Mapping Helpdesk [Last update: Mountains (17th April) and Misc answers (18th)]

chlaforce

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Hey guys, my question is more about level design then map design..if that makes sense? I hope it's okay.

Basically what I'm designing right now is a mansion, similar I'd assume to the demon castle in size and design. The problem I'm having is finding a use for rooms. I mean, I want the mansion to be huge as most of the game takes place in it and like you said, there needs to be hallways and areas where nothing's going on, but I don't want to have rooms that are pointless/empty. For example, when the player is exploring, I don't want them to enter into a room that isn't there for a reason. It just wastes time.

I guess what I'm asking is how do you make a large map that has many areas, and still have everything be there for a reason? What can I do to make a room important or necessary to the game?

Thanks!
 

Domin0e

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Well, a mansion would be owned by landlord, who has servants. So, your mansion would have a wing for servants, their quarters and kitchen would be there. The landlord himself would have a bedroom, a study, maybe some sort of library, a dining room, another kitchen (a prosperous one this time), he could have an armory as well. A wine cellar would be another nice touch. I recommend you take a look at the jobs in the World Building Discussion - Medieval Times Thread. Although those are mainly for castles, some like the butler could be used for a mansion, too.

Other than that, private rooms for the landlords family, if he has one, can be added. Maybe there is some sort of occultism involved, and he has a secret room in the basement where he praises Cthulu or something. Depending on the setting, he could also have a laboratory, a workshop or something similar.
 

Ksi

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Don't forget the secret sex dungeon. ;p

Seriously, though, check out plans of manors and mansions to see what rooms they have. You can always add gardens, insectariums, courtyards, bedrooms for the inhabitants (kids, guests, master and mistress as well as staff). Don't forget an attic, maybe a greenhouse, various storerooms, some secret passages for shortcuts, hidden nooks, art rooms/hallways, bathrooms, library, study, sunroom (where guests are entertained), dining room, grand hall, foyer, many storage rooms, pantry, cellar, music room (some had a room dedicated to performances, whilst another to learning), gentlemens room (where the men could drink and smoke cigars) and the women's room (where the women would gossip), a nursury (different from the kids room as it's just for babies/infants, with an adjoining bedroom for the nanny) and of course the kitchens... there are many, many different rooms you could implement.
 

Domin0e

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Don't forget the secret sex dungeon. ;p
Sure thing, mind giving me a tour through yours? :p

Another possible room, although not inside would be an atrium, just to add some greenery ;)
 

Ksi

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Sure thing, mind giving me a tour through yours? :p

Another possible room, although not inside would be an atrium, just to add some greenery ;)
...I actually have one in a game of mine, but since it's on another site and engine, I won't link it. Though if you really want to see... PM me.

That said, you could also invent rooms if you want. A panic room, a stable, an area for the chickens, a place where the killer geese are kept, a mortuary, a small chapel, graveyard, underground crypts, museum, treasury, a place where the senile old people are kept, a place for the killer sharks, the underground munitions factory, the sewers, a rubbish dump room, a dumb-waiter as a shortcut would be cool~

Lots of ideas. Also, think about the people who lived in the house and inject their personalities on the places they lived. Maybe a scholar owned a room next to the library and had a door between the two put in. Perhaps the chef got sick of people stealing food and decided to turn one of the small storage rooms off the kitchen into a sleeping area. Maybe one of the children had a pet and kept it in their room. Perhaps the wife was having an affair with the gardener and there was a nook in the garden they used to meet in. Were they messy? Clean? Did they have hobbies? Interests? Perhaps one of the children didn't like toys or preferred a certain type over others. There's a lot of ways you can make this mansion feel more real, especially if you're going to be in it for a lot of the game.
 

Xenophil 2.0

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Ok so i was lead her by Luna (Thank you btw!) and her is my biggest mapping problem. I can only map nature. I am absolutely horrible at mapping towns/villages and the most i can ever do is make the walls of the ity and then i am stuck . _ . so yea until i learn how to do this any game i make will be on a complete stand still.
 

Indrah

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Oh boy, so many new ones and so little time. Ok, let’s nail one today.

Matching outside and inside buildings (with unrelated picture to go with, as always)



The party: It’s been five years since the hero settled down and everyone’s invited to the party to celebrate his marriage anniversary.

And here’s the raw version if the npcs are getting in the way:

As you can see, it’s a very simple shape outside: inside it’s considerably larger (twice or more as big). It's SUPPOSED to be a big house, not quite a manor but a well off dwelling.

As always, I’m going to be assuming you know the basics of mapping. If that's not the case or you want some extra tips, hit the 5 step mapping tutorial here.

So! Basic rules:

-Do not finish an area before making the entire layout for both exterior and interior: if you have to remap, it’s better to do it while it’s only a layout than to adapt a fully detailed one.

-Keep a strict shape similarity, but loose dimensional size ratio.

-Interiors are overall larger than exteriors to allow for detailed mapping.

-Keep a similar scaling system whenever possible during the game. (try not to have one house that’s twice as big inside and then a house the same size inside and outside).

-Keep in mind what the building is. Don't make poor houses mansion sized.

There are basically two ways to go about this: making the exterior first, or making the interior first.

It’s usually a good idea to start with whatever you feel will give you the most trouble: if you’re unsure of how big your interior will be in practice, make it first, and then adapt the exterior to that.

As for size ratios: you can do as you like, as long as the size feels good for your game. Don’t get obsessed over how “realistically” big or small it should be. You don’t have to be exact with ratios and sizes as long as the visual shape is the same.

Exterior building mapping:

-DO NOT MAKE BUILDINGS TOO LARGE. Unless it’s an entire dungeon area designed to be like that (or a very large castle) RM games do not handle large buildings well. They look way too blocky.

-Don’t be afraid of being unrealistic. One or two tile high floors are perfectly acceptable and in fact recommended.

-Stay away from entirely square shapes if you can help it. If you don’t know what shapes a house could be, look up some medieval pictures or other graphical reference to give you ideas (heck, you could hit the screenshots or project dev sections too).

-Stay away from weird building shapes. Unless there is a very definite reason for them, swastika or zeta shaped buildings will look odd (so no tetris game of houses, people).

-When making buildings with multiple floors, play around with shapes and sizes: the second floor doesn’t have to be the same size as the first. The building materials may also be different (for example, a house with a stone or brick first floor and a lighter wooden second floor).

-Keep, as always, the context of your setting in mind. If it’s a very poor town, don’t use posh marble walls with a florid hedge.

-Feel free to use fences, hedges, farmlands, trees and wilderness or any other method to occupy “free” space around the building.

Interior building mapping:

-Remember corridors and multiple room distributions exist (so use them).

-While rooms are usually square shaped, they don’t have to be all the same size or distributed symmetrically (if you look at the sample map, everything is slightly off-centre from the main entrance).

-If you can’t fit a room in but you don’t need it, ditch it. A manor can’t fit a servant room? No one will mind. Unless you’re making a very important area that requires every single space, you have creative freedom. Just stick to the basics and you’ll be fine (a house will at least have a sleeping area, possibly a kitchen and a living area, etc).

-Remember you can change the walls and floors across the house to signal different areas (kitchens with stone floors, living rooms with rugs, etc. Refer to sample map).

-Don’t get too crazy with clutter: remember people have to walk the place.

-As always, keep in mind your setting. Poorer houses will have fewer rooms, while richer ones will have a lot more, and different building materials, luxury things like rugs, etc.

That’s all I can think about on the subject at the moment. It’s not honestly a complex thing: keep the SHAPE the same, sizes can be different inside and outside, keep size ratios similar thorough the game. That’s all!

-----

Next we will tackle libraries.

@Brogrammer: I usually give generic advice, so telling me the size and tile choices for a library is a bit too particular (and what BGM is the “quiet tune”, anyay?) since I’m not going to be making a map for you, just giving hints and genral rules. (If i made really definite tile choices and such it woudl be of no use for any other map of a similar nature).

When I say to be precise with questions I mean to define the THEME well (in this case, a library that's slightly dusty), not the dimensions of your particular map (since the advice should work for everyone and not be tailored to a single user).

I will be making generic advice about library mapping in general next time.
 
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TheBrogrammer

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I usually give generic advice, so telling me the size and tile choices for a library is a bit too particular (and what BGM is the “quiet tune”, anyway?) since I’m not going to be making a map for you, just giving hints and genral rules. (If i made really definite tile choices and such it would be of no use for any other map of a similar nature).When I say to be precise with questions I mean to define the THEME well (in this case, a library that's slightly dusty), not the dimensions of your particular map (since the advice should work for everyone and not be tailored to a single user).

I will be making generic advice about library mapping in general next time.
Ok, thanks for the help! And yeah, I probably was a tad too specific... sorry about that. -_- I hope I gave you enough to work with theme-wise. Oh, and I am using the RTP, because I'm too lazy to set all the collisions for a whole new tileset right now, and most good tilesets cost money I don't have.

Oh, and the Quiet Tune is part of the 20$ RPG Maker 3 BGM Package on the store.
 

Indrah

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So! Today we’re covering libraries.

So, libraries. Libraries (I should not have to say this) are defined by one thing: books. You can also fill it with other sources of information depending on your game setting: crystals or orbs, scrolls, whatever takes your fancy, as long as it’s an information hub.

Some things you can add to libraries as a whole:

-Bookcases (obviously).

-Books, papers, scrolls, etc lying around.

-Tables for people to read and study.

-Librarian’s desk.

-Empty boxes/tables/etc to return books.

-Separate rooms for study halls and book storage.

-Book repair room.

-Forbidden book section (secure).

-Thematic sections (children’s books, magic, history, etc). They can be rooms, halls, rows of bookcases, anything.

Game-wise, we come across two library types: “town” libraries, and “dungeon” libraries.

“Town” libraries:

While not necessarily located in a town (some games like FF5 made libraries BE an entire town and dungeon all in one) they are usually:

-Large and/or spacious (in most cases).

-In a good state (no serious disrepair).

-Have people working or living in there, as well as reading or studying (basically not empty during open hours).

Here’s an example (haha, you thought I’d go without examples today? Not likely).



Raw version:

“Dungeon” libraries:

A staple rpg dungeon. Dungeon libraries are simply library spaces taking a dungeon role. They largely depend on setting: they could be cursed, abandoned and ruined, dark, well lit, invaded by monsters, anything goes. A few tricks to make these:

-Some degree of disrepair (depending on setting)

-Bad lighting (not pitch black, just less light to create a spooky or gloomier atmosphere).

-Books out of place, in the floors, stuff strewn around, etc.

An double example map day! Here’s a dungeon style library (rather small, but you get the point).



Raw version:

Some other tips and advice for libraries as a whole.

(And take advice from the classics, peeps!)

-Secret passages and moving bookcases! Those are as cool as they are cliché. Just don’t over abuse them.

-Remember your rooms don’t have to be just boring old squares. Hallways, multiple rooms, different floors, basements, etc, all count.

-Not all rooms need to have more books than floor. You can make “study” rooms or halls with few bookcases and store the actual gross of the library in dedicated rooms.

One last hint everyone should at least consider: EDIT YOUR TILES; PEOPLE.

In dungeons where you must repeat a specific object a lot, like this (books and bookcases) small, definite edits to the tiles like recolors and rearranging, mixing etc, can help a WHOLE LOT to take out some of the monotony. (You can find a tile edit tutorial link at the OP).

For example: you could make a heap of book recolors and formations to make book stacks, study spaces, papers and writing tools strewn around.

In fact, Frick it. Have a few crappy edits.



(No, I refuse to ser the tileset for you, people >I)

As you can see, they are nothing out the other world, but they work just fine:



Third sample in one tutorial? Holy **** this is getting serious.

Yeah, I got really carried away, so bite me >I Just some samples to see possibilities that got away from me. Example mapping with no context is just so fun darnit XD

SO! Don’t be lazy or scared and take the plunge, peeps: edit your tile sheets! It's not that hard, anyone can do it. (ANYONE. No excuses.)

And that’s it! It seems I get farther and farther out of control with every darn query, but eh.
 
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EternalShadow

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This is pretty cool. How though, would you make a good mountainous map (with and without water, not all mountainous areas are sources of water lol) with the RTP tiles? Shift-clicking's one way to go about it but as others say, the end result is rather blocky, the map in general is time-consuming to make as a result and it's difficult to place vegetation on the map, especially grass and suchlike near the cliffs. The reason for this is that the grass tile only allows x or o passability, not star. If I place a grass tile on the edge of a mountain tile, then I can walk over said mountain tile!

Anyway, I'd be interested to know how you tackle said issues.
 

KRokon

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Hello. First off, I would like to apoligize for the topic I created as I didn't know this existed. Thanks for going easy on me.

I just brought the futuristic tiles and wanna make the best of them, but don't know how to properly use some of them. I wanna try

to make a proper city and house as well. Any chance of a tutorial of these tiles getting made?
 

Indrah

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@Krokon: Sure, but I tackle the queries in order of arrival, so theres a few in the way before we get there.
 

KRokon

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@Krokon: Sure, but I tackle the queries in order of arrival, so theres a few in the way before we get there.
Alright. That's perfectly fine.
 

Choco-Elliot Wyvern

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I don't mean to necropost at all...But I would like to know how to map a city.

The Kind of city I need to know how to map is basically a bustling town with lots of people.There's no real theme to it like market city or something.The only real feeling I need is a busy town with lots of people so lots of living space and stuff like that.

It just a fantasy type of city but not like elves and stuff and if I had to pick a time slot..I guess Renaissance...but there's still gonna be like a playground and stuff in there somewhere too...

Think of your castle city.It's always a big bustling city with merchants everywhere shouting deals,children running around screaming playing tag on the pavement.

Here's a few pictures(Some of these are RM pics I found on google images XD)





The feeling I had with the city is that it will be pretty big and have different districts like:

-A Market district

-Residential district

-Poor District

etc.

There should still be stone walls around the city and I would like most of the city to be pavement though but if you guys don't think that's a good idea then it's fine :D

Thanks in advance Guys :D And I really appreciate it :)
 
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RyanA

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What kind of city? Medieval, Modern or Futuristic? :3
 

Choco-Elliot Wyvern

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Updated my original post
 
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Indrah

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Sorry, I've been extrmely caught up with comission work and I havent gotten around to answering the mapping helpdesk in a while :/ I'll try to a couple in the next couple days.


@Choco Elliot Wyvern: Those images are already hiuge reference sets. What else are you asking? Just make houses, split the city into streets, make some areas poorer looking and some others richer. If you cant to be fancy put city walls, or gardens, or lampposts, etc.


If you yourself say "there's nothign special to it" there is not much I can say but "make a city, put all your game NEEDS in there (building and facility wise) and fill the empty space afterwards with houses and parks and shops and whatever.


I don't really get what you want me to say. I mean, you already provided sample images but no other context so what is it that you want to know?


If what you're stuck on is the "busy" aspect of it, put on lots of shops a bazillion npcs going around. If its a big tradicng city, put a lot of shops and maybe storage houses. Treading houses. Hotes and inns.


If theres a lot of people living in it, put a lot of residential houses. If theres a slum, make the hosues pooper lookign and clustered tohetjer into narrower streets.


Litter the avenuyes with things: merhcants, carts, boxes, peoplñe going around.


If that's not what you're lookign for, you'll have to specify.
 

Indrah

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Ok, so I'll do one before going to bed today. Here Xenophil asked:

Ok so i was lead her by Luna (Thank you btw!) and her is my biggest mapping problem. I can only map nature. I am absolutely horrible at mapping towns/villages and the most i can ever do is make the walls of the ity and then i am stuck . _ . so yea until i learn how to do this any game i make will be on a complete stand still.
So we'll tackle villages and towns today. Oh boy.
 
Ok, let’s get this out of the way early on: mapping towns, villages, etc is HARD. Most people have a hard time with it, and that’s normal.
This is because while you can be random with natural areas or dungeons, no one will bat an eyelash; but cities and villages are supposed to make a certain amount of sense.
 
Be it village, town, military base, manor or what have you, the point is that people live there, be it permanently or not.
This is the key: these places must have enough facilities to keep the residents going: a way of living (farming, raising animals, trade, craftsmanship jobs, a freaking fort while they’re resting from dismembering monsters to cook the carcasses, you name it).
So there must be residences. They may range from full out castles, to normal houses, to even tents. Even if you don’t have the player enter a single house, there should be at least one or two, to signal that people live there (unless you have a really minimalist game where you only get shops in each location or something).
 
Next, before anything else: what does you player want from this place? Is it simply a rest stop to refill supplies? Is it a plot heavy location? Is it the protagonist’s hometown? How long is the player going to be in the village? Is he going to be returning many times, or never?
 
These all matter a LOT. There is a tremendous difference from a village you place on the map so the hero can rest and leave, from a hub city or town the hero returns to after every big quest.
Make your own life easy: if the player has no real business somewhere except as a rest stop or just a shop upgrade, don’t make it a sprawling monster of a city. Players do not mind having a small village with nothing very much to offer except finding a couple herbs on the closet and going on.
 
Now, if it’s a hub city (a place where you return often) it’s natural to put a lot more detail in there. Still, always, ALWAYS, keep in mind what is necessary. Never make a huge sprawling place just because you think it will be cool. If the player has no business there, a big place to walk around and get lost will only get in his nerves. “All this places and I can only stay the night? This sucks.”
 
 
So, let’s move on, or I’ll enter rant mode forever.
How to actually map these things. In 7 rough steps:
1 - Note down what you NEED gameplay and plot wise. This means shops, plot related buildings or areas, etc.
- Try to come up with the setting of the village. Is it a farming town? Do many people live in it? Do they have to deal with a lot of monsters or war and need an outer wall? Is it technologically or magically advanced?
- Take all you’ve noted down in the previous two steps and place the buildings in the setting. Just what you need and nothing else.
4 - With that done, see if the map will be too big, or too small. Adjust as needed.
5 - With all the core elements in place, start filling the place with buildings that would make sense to have (stores, houses, barns, etc) until you have something less empty (Warning: unless the location is SUPPOSED to be that way, never make it cramped and cluttered looking or hard to navigate).
6 - If you’re happy with your buildings, start working on the extra decoration: stalls, fences, gardens, trees, lampposts, boxes left around, parks, fountains, anything.
7 - Put the people in. This important to get a real feeling of the place. It doesn’t matter if they’re all placeholder sprites. Empty tile maps are deceptive. What to you looks bare now may be too tight a fit with all the npcs.
 
And now you have a town! Now on for some hints.
 
-DO NOT MAKE WHAT YOU WON’T NEED. I cannot stress this enough. Make the locations to suit your needs, never the other way around.
-Houses don’t have to be all the same size and shape. They can have multiple floors, different building materials (be reasonable within the setting of course), etc.
-What sort of floor and material you use for your location speaks volumes. A countryside village will have a grass and dirt ground, with maybe some stone on the important areas. Towns and cities may vary, from stone in the main avenues to grass or dirt in poorer places. The type of tile making the road can be different for different social standings, or even differentiating the “main road” from side roads or residential streets.
-Always think of what the people of the location do when the player is not there. Is it a farming hamlet? A trading port? Unless in times of extreme crisis, people do not just sit around waiting for someone to stop and talk to them. Make your residents DO things. People have jobs, friends! Even if they’re not actively doing anything, they’ll be on standby somewhere that makes sense (a bench, a corner, admiring a statue, taking a nap, ogling women, whatever), not on the middle of the street without any purpose. Don’t leave them standing around just waiting to welcome you to their village.
-Do not get obsessed with size or realism. If you have no use for a city outside a couple shops and an Inn, make the rest inaccessible and invisible (map limit). Put some guards on the road further into the city or make it so the player refuses to go further for whatever reason (like having no freaking business in there).
-The more developed a city is, the less natural spaces (outside parks and expressly made places like that) it will have. The reverse also works, the less developed and populated a village, the more “wild” it will be.
-Not every single town needs a castle where a king lives. In fact, kings are sort of supposed to be ONE per kingdom. You can make lords or nobles, yes, but you can also SKIP the castle quite easily.
-Not every building or house must be accessible. In fact, most people don’t let you into their house uninvited. Feel free to make houses on the outside only, or shops blocked by people at the door, or simply not putting a door anywhere visible (it could be on the laterals or the upper wall that you cannot see. This does not mean you should make buildings that could not possibly have any entrances).
-Be careful of going too far and too big with villages, towns and cities. Buildings take up a lot of space very fast, so if you space them out too much or have too many of them, you may be left with a monstrously large map that you don’t need.
 
 
And that’s it for the tips.!
Now for things you can use in your cities, towns and all that if you’re lost. Of course, be mindful of the setting at all times.
 
-Farming Plots, fences holding animals, work areas.
-Fences or walls around the entire location, part of the location, or even just individual houses.
-Laundry lines, racks or mats with food drying or being prepared, boxes, barrels, chopped wood, etc.
-Lighting sources (torches at night, lampposts)
-Gardens (from individuals or belonging to the town)
-Parks, fountains, memorials, statues. If the town has a particular history, or an hero, or a founder, it’s a good way to add lore without being intrusive.
-Graveyards, churches.
-Shops! Not only the obligatory shops of item/equipment. There are infinite things the player has no use for, but the townspeople might. Even if a vegetable seller does not sell YOU tomatoes, the people who live there need to cook. Street stalls, stores, facilities, city halls, churches.
-If the location is big, it can have streets, rows or ordered houses and buildings. Districts depending on social standing are pretty common and easy to do: the people living rich will usually not want to be near the slums, and the shops may be clustered on the commercial area.
-If you’re mapping a village that’s big but has few houses, rivers, natural ground between residences, patches of trees, etc, can help give it a feeling of being “out there in the country”.
-Elevation. Be it by cliffs in nature, or by cobbled roads and walls on cities, if the location is on a mountain or a hill, chances are it will be built to adapt to it. You can have entire sections of the location on different heights, or even have the location suited to it.
 
 
So with that done, here’s two very minimal examples:
 

The little village has a lot of empty space, and fences with animsl and farming plots, and no visible limits. The houses are smallish and wooden, and well apart form each other, the people loiter around either working or talking.
 

The town is more cramped. There are shops, people on about their purpose, a port, a difference from the main roads the side streets in different floors. There’s a protective wall around it, and even hints of a secret location that maybe we could access if we convince the dude blocking the way to let us through.
 
The point is, despite these two examples being extremely small, you can imagine a few more maps like than making a village or a town when put together.
 
 
And finally, here’s are some very simple questions you can ask yourself if you feel lost when making your location:
 
-Is it large or small?
-Do many people live in it?
-Are they a tight community, or a loose one? Do they have people from many different cultures? Are all the buildings in the same style?
-What’s the weather like? The terrain?
-Where do they get water? Is there a well or a river?
-How’s economy? Are there very rich and very poor people, or are they all roughly the same?
-What’s the main focus of the town? (Farming produce, crafts, services, etc)
-Do they trade with other places? Do they have a port? A market?
-Does the location have any interesting history?
-Any special buildings? Schools, libraries, orphanages, military training grounds, etc?
-Does it have an external wall? A castle or manor?
-Are there soldiers or guards?
-What is the player doing in there? Is what where he/she has to go obvious? Is it hard to find? Hidden?
-Are there any “secrets”? Things to find? Optional quests? Hidden places?
 
 
And with that, you should be able to pull something decent.
Now, mapping execution wise…All I can say is start small. Don’t try to make enormous towns from the get go: they will probably look terrible. Stick to simple and work from there. If you feel your buildings are all the same, change their shape…within reasonable limits. No game of tetris with houses, please.
 
And that’s it! Hope it helps somewhat.
 
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I've always wondered how everyone else makes tall grass/paths/water/other ground auto tiles better than me. Do you have a specific technique or order you do them in to make it look natural? I think I need to work on this.
 

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Couple hours of work. Might use in my game as a secret find or something. Not sure. Fancy though no? :D
Holy stink, where have I been? Well, I started my temporary job this week. So less time to spend on game design... :(
Cartoonier cloud cover that better fits the art style, as well as (slightly) improved blending/fading... fading clouds when there are larger patterns is still somewhat abrupt for some reason.
Do you Find Tilesetting or Looking for Tilesets/Plugins more fun? Personally I like making my tileset for my Game (Cretaceous Park TM) xD
How many parameters is 'too many'??

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