Mature discussion warning; Should animal who attacks person be put down?

[Benny Jackdaw]

I think that is the biggest problem surrounding the human race. No one respects animals or nature anymore. Either it's like you mentioned, or it's people who only "care about the environment" if they got to kill and Slaughter thousands of animals. Bats dying off due to a fungal disease? Don't care! Corporations destroying habitats? Don't care! Yearly Festival where people sacrifice thousands of a random animal purely out of tradition? Don't care! Animal "overpopulated," usually due to our own f*** ups? Durr, let's go save the environment durr!

To make matters worse, these people act like hunting is the be-all end-all of animal saviorism, demonizing just about everything else. They use seductive tactics to make real animal lovers feel like s***, and most of the time they are contributing to the problem. We started legally trophy hunting Rhinos to raise money that was supposed to help them? Since we started this, many species of rhino have gone extinct. And wild bunnies are a huge problem in Australia, remember that a lot of nuisance animals exist because some dumbass put them there, and some animals overpopulated often times because we hunt their top Predator to near Extinction.

There are certain cases we're putting an animal down for killing a human is either right or wrong, but when it comes to hunting, the hunter were about to kill that animal for any given reason. If the animal were to kill you, then that was the risk you yourself took.

 

[BlueWulf]

The real problem, as with many things these days, it's that everyone thinks they're experts in everything. Many of arguments of this kind ends up almost always being very biased because some supposed "expert" gave his "cultured" opinion on the matter. People often don't waste too much time thinking on how to treat "dangerous" predators and forget that other "harmless" aren't what it's shown in "Bambi".

My father and grandfather are both hunters and while i don't like it i still learned from them enough to not fall into the pitfall of common sense. Where i life wild animals are kind of a problem since their populations is off the chart, with wild boars ruining farms and deer causing accidents by crossing roads and crashing into cars. Meanwhile animal rights people still scream bloody murder everytime hunting season opens, even though it would help cut off their numbers, but my favourite are the idiots that think that since the reason there are so many of them is because there are no longer predators to hunt them, then the solution is to bring them back, as if a wolf would go after a deer when he can find a bunch of caged farm animals that require much less effort.

My point being that before talking about whether or not animals need to be put down, people maybe need to first get their facts straight.

 

[Philosophus Vagus]

... but my favourite are the idiots that think that since the reason there are so many of them is because there are no longer predators to hunt them, then the solution is to bring them back, as if a wolf would go after a deer when he can find a bunch of caged farm animals that require much less effort.

That government job tracking for conservation purposes I talked about earlier originated because of exactly this. Wolves were brought in and protected because the theory was they'd cut down on deer (who cannot be culled to a reasonable level through hunting do to environmentalist concerns as it is), but no matter how many times they are relocated to "protected zones" they tend to always find their way back to the farmlands...where they tend to be shot by farmers. It creates a nice, cushy side job for me to get paid for partaking in my actual hobbies but man is it a fruitless endeavor in the end.

People don't like to remember the past for some reason, it's easier to just condemn our ancestors as bloodthirsty fools than to consider precisely why things got as bad as they have and then we act completely shocked when our further intervention reintroduces the very problems that caused those actions in the first place.

 

[BlueWulf]

@Philosophus Vagus ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Basically it proves the less one knows about something the more they overestimate their knowledge in that field. This is what is going on in these arguments, too many people with too little knowledge making pressure to put in action plans that they thing will work, while the true experts are still working to find an actually feasible solution.

 

[Countyoungblood]

@Philosophus Vagus ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Basically it proves the less one knows about something the more they overestimate their knowledge in that field. This is what is going on in these arguments, too many people with too little knowledge making pressure to put in action plans that they thing will work, while the true experts are still working to find an actually feasible solution.

Unskilled and unaware. can I like your post again?

edit: actually lets try to expand my earlier point.

before you reach the problem you're all debating you might consider the animals that we kill without any type of provocation and try to distinguish which should be killed.

first try to shed yourself of feelings for domesticated animals since humans picked and adapted these animals to be pleasing and suitable for our attention.. wolves pack mentality works out well in developing a loyal attentive dog.

then, look at the animals you dont mind having killed for you so you can have bacon or kfc or steak. ever had veal? thats baby sheep kept in a small box to keep it tender.. chicken nuggets? live baby chicks ground up feathers beak and all. besides being gross its very much cruel but we accept it since other people do. try to break away from that herd mentality and ask yourself if you could decapitate a chicken and bring it inside to eat.

so, easy question for you.

which animals deserve to die and which animals deserve to live?

solve that first then go back to working on when its ok to kill the animals that we didnt kill in round 1. you dont need to be an expert to discern these kinds of discrepancies .

 

[Benny Jackdaw]

The real problem, as with many things these days, it's that everyone thinks they're experts in everything. Many of arguments of this kind ends up almost always being very biased because some supposed "expert" gave his "cultured" opinion on the matter. People often don't waste too much time thinking on how to treat "dangerous" predators and forget that other "harmless" aren't what it's shown in "Bambi".

My father and grandfather are both hunters and while i don't like it i still learned from them enough to not fall into the pitfall of common sense. Where i life wild animals are kind of a problem since their populations is off the chart, with wild boars ruining farms and deer causing accidents by crossing roads and crashing into cars. Meanwhile animal rights people still scream bloody murder everytime hunting season opens, even though it would help cut off their numbers, but my favourite are the idiots that think that since the reason there are so many of them is because there are no longer predators to hunt them, then the solution is to bring them back, as if a wolf would go after a deer when he can find a bunch of caged farm animals that require much less effort.

My point being that before talking about whether or not animals need to be put down, people maybe need to first get their facts straight.

Let me guess, one of those huntaboos who only "cares about animals" if you get to kill them, then blame real animal lovers for every environmental problem, just like I mentioned, right? So, should we just wipe wolves back into extinction, then by prrtending they our pure nuisance animals who did nothing to help? What about deer? Do they deserve to go extinct, too just because your biased right-wing fueled anti-environmental psuedo-science said so? When is an animal not just a nuisance or a tool? When is it the HUNTERS fault things get ****ed up instead of those who truly care about animals?

 

[BlueWulf]

@Benny Jackdaw Buddy, not to sound offensive but did you to hit your head lately? Because you just sounded like a ******, and i mean that as in heavy brain damage kind of ******. First off, i said i don't like hunting as a sport so i don't get where you took your huntaboos crap from. Second, i just said that people act out without knowing the full consequences of those actions, never i mentioned anything about hunting to extinction animal because i'm blind to the real problem. Third, don't ever call me a right-wing, because those are the farthest from the kind of people i want to be. Fourth, if you weren't blind on top of suffering from brain damage, you might have noticed how my nickname is based on wolves, which happen to be my favourite animals by the way, so claiming i think they're just nuisances is pretty far from the truth.

Finally, if you tried to get the point of my posts instead of searching for clues to build up your own environmentalist crusade, you might have deduce that my gripe isn't with this argument but with how people solve it. We're in a bad spot because we changed the ecosystem so much that simply putting back in the missing factors won't cut it, that's not how biology work. What we need is find out how to build a new balance in which we can fit and to cut off any future retort, erasing the animals isn't a balance, it's called ecological suicide.

Unfortunately with people like you around i'm afraid our chances of actually succeeding are fairly low.

Still hope you'll have a good evening, perhaps a good rest might heal that head of yours.

 

[Countyoungblood]

Hmm. My logical reasoning renders me invisible here. Im going to steal all of your wallets.

Vegitarian rollcall? Any vegetarians in this animal cruelty debate?

 

[BlueWulf]

@Countyoungblood Sorry, hope i didn't steal your thunder with the little drama show above, while not vegetarian i mostly eat just chicken meat because any other animals make me uncomfortable, does that help your argument?

 

[Countyoungblood]

@Countyoungblood Sorry, hope i didn't steal your thunder with the little drama show above, while not vegetarian i mostly eat just chicken meat because any other animals make me uncomfortable, does that help your argument?

Oh no worries wasnt much thunder to be had. Im not a vegetarian its just funny how selective people are about animal rights. This is how discussions like this pretty much go here. I think most of the people who know better also cant be bothered to argue in this kind of mixed bag. I myself cant resist fishing for those on the brink of a personal philosophical breakthrough but i think thats why youre here too. Maybe we will both get tired and join those who just watch the show..

 

[Benny Jackdaw]

@Benny Jackdaw Buddy, not to sound offensive but did you to hit your head lately? Because you just sounded like a ******, and i mean that as in heavy brain damage kind of ******. First off, i said i don't like hunting as a sport so i don't get where you took your huntaboos crap from. Second, i just said that people act out without knowing the full consequences of those actions, never i mentioned anything about hunting to extinction animal because i'm blind to the real problem. Third, don't ever call me a right-wing, because those are the farthest from the kind of people i want to be. Fourth, if you weren't blind on top of suffering from brain damage, you might have noticed how my nickname is based on wolves, which happen to be my favourite animals by the way, so claiming i think they're just nuisances is pretty far from the truth.

Finally, if you tried to get the point of my posts instead of searching for clues to build up your own environmentalist crusade, you might have deduce that my gripe isn't with this argument but with how people solve it. We're in a bad spot because we changed the ecosystem so much that simply putting back in the missing factors won't cut it, that's not how biology work. What we need is find out how to build a new balance in which we can fit and to cut off any future retort, erasing the animals isn't a balance, it's called ecological suicide.

Unfortunately with people like you around i'm afraid our chances of actually succeeding are fairly low.

Still hope you'll have a good evening, perhaps a good rest might heal that head of yours.

Shut the **** up.

You mean how people are trying to solve environmental problems by NOT slaughtering thousands and thousands of animals? And the fact that you said you don't like hunting means nothing. A lot of people like you what use comments like that to hide the fact you don't give two f**** about animals or the environment. Just look at FelIsTipsy and Sulfide. They claim to like animals, and even have a sand cat and a hyena as their fursona / online mascot respectively, and I have never met a person who cared about the lives of animals as little as these two people do.

Also, am I supposed to take you seriously as a human being when you use words like ****** and brain damage to insult someone (also go-to seductive insults of huntaboos to persuade people to their side.)? I'm just saying a lot of people like you pretend they care about animals when they actually hate animals and the environment. That is how you are coming off anyway.

 

[Countyoungblood]

You mean how people are trying to solve environmental problems by NOT slaughtering thousands and thousands of animals? And the fact that you said you don't like hunting means nothing. A lot of people like you what use comments like that to hide the fact you don't give two f**** about animals or the environment. Just look at FelIsTipsy and Sulfide. They claim to like animals, and even have a sand cat and a hyena as their fursona / online mascot respectively, and I have never met a person who cared about the lives of animals as little as these two people do.

Also, am I supposed to take you seriously as a human being when you use words like ****** and brain damage to insult someone (also go-to seductive insults of huntaboos to persuade people to their side.)? I'm just saying a lot of people like you pretend they care about animals when they actually hate animals and the environment. That is how you are coming off anyway.

Under my logic cloak i steal your wallet

Its empty...

I return your wallet.

If you argue with insults and distractions people will think its because your logic and facts are bad...

I steal your socks.

 

[BlueWulf]

@Benny Jackdaw It's just that i find hard to believe a fully functional human being can fall down to you level. I don't particularly care what you believe, this is the internet, for all i know you could be the one playing a role, everyone could be anyone on the internet, i could be a Russian old man who kill seal puppies for fun and you wouldn't have any way to know.

I tired my best to expose my point but it's clearly wasted breath, so instead of wasting anymore of my precious time, lease go bother someone else, hopefully you'll get the attention of a moderator.

 

[Benny Jackdaw]

@Benny Jackdaw It's just that i find hard to believe a fully functional human being can fall down to you level. I don't particularly care what you believe, this is the internet, for all i know you could be the one playing a role, everyone could be anyone on the internet, i could be a Russian old man who kill seal puppies for fun and you wouldn't have any way to know.

I tired my best to expose my point but it's clearly wasted breath, so instead of wasting anymore of my precious time, lease go bother someone else, hopefully you'll get the attention of a moderator.

You know what, I'll give you a chance yes. Explain yourself without stooping to the level of using words like ****** and explain when it's right and when it's not right to kill animals. Because last time I checked, scientists didn't decide wolves were useless for the environment. The only actual people I've seen call wolves a non-essential nuisance animal are Hunters.

 

[Countyoungblood]

You know what, I'll give you a chance yes. Explain yourself without stooping to the level of using words like ****** and explain when it's right and when it's not right to kill animals. Because last time I checked, scientists didn't decide wolves were useless for the environment. The only actual people I've seen call wolves a non-essential nuisance animal are Hunters.

As a scientist im compelled to express that wolves are useless for making any relevant point in this argument concidering the scope.

I steal your shoes.. scientifically.

 

[_Shadow_]

@BlueWulf @Benny Jackdaw

I think it is time to calm down and stop everyone throwing mud to each others face. Please respect each other.

 

[gstv87]

Or if the homeowner keeps a beware of dog sign but doesn't leash the dog and a kid on a four wheeler comes tearing through the yard and gets yanked off and mauled (this happened to a neighbor of mine, the kid survived but the dog was put down) is it right?

yes.
because animals CAN differentiate between kid and adult, and between random strolling and hostile intent.
ESPECIALLY predators like dogs.... they must be able to tell, because they themselves behave the same way: when they mean hostile intent, they show it.
dogs can keep track of a number of threats at any given moment, which means, if the kid just randomly entered the dog's domain without notice, that the dog wasn't paying attention to that particular kid (which wasn't a threat), or, was, but chose to attack anyways (which means forsaking their training, if any).
either way, a guard dog (a trained dog) shouldn't be aggressive all the time, because if they're aggressive to strangers that are not a threat, they'd be aggressive to anyone who is not a threat, which defeats the purpose of being a guard dog, turning the dog itself into a menace to the intended protect-ee/s.

that, on one hand, and on the other, it should have been up to the police to establish if that attack happened as a result of misguided training by part of the owner or pet trainer, and if there could have been mistreatment done to the dog forcing it to be permanently hostile to anyone.
once THAT had been established, THEN charge the owner or the responsible part, for both the attack and the killing of the dog.

if you simply kill the dog and replace it with another one without training, and under the care of the same owner, chances are, the behavior of the owner would affect that of the new dog in the same way, and you'd still have a dangerous dog around, waiting for a new victim.

 

[Philosophus Vagus]

@Benny Jackdaw You realize that literally no one here has said anything about mass animal genocide being a solution for anything...except for you, right? Perhaps BlueWulf's hostilities stem from your random and unfounded pontificating ramblings about the motivations of someone you don't even know even when his previous statements contradict them:

My father and grandfather are both hunters and while i don't like it i still learned from them enough to not fall into the pitfall of common sense.

Let me guess, one of those huntaboos who only "cares about animals" if you get to kill them, then blame real animal lovers for every environmental problem, just like I mentioned, right?

No one has blamed you for anything so far other than being irrational. The true irony in your presumption is that right before you swung in here and started attacking beliefs that you assigned to the people you attacked yourself is that the discussion at that point was about people speaking based on their emotions and presumptions, rather than in facts and reality. You've pulled the same exact sheep with me on multiple occasions now, and it gets old fast. You seem to wrap everyone you disagree with up into this dark bloodthirsty 'hunter' pall. You say **** like:

Do they deserve to go extinct, too just because your biased right-wing fueled anti-environmental psuedo-science said so?

Shut the fudge up.
... And the fact that you said you don't like hunting means nothing. A lot of people like you what use comments like that to hide the fact you don't give two f**** about animals or the environment...

Also, am I supposed to take you seriously as a human being when you use words like ****** and brain damage to insult someone (also go-to seductive insults of huntaboos to persuade people to their side.)? I'm just saying a lot of people like you pretend they care about animals when they actually hate animals and the environment. That is how you are coming off anyway.

and then you become incensed when all this baseless assumption and borderline slander out of nowhere causes the "huntaboo" you think you are attacking to question your mental state? As blunt as it might have been, he isn't the only one wondering at that right now. The fact that you dismiss even people who don't even hunt as 'huntaboos' and admonish them to "shut the **** up" makes me wonder how you think you know so much about how hunters think in the first place. I grew up around hunters, I have friends that are hunters, I'm a redneck from the ass end of nowhere and damn proud of that heritage. No one I have ever met has been half as insane as you presume hunters to collectively be, I'm in Alabama right in the middle of "right-wing" central (from an American definition, anyway) and your disingenuous demonizing blather doesn't serve any purpose but prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are hunters who are absolute dicks, I'll not deny that. I used to work for this rich prick who went on "helicopter safaris" where he'd gun down elk with his AR and smart scope from the skies. Hunters can also be environmentalists, however. You ever see a deer aspirating blood because some prick camper left a half-eaten pack of hamburger buns behind before? I can't tell you how many hunters and backpackers come out of the woods with trash bags full of other people's trash on a regular basis. 90% of the trash I bring out of the woods with me every time I roam is not mine. I've cleaned up after "environmentalists" after they've finished screaming in my face about what a horrible person I am (and I'm no hunter these days either) then left campsites littered with trash before. I don't believe that all environmentalists are like that (I work with a lot of them on a semi-regular basis for gods sake) but I know from personal experience that some are, just as I know from personal experience that others aren't. I get the sense that your ire comes not from personal experience but from the dark depths of the internet.

You'd think you could at least agree that our feel good bureaucratic approach to environmentalism isn't working by any measure. We move animals around because they don't have enough space left in our industrial spiels and because our animal husbandry practices provide better targets for a hungry predator than a bounding deer. We protect the deer when they are so overpopulated that they're constantly dying horribly in car accidents and asphyxiation because temporal convenience is more important for people than using more fixed utensils. People like you preach from the safety of your keyboard utilizing electricity and the fruits of a first world civilization to keep yourself safe from the harsh realities of the natural order about how those who are actually out there in that order seeing the realities of your idealism are the problem just because we tell you the failings of that idealism.

A lot of the people you hate aren't the monsters you presume them to be, Jackdaw. A lot of the worst of these issues isn't even at our feet but at that of the majority who subsist in a world where they don't have to deal with the harsh realities of life personally because industrialism allows them to be blind to their own consumption while condemning others.

I think @Countyoungblood's point should be addressed here and even expanded. Even if you are a complete vegan you are likely benefiting from animal death. Ever used toothpaste before, or used plastic anything? Do you own a car or a bike with wheels or own anything else that uses leather components in it? You like brown sugar, shampoo, soaps and conditioners? Do you use anything that utilizes electricity in our over-connected world where "green energy" isn't capable at current technology to provide even 20% of our consumption demands? If the answer to any of these questions is yes than congratulations, you are the beneficiary of the byproduct from the death of an innocent animal and have metaphorical blood on your hands as a result.

Just because someone knows enough to know what doesn't work, doesn't mean they don't care, or that they aren't worried about the direction we are heading as the tech boom continues forward. These issues are bigger than just animal deaths in a general sense (and I'm sorry for derailing) to the point where it really makes morality moot to the issue. What was it Countyoungblood said? Something about "not splitting hairs when we kill what and when we want regardless?" Now I'm not as above hair splitting as he is, despite my sympathy for hunters and respect for the violent nature of mother nature I'm actually a bit of a bleeding heart whenever she (and more often civilization) allows me to be but there is a lot of truth to that statement regardless of what any of us might want.

You can think what you want at the end of the day though. If you actually want to discuss you can, if you just want to tell me to **** off too then I'm done acknowledging anything you have to say in the future. I hope you get some help man, no one should live in the world of absolute, arbitrary evil that you seem to see all around you. Technological interconnection can be a hell of a drug if overindulged upon.

Sorry @Dreadshadow for continuing this after your admonition against it but I was halfway through when you chimed in and this has been a long time coming in topics outside of this one.

 

[Kupotepo]

I try to be lessen my bias as possible because I dislike us vs. them mentality.

I think sometimes we agree with each other, but we have miscommunication.

In order to discuss this topic without a fight, we should understand different between legal law and natural law.
relative morality and absolute morality
Next, let's classify the word 'animal into different categories.
A common pet[ like dog and cat] and an uncommon pet[like poison sneak, tiger]

Wild animal and domestic animal

Common meat animal and uncommon meat animal[ horse, shark fin]

Next ,some people here talk about hunting an 'animal '
endangered animal vs. overpopulated animal

Which is the purpose of hunting?
For food, decoration, furniture, fun in the end gains.

Next, natural reaction, reaction based on fear, and hindsight bias.

Now put yourself on the situation if you are attack by a wild animal like a bear, a tiger or a lion, what would you do during the situation?
Now put yourself on the wild animal perspective?
Now put yourself on a tree perspective?

Do you see we technically can view from different angles and contexts. The information will make us jump to different conclusion.

People will have different reaction based on the choices.

 

[Benny Jackdaw]

@Benny Jackdaw You realize that literally no one here has said anything about mass animal genocide being a solution for anything...except for you, right? Perhaps BlueWulf's hostilities stem from your random and unfounded pontificating ramblings about the motivations of someone you don't even know even when his previous statements contradict them:




No one has blamed you for anything so far other than being irrational. The true irony in your presumption is that right before you swung in here and started attacking beliefs that you assigned to the people you attacked yourself is that the discussion at that point was about people speaking based on their emotions and presumptions, rather than in facts and reality. You've pulled the same exact sheep with me on multiple occasions now, and it gets old fast. You seem to wrap everyone you disagree with up into this dark bloodthirsty 'hunter' pall. You say sheep like:



and then you become incensed when all this baseless assumption and borderline slander out of nowhere causes the "huntaboo" you think you are attacking to question your mental state? As blunt as it might have been, he isn't the only one wondering at that right now. The fact that you dismiss even people who don't even hunt as 'huntaboos' and admonish them to "shut the fudge up" makes me wonder how you think you know so much about how hunters think in the first place. I grew up around hunters, I have friends that are hunters, I'm a redneck from the ass end of nowhere and dayum proud of that heritage. No one I have ever met has been half as insane as you presume hunters to collectively be, I'm in Alabama right in the middle of "right-wing" central (from an American definition, anyway) and your disingenuous demonizing blather doesn't serve any purpose but prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are hunters who are absolute dicks, I'll not deny that. I used to work for this rich prick who went on "helicopter safaris" where he'd gun down elk with his AR and smart scope from the skies. Hunters can also be environmentalists, however. You ever see a deer aspirating blood because some prick camper left a half-eaten pack of hamburger buns behind before? I can't tell you how many hunters and backpackers come out of the woods with trash bags full of other people's trash on a regular basis. 90% of the trash I bring out of the woods with me every time I roam is not mine. I've cleaned up after "environmentalists" after they've finished screaming in my face about what a horrible person I am (and I'm no hunter these days either) then left campsites littered with trash before. I don't believe that all environmentalists are like that (I work with a lot of them on a semi-regular basis for gods sake) but I know from personal experience that some are, just as I know from personal experience that others aren't. I get the sense that your ire comes not from personal experience but from the dark depths of the internet.

You'd think you could at least agree that our feel good bureaucratic approach to environmentalism isn't working by any measure. We move animals around because they don't have enough space left in our industrial spiels and because our animal husbandry practices provide better targets for a hungry predator than a bounding deer. We protect the deer when they are so overpopulated that they're constantly dying horribly in car accidents and asphyxiation because temporal convenience is more important for people than using more fixed utensils. People like you preach from the safety of your keyboard utilizing electricity and the fruits of a first world civilization to keep yourself safe from the harsh realities of the natural order about how those who are actually out there in that order seeing the realities of your idealism are the problem just because we tell you the failings of that idealism.

A lot of the people you hate aren't the monsters you presume them to be, Jackdaw. A lot of the worst of these issues isn't even at our feet but at that of the majority who subsist in a world where they don't have to deal with the harsh realities of life personally because industrialism allows them to be blind to their own consumption while condemning others.

I think @Countyoungblood's point should be addressed here and even expanded. Even if you are a complete vegan you are likely benefiting from animal death. Ever used toothpaste before, or used plastic anything? Do you own a car or a bike with wheels or own anything else that uses leather components in it? You like brown sugar, shampoo, soaps and conditioners? Do you use anything that utilizes electricity in our over-connected world where "green energy" isn't capable at current technology to provide even 20% of our consumption demands? If the answer to any of these questions is yes than congratulations, you are the beneficiary of the byproduct from the death of an innocent animal and have metaphorical blood on your hands as a result.

Just because someone knows enough to know what doesn't work, doesn't mean they don't care, or that they aren't worried about the direction we are heading as the tech boom continues forward. These issues are bigger than just animal deaths in a general sense (and I'm sorry for derailing) to the point where it really makes morality moot to the issue. What was it Countyoungblood said? Something about "not splitting hairs when we kill what and when we want regardless?" Now I'm not as above hair splitting as he is, despite my sympathy for hunters and respect for the violent nature of mother nature I'm actually a bit of a bleeding heart whenever she (and more often civilization) allows me to be but there is a lot of truth to that statement regardless of what any of us might want.

You can think what you want at the end of the day though. If you actually want to discuss you can, if you just want to tell me to fudge off too then I'm done acknowledging anything you have to say in the future. I hope you get some help man, no one should live in the world of absolute, arbitrary evil that you seem to see all around you. Technological interconnection can be a hell of a drug if overindulged upon.

Sorry @Dreadshadow for continuing this after your admonition against it but I was halfway through when you chimed in and this has been a long time coming in topics outside of this one.

Do you want to know why I hate hunting so much? Because hunting is all we've become. Because people shove hunting down people's throats. Because people treat it as the absolute only thing that helps animals. Because people feel the need to demonize every last thing people who care about animals outside those oh-so misunderstood do. Because people feel the need to romanticize hunting as if it's this perfect, flawless, be all end all of animal saviorism. This has gotten to the point where there is virtually nothing left, where this is the only way people are willing to "help the environment." But ignore all the other awful s*** that happens to animals unless it's being caused by environmentalists. Let's forget about white nose syndrome or habitat loss or global warming or the corporations or any of that. None of that is bad, but anything an environmentalist does is a huge Pariah to the planet. The only way to save the environment anymore is to kill everything that isn't human. that is how badly hunting is being shoved down my throat.

Even if that wasn't the point you were trying to make, and I know it wasn't, this is how badly hunting has been embellished. Humans have reached the point where they no longer care about other species, we're almost everything we do is for the convenience of the human race. There are potentially other ways to help the environment, but for most people, they're not convenient. Even when I try to look Beyond hunting, people insist on shoving it down my throat. Truth is, I don't f****** care. I've heard all of it and I'm sick of hearing it. I literally hate hunting and I always will.

So I'm sorry if I go off the handle whenever anyone brings up hunting, but when I see you talk about how animals need to be hunted but never go into why animals shouldn't be killed or when we should keep them alive, it reminds me of people who do just as I've described. They only talk about saving animals when you get to kill them. They constantly defend practices that kill animals unless done by environmentalists which they love to demonize, they have nothing against cruel meat practices or cruel hunting practices, but will demonize veganism and energy conservation and other things. They always promote hunting, but they never talk about expansionism or deadly viruses that are wiping out animal populations or anything like that. They will deny any time hunting has failed to benefit animals in any way, and will usually blame failures purely on porcher's even when legal hunting is just as much to blame. They will deny humans are causing any problems, zooming in on animals as parasites. And a lot of these people put the lives of serial killers above endangered species. humans me go through a lot of different things, but it'll be millenniums before we suffer Extinction, and that's why I tend to care about animals more than people, but according to the people that makes me a horrible human being.

So when I go on those tangents, it's because I've basically lost faith. I've lost faith in the human race, I've lost faith in the survival of any random animal. I have lost faith in this planet as a whole. I try to look Beyond hunting to see maybe it's not that bad, but then I keep getting reminded that maybe it is that bad, and if all there is to environmentalism anymore is hunting, then...

... then I have no reason to respect my own species. If all we know is to kill, then we are no better then lions or hippos.