Mature discussion warning; Should dogs be cropped and docked?

Discussion in 'General Lounge' started by Tuomo L, Aug 26, 2018.

?

Are you against docking and / or cropping?

  1. I support both

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. I support docking

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  3. I support cropping

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No, I don't like either!

    11 vote(s)
    91.7%
  1. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    Let us be civil in this topic please. I am aware that people may feel very strongly about this subject but this is a discussion I think we should really have more often, not just here but in general. This practise is actually illegal where I live in and most of Europe but it's actually extremely common in USA and Canada where 130,000 puppies have their ears cropped each year. However, this topic is NOT a political in nature and I'd rather that kept away from this discussion if possible. Instead, I really want to bring more awareness to this and to ask;

    Do you think cropping a dogs ears and / or docking their tail is okay or are you against it?


    Natural Doberman

    [​IMG]

    Docked and Cropped Doberman

    [​IMG]

    Why or why not?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
    #1
  2. Poryg

    Poryg Dark Lord of the Castle of Javascreeps Veteran

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    I don't like it for one simple purpose: If someone wants to chamge their own body, so be it. But forcing change upon someone like that, no.
     
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  3. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    I changed the pictures to bigger resolution Creative Commons pictures supplied by Wikimedia.
     
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  4. LTN Games

    LTN Games Veteran Veteran

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    As poryg says it's wrong because of forced nature of it. A simple rule I follow weather or not legality says it's ok, that rule is "do no harm" and if it's something I would not want done to me than it's only right to not do it to someone else.
     
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  5. Faherya

    Faherya The Knight of the Sad Figure Veteran

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    This practice began centuries ago when dogs were used in battles and more usually on hunts. The idea was to reduce the likelihood of the animal being injured, as both the tail and the ears are prone to large bleeds.

    However, these members grew up for some reason. Nowadays there is no advantage in this surgeries, fortunately, these animals no longer face the battles of before. The cut was made for utility, it became fashionable and it turned into a pattern. I totally disagree with him, the little toes of my foot always cause me problems with the corners of furniture. I'm not going to rip them off.
     
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  6. Jesse - PVGames

    Jesse - PVGames Game and Graphics Developer Veteran

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    My personal take on this is thus: If there is a medical reason for to necessitate it (chronic ear infections that could be prevented by cropping, constant tail bone breakage, etc), and is recommended by a veterinarian, then I think it is fine. Beyond that rather limited and specific scope though, I don't really approve of it as it is basically mutilating an animal for no good reason, an animal that does not get a say in the matter as to what happens to their own body. It's easy sometimes for people to forget that dogs, cats, etc, are all living creatures, not our personal playthings. When we take one home with us, we must accept that we are now taking into our care a living being and we should really respect and honor that.
     
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  7. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I thought it was a cruel practice. When we got a boxer/pitt bull mix we chose to have neither done. In hindsight, we regretted not getting his tail docked and I would do it again.

    Boxers’ tails are incredibly strong and painful. When he got excited - which was always - his tail wagging was like a whip. It was very painful to our shins and our youngest daughter got the worst of it. She was born after we got him and growing up went through a long period where she was face level with his tail.

    But aside from pain for us, I researched too late that boxers are prone to tail injuries. Thankfully we never had to deal with the breaks they can get, but we did have to deal with difficult injuries in the form of open wounds.It is impossible to keep a bandage on an open wound on a dog’s tail. And when it was bleeding and he wagged it, blood would go everywhere.

    So, my viewpoint now is that I would research first and find out WHY it is common practice for the breed I’m getting and if perhaps there is good reasoning - such as tail injuries.
     
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  8. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    This is exactly the kind of a post I was hoping to receive, thank you very much Mlogan from your story. I'm glad your dog never received any major injury.
     
    #8
  9. Philosophus Vagus

    Philosophus Vagus The drunken bird dog of rpg maker Veteran

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    Cropping no, because it's purely aesthetic, docking I'm okay with as long as it's not done purely for aesthetic purposes. Mlogan brings up a good point with breeds that have powerful tails that can self-injure, but beyond that there are reasons why working dogs should have their tails docked.

    Take your doberman example for instance, what job does a dobermann pincher generally hold in the dog workforce? They're one of the most popular breeds to have as guard dogs due to their tenacious and territorial nature combined with an impressive sprinting speed, endurance and their generally above average intellect. Now look at your two dobermann pics and tell me which one looks the most intimidating. That's a slight acknowledgement to why the breed is cropped, I understand it but making the dog more intimidating is still purely aesthetic and I'm still against that (plus I'm kind of a sucker for floppy-eared dogs), but can acknowledge that I understand to underlying logic to doing so in some cases.

    The purpose of docking the tail however, should be obvious in light of the dog's career. As a guard dog or hunting dog a long tail can be a liability that trespassers/prey can latch onto when cornered and use to control and hurt the dog. Furthermore there is a strong chance that a guard dog will be working around an area enclosed in barbed wire that a tail could also get caught on (one of my dogs got theirs caught on a wire before just by walking beside it and wagging, it isn't a pretty sight) and the same can be said for dogs that herd livestock. Tradition also dictates that farm dog's tails are docked because they can be stepped on by horses and cows and such but I personally find that unlikely and tend to feel that their proximity towards wire fences that can and do ensnare dog's tails and injure them is likely the sole reason for the tradition among farm breeds.

    So yeah for the 5/6 of us so far that are arbitrarily against both practices might help you to research the reason the practice came into existence first. While it is true that both are done purely aesthetically at times it's also true that it is frequently done in certain specialized breeds for the dog's own well-being in preparing them for the career position they will grow up to fill. You can get all PETA about that too and bemoan a dog's lack of choice in the matter or you can take pride as a dog lover in the knowledge that dogs are one of the few animals intelligent and driven enough to serve a purpose for humans beyond just simple pets and often hold careers that are more beneficial to society than a large portion of human careers are. I've helped train dogs before, some of them are awesome, brilliant creatures if given the opportunity to grow their talents correctly. Anything we can do to make a dog on the job safer I find admirable.

    Also I saved this for last for a reason but is docking a tail really any different to what most of our society (73% of world population as of shoddy 2010 google statistics) does to male babies in order to 'protect' them from urinary tract infections as they get older? I mean if we aren't traumatized by that practice (and I know no one whose ever claimed to remember it) then what exactly makes you think a puppy who lost his tail before he learned how to open his eyes is even going to remember he ever had one? Not even saying that makes it right, what I am saying is that we regularly perform a similar procedure on half of our own population, yet I've never really seen a moral discussion about doing it to a baby human and this is at least the third discussion I've been in about the ethics of docking a dog's tail. Just food for thought.
     
    #9
  10. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Actually, whether or not to circumcise a baby boy IS a huge conversation in many parenting circles, with many new parents now choosing not to have the procedure done on their infants. I say this as a mom who hears this come up often on parenting forums/blogs/etc. Thankfully only having daughters, it was never a choice I had to make (though I probably would not have had it done).
     
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  11. Philosophus Vagus

    Philosophus Vagus The drunken bird dog of rpg maker Veteran

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    @mlogan that does make sense though my point in saying I've never seen it brought up is more for forums like this. It makes sense on a forum about parenting it would crop up just as it would make sense on a dog breeding forum for the topic of cropping and docking to come up but have you ever seen discussions on the morality of circumcision crop up on a forum like this or say the steam forums or a chatgroup for teens with Aspergers syndrome? I haven't, but I've now seen discussion on whether or not dogs should be docked take place at each of them. I just find that dualism interesting, not meaning to make light of either.
     
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  12. OnslaughtSupply

    OnslaughtSupply Ssshhh... Veteran

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    It is a cruel practice but after centuries of forcefully breading them with cropping and docking in mind, some breads almost need it to not be hindered by it, such as the examples above. Human beings are no different, the practice of mutilating baby's genitals, circumcisions, before they are old enough for consent. Not too many adult males resent their parents for this. Chihuahuas were so forcefully breed down to size that they have a slew of health issues because of that. Human intervention is the sole cause of most breeds today and to say docking and cropping is unnatural would be an oxymoron as the breed would have never existed in the first place. It's still cruel, but wasn't breeding them this way also cruel?

    When I was a kid my parents had Rottweilers and their tails docked, fast forward to a few decades later, they just got a new rotty and decided to leave the tail as now it's considered cruel. His tail has broken a very large HDTV, my deceased great grandmother's lamp and had it shut in the door a least a dozen times. My mother regrets not having it done. Its a conundrum for sure.

    On an extremely personal level and tangent, I only take animals from shelters or friends and not from breeders and puppy mills. In America people pay fortunes for pure breed animals and leave mutts and such to slowly await execution in shelters and pounds. I don't feel that's right, both my dog and cat are rescues and didn't cost me anything and they are the absolute best pets I have ever had.
     
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  13. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Philosophus Vagus Yes, it does make sense that it is not often. or really ever, brought up in such forums. I was just simply making the point that it is a thing that is discussed among those who are faced with the decision and that whether it is necessary or even cruel is a fairly debated subject, even if you've not seen such debates.

    However, I think both subjects are not ones that most people discuss on a regular basis, but rather, only think about them when they are faced with such a decision.
     
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  14. Martin_Arcainess

    Martin_Arcainess Emperor Veteran

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    For style purposes no, what if someone got you at a young age and removed your fingers just because it would look cooler? or permanently dye your hair green? You'd be pretty pissed. I know I would.

    Another thing about dog breeds is it shouldn't' have happened. A lot of dogs are not natural creatures. To get different breeds require inbreeding to cause the effect of different species but we carry on because it's not wide enough knowledge for people to think otherwise or people don't really care and go for the aww it's cute.

    Here's a video explaining it.

     
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