than wide open areas.

-Washed out colors and darkness work well, but remember to NEVER make it so dark the player can't see jack ****.

-Lighting effects are acceptable, but do not go overboard.

-Unsettling details. Blood, bones, unexplained things showing up.

-A good music and sound effect to accompany the map will enhace the effect a LOT. Be careful with your sound choices.

-Do not rely on cheap scares. I cannot stress this enough. (Sudden screams in the player's ears just to make them jump or exploding stuff are not spooky).

As for more practical advice: have you checked out Lunarea's and Kajini's stuff? They have a good tile selection for spooky tiles in general and some sweet haunted trees in particular. If you search around the resource topics you will also find a lot of neat stuff such as skulls, bloodied tiles, spiderthreads, etc.

Lunarea's spooky forest tiles

Liberty's tile edits

More stuff:

-Use faded out colors: edit your tiles so the colors are darker and washed out. Greneery should be darker than the normal "happy green", dirt should be grayer. Try not to abuse "happy" tiles such as flowers and vibrant colors.

-You can also try to make toxic looking or "offputting" flora to signal danger, but don't go overboard with that.

-You can use a fog layer, BUT BE WARNED. Never abuse fogs or lighting effects. Your players will get desintesized to them and ignore them if you use them on ever map. If you use fog here, other dungeons must be without.

-As Libby said (damn ninja!) play aroung with effects such as sound and graphic cues.

-Really, REALLY invest some time in gathering resources. Spooky stuff is not that uncommon and it will help you a lot if you have a few nice tiles. You can also make a lot of improvement my simply editing your tiles a bit (colors, rearrangement, etc. Check out the links section for the tutorial).

Here's a very quick and messy example I did. if this is not what you're going for, specify and we'll try to work it out!

5NDFI.png


Excuse the ****tiness of the finish, it's just a sample.

What it has:

-RTP only tiles. Recolored to washed out colors or different hues.

-Screen Tint (darkened with some gray)

-Simple circular "light" effect.

This is the absolute barebones. It has absolutely no new tiles or hijinks, and it's meant to be only a very rough sample. (I cannot stress that enough, that is not an actual MAP, just some reference.).

I will adress the Demonic Castle and Large World map next, but I need a break to have lunch and do some real life stuff. Stay tuned!

(And if you need further information, don't be afraid to ask!)
 

fofay

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This is the style I was aiming at ! :D

Thank you Indrah ! Looking forward for the Demonic Castle and the World Map (also interested how to make the World Map better or at least acceptable).

Also I did get all of Lunareas tilesets and implemented them into my game (THANK YOU LUNAREA !) but when it has something that I need it lacks something else that I would like to have in my forest.

Thought about recoloring the exterior part of the RTP for darker stuff but didn't bother that much with it tho. Looks like I need to start checking some tutorials on that part ;) .
 

Indrah

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Then I'll consider that question as SOLVED. I'll link it at the OP later. ;D

Also: good maps run on good TILESETS and STRUCTURE.

Structure is universal, but tilesets are not. I do not mean CUSTOM TILES, I mean the TILE SHEETS. The tiles you have avaliable to map with.

The rtp is flat out terribly AS IT IS (it's ordered all weird), but it's already a very good start if you mix and match its tiles into your own sheets.

In short, look into resource topics and tile editing. Those two alone enable for a godawful amount of awesome stuff to map with, believe me.

(It sucks, but effort pays off, as much as I hate to admit it)

As for the Demon Castle, I need some clarification:

Do you mean demon like "spooky beast-like demons" or "a castle where demons LIVE like people".

The Lava and ruins type, or the sinister royal type?
 

fofay

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Sinister royal type would be it.

Always saw demons as royal stuff (with bloodthirsty and ruthless minions).

And I believe I'm going to make my own sheets :D .
 

Indrah

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Not all of them must be like FULL CUSTOM GO! Many times you can use made sheets from the rtp adding what you need in an extra sheet to save you time, but at least ONE sheet shoudl aways be with extras you made yourself or edited stuff or custom tiles, etc. Gives more flexibility than the raw RTP.

Editing the A tiles is a bit more annoying, but dodable :I The B-E are loose sheets so they're easy to do.
 

Indrah

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6hxP7.png



“You’ve done well to come all the way here, human, I will give you that. You defeated most of my minions, but this is the end.”

The Demon King grinned and gestured to his companions, all down for the count.

“I you do not want them to die, you know what you must do.”

He looked down. His sword had fallen into the water, now resting among the bones of the poor souls who had angered the dark lord before.

The guards behind him tensed. There was no other way out. He could hear ominous growling and hissing coming from the pit.

He took a deep breath. No other way.




He jumped in.


How will it end?! Will blodnie reach his sword before the evil glowy eyes in the wall get to him? Will Oscar betray his master and come to his rescue! Will the Demon King stop the proceedings and loudly claim his homoerotic love for the hero?

We will never know, because I am basically being a darn idiot and this isn't even a game. Orz.

Yes, the whole "sample" screenshot got away from me in a BIG way. Leave me alone, I get my jollies where I can get them ;m;

And now that I’m done making a fool of myself, let’s go to the actual question: DEMON CASTLES (of the royal kind)!

First of all, this may variate depending on what the castle is FOR. The “demon” part only implies demons are there, but their behaviour could be completely different: from acting beastly to being basically like humans.

The castle could be many things: a ruined mess, a dark and broody horror house, or simply a castle where demons live not much differently from how humans would. We will focus on the last one.

In short, a “royal” demon castle is a castle where demons live. I could even be a normal "town" loction if the demons in it were not hostile, but what we want is probably to make a dungeon, so here we go.

Some basic rules when making any dungeon:

Have some space between the start and the finish of it, with “core” and “hallway” maps.

Core maps are usually the entrance/boss chambers where events will usually happen, as well as puzzles and specially important rules (havigna treasure, a trap, etc).

Hallway maps are “off” maps where nothing very interesting happens. These are usually necessary. You can’t have a dungeon made of 100% core, busy maps; you will tire the player out. The player needs some easy “walk around without having to focus too much” time to recover between heavy gameplay parts.

Try to make exploration interesting by making sidetrack roads and small areas dedicated to treasure/extra events.

Lineal dungeons are usually boring and not recommended unless they're absolutely meant to be that way.

Always keep in mind, however, to not make so many sidetracks the player can’t find his way around.

And now for advice on Demon Castle dungeons in particular:

-It’s a castle, where demons live. You don’t have to map it exactly like a human castle, but having at least: kitchen, armory, bedrooms, etc; may be a good way to start. Anything you could put in a human castle goes, and you can go even farther: you could have weird mystical demon rooms, dungeons especially dedicated to confusing heroes (hey, they're demons, I'm sure they get a lot of visitors of that type! etc. Puzzle rooms are easier to make this way.

-If you want to put puzzles in it, be careful to integrate them in a way that makes SOME sense, if you can manage it. If there are switch puzzles that close gates, or raise bridges, or anything of the sort, make sure they’re located in a way that would make sense for the people (or demons) living in it, as well as to suit your gameplay plans. Players won’t mind if you bend the rules of reason a bit, but putting a lever that opens the throne room in the toilets is not something you should do (unless it’s a comedy event).

-Castles usually have multiple floors, so you can go with basements, dungeons, gardens, as well as towers, and up to three main floors without it feeling odd.

-If you are making a “lived in” castle, remember the royal parts of the castle won’t have the same style as the servant areas!

-Royal means they probably have money. Don’t skimp out on the luxury on the high end areas, but remember to keep the servant spaces more humble.

-Hallways are your friends. They’re easy to map and lock up to prevent player advancement, which helps implementing simple puzzles like switches and key finding.

-Don’t try to be absolutely realistic: you will fail. If you feel you can’t add a certain room a castle “should have”, skip it. Players won’t mind if you lack a room for the maids to sleep in.

Mapping style advice:

-Think as the “boss” of the castle. What sort of ruler is he? Is he cruel? Arrogant? How would HE decorate his castle? This influences a LOT on the mood of the castle: it could be a horror house filled with horrfying chains and bloodied décor, or simply a darker version of the royal furniture.

-Rugs are good for a luxurious feel. So do flags and statues. Depending on your castle style, choose some that go well together and spread them around. (Rememeber, only on the luxury areas!)

-Keep on “cold” (blues, dark greens) or “violent” (dark red, purple) colors. I find dark blues, purples and washed out greens work well, even better than violent red, which is a bit too tacky sometimes. Some gold or silver details are fine, too.

-If you want a “demonic” vibe, you can recolor flowers and similar items to purplish or bluish hues. Dark reds may also work.

-Light effects COULD be used, but I don’t recommend them. You could, however, use lamps and illumination sprites without an actual light effect with a simple tint (a very dim one, just for effect, not actually darkening).

Here you can see the above screenshot without all the extracrap in it. It’s not a perfect example, but it’s a start, specially for coloring:

LTKV0.png


On the screenshot:

-Rtp tiles, recolored to blues and purples

-A few custom edits (stuff on the small table, the critters on the wall)

-Subtle tint (bluish and grey)

And here are a few images from some maps I did for Nessiah some time ago, also along the same lines of Demon Castle:

In order: a hallway, a small inner garden, the armory, the kitchen, the throne room and a bedroom.
vPzip.png


csyFx.png


MwQPw.png


1DqKN.png


QFlNk.png


As you can see, the luxury areas and servant areas are mapped differently: the kitchens and the armory are underdecorated, lack rugs, statues or any sort of posh décor, while the areas where the royals live (the bedrooms, the throne room) are way more opulent.
I hope this was informative. There’s not really a secret to Demon Castles. I usually just choose a color and style, and go from there.

It’s the little details such as statues, flags, paintings and odds and ends that make the demon castles, but here’s a brief cheat list to keep in mind:

-Statues

-Flags

-Luxury decoration such as paintings, flower vases, weaponry mounted on walls, etc

-Archways

-Different ground and wall tiles to separate royal/servant areas

-Gloomy/Gothic styles

-Stay away from extreme lighting effects and tints
 
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fofay

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Thank you very much ! :D

Now I already have an idea how to complete the Demon Castle in my game ;) .

Thank you again Indrah.
 

Archeia

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Testing waters, but Indrah, how about making buildings and interiors~

Mostly matching up the outside look of a building and the interior. Let's say a normal house and a mansion. :D
 
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Indrah

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I'll be posting the world map tips once I get a last stuff i need verified (usign soemone's screenshot) and then I'll get to that tomorrow (hopefully).

Done! With screenshots by guests (because they look so much better than what I could do).

Ok, here we go: how to make large world maps!

Let’s take it easy, since world maps are a bit tricky. For starters, the very basics: there are two types of world map:

-Stage selection type

This sort of maps are usually not walkable, and if they are they don’t have combats or encounters besides moving between locations.

The purpose of these maps is to visually represent movement without having the world map be open or combat based. It works very well for small game or games that put a heavy emphasis on thematic areas without wanting filler areas in between.

I strongly recommend this kind of map if you’re not too sure of your mapping skills, since the player will rarely resent these maps at all.

You can also easily spend some time sprucing up this map with parallaxed details, since it will be relatively small but important.

Here’s a sample of an awesome parallaxed world map of this kind from Twice upon a Hero by Lunarea:

WorldMapSS.png


-Open world type

Just think Final Fantasy. I should not have to explain what these maps are like XD

Anyway, these are maps where the player will have to manually walk between locations, usually having random encounters along the way.

The purpose of these maps are for the “trips” to be done as a sort of “dungeon”. This cuts out the need for specific dungeons moving from point A to point B by making a more generic road space. It also allows for more exploration, allowing the developing to place secret locations the players would not find if they did not deviate from the beaten path.

This style is NOT recommended for people with small games in mind. Unless you have a very clear idea of what you’re doing, you’re better of making a “choose your destination” based map. Large world maps (as we will see now) are tricky for the players to accept, as they will spend a lot of time there, and easy to mess up.

Here are some examples for you to look, but honestly, you probably already know what large world maps are like:

Porcupine Princess’ world map (by Archeia Nessiah)

Valera’s world map (by Deckiller)

Any map from snes rpgs usually go this way. (these maps are too large t have here, please follow the links to see them).

With that out of the way, let’s try to tackle some general advice for Open world types.

Some basics first:

-These maps tend to be large, but keep in mind the scope of your game. Having a world map that feels empty and boring will destroy any immersion your player could get into. Don’t try to simply expand your world map size if you don’t have the content for it.

-ALWAYS keep in mind what your gameplay requires out of your map. If you can’t access the forest in the first chapter, make sure you have a way to block it off (more on this later).

-That said, make sure your game setting fits the map. If you have two countries at war, don’t put them on different edges of a large map.

That put together:

Step one: recap all your map needs by plot and game. Countries, important locations, rivers, peaks, dungeons.

Step two: place your recapped locations in the map and try to arrange them ina way that makes sense for the game.

Step three: try to place blockades to fit the game flow (check points, broken bridges, mountains) and extra locations as needed (stepover towns and inns, hidden locations, etc)

Step four: Polish. You will probably need to jag around the edges of the landmasses a lot and add forests, grassy areas, etc. Try to finish up the map to look a bit natural (I say a bit because the RTP is square and there is nothing we can do about that.

And now for extra advice!

-Don’t get overly obsessed with using all areas (snow/plains/wasteland/etc). If they don’t fit, they don’t fit. Don’t try to force them in just for the sake of having them.

-Don’t clutter areas. You can have a large amount of houses together to signify a town, but don’t spam tiles just because it looks empty. Make good sue of forests and grass and similar.

-Make identifiable roads for the player to follow, at least in the main areas. It’s fine if a secret location is hard to find, but the player should not get lost going from the plot locations. Put signposts and roads along the ways if necessary.

-Some easy ways to rope off places you should not be able to access: bridges and rivers, mountain ranges, closed off locations (towns etc), walls and kingdom borders, checkpoints, etc. A good trick is also to make forests non passable tiles. This means you will have to map a bit differently, however, so keep that in mind.

-Do not map zoomed out too much. It’s easy to lose perspective. Remember to go into normal zoom and check out how the game looks from the player’s perspective.

-Some general geographic facts to remember: earth is elliptical and the sun rays are not even, so the climate of places around the world are different. The north and the south poles are ice because the sun rays don’t really hit it. The continents on the middle are dry and hot because the get the full brunt of the sun’s rays.

For some extra advice I could honestly not give myself reasonably, have a link:

http://www.fantasymaps.com/101/
 
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Archeia

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Good job Indrah~

I ...really want that windowskin in twice upon a hero hahaha
 

Lunarea

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Hehe, Archeia! I'm pretty proud of how it turned out. :lol:

-

One thing I want to add about world maps is that you should have one, even if it never actually appears in any form inside the game. It's a very good way to conceptualize your game world and help you develop world lore. Seeing where everything is on the map makes it easier to reference locations in dialogue- which is crucial in making the world seem larger without having to actually make a ton of maps to show it. Celianna has an awesome world map maker here, for example. You can use it as an excellent realistic base for your world map. :)
 

fofay

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Ok, so I got stuck making an ordinary cave/dungeon. Nothing long but still you have to walk around a few mins (and also collect the loot in it :D ).

Now, I have a problem where I can't decide what combination of wall/floor tiles to make. Rocky walls and dirt floor don't go together (at least not in my eyes, but then again I'm a newbie).

So, are there some convincing combinations for making a cave? (convincing as in, some combination that makes the cave look more realistic... I tried adding moss to the stone walls but that just looks like a blob or something, doesn't look like moss),

The question is most likely confusing but please :D .
 

Indrah

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Uh...that's not really a "valid" question as long as "mapping" goes. For tile choices, just experiment.

Try to mess around with hues and simply mix the tiles up. You shoudl aslo look around the resource topics and see if you see stuff you like.

I honestly do not have a list of what goes together and not. I just experiment every time I need something.

As for making "realist" maps: chuck that aspiration out the window right now.

Chances are, your players are playing a RM game. They do not expect or care about it. Just go with what feels right for your game. If you want to make your cave BLUE and say it's special type of sand, GO FOR IT. It's a fantasy game, chances are players will not mind as long as you make somethign really weird without an excuse.

In short: no one is going to give a **** if you stick crystals and skull shaped fungi on a blue cave if you give some excuse for it in your setting, so do ot get overly worried about what would be realistic. This does not mean you can be irrational and put random stuff there without rhyme or reason.
 
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TheBrogrammer

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This is a wonderful idea!

But right now, I need to make a library. It's not huge (33x21 is my working base), but I do want something more than just bookcase bookcase bookcase bookcase bookcase all across the floor taking up space. After all, that's not what a good library has! Some of the things I'd like to include are a librarian's desk, and a corner showing the shoddy condition of the library. It is still used, has one floor (one room if I can), it's wooden, and is mostly carpeted. Oh, and the music is the "Quiet tune" from the BGM Package, if that helps with the style any.

Thanks for all the help! :lol:
 

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While talking about anime with a friend got the idea of doing this. :kaopride:
4m6nhlF.jpg

Character: Mirajane Strauss from Fairy Tail.

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