Mass Crowd Mechanics?

[Caustic]

So I've done a few quick searches, and I'm not sure if this is entirely feasible, but here we go...

Later on in my game, I have plans for a city that is supposed to sport a good few million people, and I'd really like to emulate that if possible. Not necessarily "Tokyo at any hour" sized mobs, but certainly enough to where they're mingling, passing each other, bumping around, and such. However... I know that due to software limitations many early games couldn't have tons of sprites on-screen, even in what were supposed to be sprawling cities or lively towns.

I've been thinking, though, is it possible to create that effect , but not necessarily interacting with the MC(s) or prohibiting player movement? And, just maybe, by some miracle, without slowing the computer down to a crawl/crashing the game with anything short of a powerhouse super-server CPU?

And I'm not talking about adding dozens and dozens of event NPCs that bump around and meander back and forth at "random". I mean, an actual crowd, a venerable mob that the player has to navigate and negotiate their way through. Like a packed dance club or a bustling city street in a major city. I'd really like to emulate that feeling of claustrophobia and such for the player, if it's at all possible.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

just spam events maybe? or even just make 1 sprite that has a mob, then use that as the graphic of a single event

 

[EFizzle]

I'd think about using picture overlays to get this effect. Have an animated overlay with your premade crowd dancing and stuff, and then that takes care of the graphical part of having 40-100 "sprites" dancing on screen you just have 2-5 clumps of 3 framed overlays bouncing around. Then for the physicality of it all, you have invisible solid events that are controlled by a move route around under the overlays that will keep the player from mysteriously walking under the crowd. Sure that'll require a script to achieve animated overlays, but it'll save a considerable amount of CPU than piling in 100 events I think. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Caustic]

just spam events maybe? or even just make 1 sprite that has a mob, then use that as the graphic of a single event

Caustic:

..."And I'm not talking about adding dozens and dozens of event NPCs that bump around and meander back and forth at "random". I mean, an actual crowd, a venerable mob that the player has to navigate and negotiate their way through"...

Try again?

@Yonma: Had something similar in mind, but didn't think about the script ( was hoping I wouldn't have to XD ). Still, I might try that.

Granted, it's a long ways off but that just gives me more time to search, learn, and still improvise at the end of the day

Is it possible to add animated GIFs into RPG Maker? That would help immensely, even if image quality takes one for the team.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

you can do that using this... it's the same as using an overlay...

even just make 1 sprite that has a mob, then use that as the graphic of a single event

basically, instead of using overlays and a script to animate it, you'll just utilize 1 event to show and animate the mob for you...

 

[EFizzle]

you can do that using this... it's the same as using an overlay...

basically, instead of using overlays and a script to animate it, you'll just utilize 1 event to show and animate the mob for you...

I personally don't like using large images in events... hence the overlay idea. However, this may actually be the most efficient method for achieving a crowd effect @Caustic

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

It's just an option, I don't personally use super large images in them too... but it's easier that way...

 

[Caustic]

"Easier" doesn't always translate to "best effect" :\ This would really be more of a "form over function" addition to my game, since it would give the player the aesthetic of being in an actual crowd and having to wade through them. Possibly add a few "slowdown" events beforehand (and general *****ery by the cast while in the middle of the "crowd") to really drive home the idea.

Not that doing so via events-only absolutely won't work, since I haven't tried as much yet, but overlays seem to be a more consistent solution that would be more easily manipulable, as opposed to having to line up each event beforehand and THEN draw over with the sprites and such (at least that's how I'm seeing it being done). If they could be animated, even better.

EDIT: Forgot to finish my idea. DERP!

Besides, I would think there might be a problem with the player "popping out" of the crowd - ie- they phase through without actually looking like they passed into the crowd, just materializing on the other side (after disappearing for a moment due to overlay). Then again, I haven't really tested out yet, and this might be bypassable via several stacked events. Would be worth experimenting, since it's not something I can say I've ever really seen in any RPG, let alone a JRPG (where " 'large' city == NPC population > 20 ". oh my!).

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

It all depends on how you set up the picture itself... if it has transparencies, the player will still be shown when he passes thru those parts


if you need total layer control, then you'd need to use pictures for each one of the crowd...


and either way, as Yonma said, you'd need to put placeholder events to block movement on some parts too...

 

[hian]

Easiest way is to use parallax mapping.

I'm using an excellent script for parallaxing that supports multiple pictures that switch to create animation.

Just put the NPCs that won't be walking directly in the picture of the map, and make additional copies if you want to add animations like stepping, rotation, or balloons.

Then put invisible non-passable tiles over the characters in the editor. Add a few events that are actually moving to make the scene more alive, and presdo - you're done.

Another great thing about parallaxing.

 

[wallacethepig]

Separate the town into 17x13 or so chunks, then put 10 or so NPCs walking around per city chunk (block?)

-Wallace

 

[Andar]

both options for crowds (picture overlay and multiple-NPC-events) have advantages and disadvantages - you might have to experiment with both to find the best option for your game.


large crowd-events have the option to allow a group of NPCs to actually travel on the map. You need to make sure that the player doesn't step into the event's area (there is a script that enlarges the collision area without needing additional events), but then you can have the town behave dynamically by controlling the move routes for the events.


overlay pictures are better for large, stationary masses of people - animation is a bit more tricky with overlay pictures and you can't move larger overlays around city blocks when the player moves, but if those people are more dispersed (and especially if you make two overlays, with body parts on a lower Z than the player and heads on a higher Z), then you can give the player the illusion of the player moving through a mass of people (especially when turning down player speed by move command while in the area), without needing much in the way of events.

 

[Caustic]

@hian: Parallaxin' can kindly frak right o--

*cough*

Sorry, got something stuck in my throat there for a second. 

But no-- from what I can scrounge up about the subject, it likely wouldn't look any better than the other two methods mentioned. Namely because if I did try to pretty it up, that would only serve to make it look out of place comparative to the rest of the game. And require actual artistic ability. So, no.

@wallice: I'll have to defer you to the same line in my OP that I deferred Engr. to about me not wanting to simply drop a bunch of sprite events onto the map and have them meander. That's exactly the set-up I'm trying to avoid. The effect just doesn't work for me; I want a mass, a living thing that the player will have to deal with. Not just a bunch of NPCs dropped onto a small square of the whole map and set to move at "random". That just ends up looking like a town square of amnesiacs IMO

@Andar: Most likely. I figured there was going to be some experimentation involved. But again, it won't be implemented for a while (if I ever get to it), so there should be time to experiment to see what works :3 Heck, it could end up being tutorial material if things work out right. I honestly haven't seen crowd events in RPGs... ever, as far as I can remember, and I've played quite a few from both the old and new schools.

I might end up using both methods; have a "static" crowd picture background (think along the lines of a high school with "ocean waves" in the background), along with some event-sprites set to walk around some paths within the "crowd", possibly blurting something if they bump into the merry band of morons hero(ine). If I can figure out how to do that with minimal scripting (probably not possible, or at least functionally impractical) that'd be great.

Obviously, the hardest part will be figuring out the best amount of motion that'll make it look convincing without giving the player motion sickness. XD

 

[hian]

I think you'd do well to read up on parallaxing again.

Parallaxing does not require artistic ability of any kind what so ever unless you decide to go beyond rtp graphics. And even if you did, it wouldn't really change the process at all.

Secondly, as I said, it is positively the best way of avoiding lag, since you can have as many characters on screen as you want without using a single event.

You can even animate them if you have the right script.

The only drawback is that they won't be moving around on the grid, but you can compensate by adding events. One $character has room for 4 regular characters, so there's a lot you can do on top of the parallax to make it look alive.

You speak of using overlay pictures and it's essentially the exact same thing. The only issue with pictures is that it's a nightmare to coordinate and handle.

You wanna do it another way - great.

But if you're going to dismiss an advice do it based on an accurate understanding of what it entails.

I don't know where you learned about parallaxing, but as a person who actually does, I can tell you you're worries are completely unjustified.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I think he needs it animated... if not then parallaxing for unwalkable crowd would be fine...

 

[Caustic]

@hian: As I've stated already in my last post - and as Engr reiterated in the last post - I'd like I need there to be motion to it in some form. Either actual movement or the simulation there-of.

So, considering that parallax works with static images only, no, it still won't work for this. 

Thanks for the responses, this can be locked now. Thank you <3

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

there are scripts for animated parallax

 

[Caustic]

there are scripts for animated parallax

The fewer scripts I can get away with, the happier I'll be. Already have like twelve pasted in the mats area and I haven't even finished making the first dungeon XD

I don't see it being worth the trouble for only an occasional usage (maybe even just one-time), though that's not to say I wouldn't consider it for some future project, or if the hybrid "events-and-picture" method doesn't work out as planned.