TheoAllen

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Lemme add.
Time-gate and punishment for playing too much. ESO did this. And I believe many MMOs did this (makes me wonder why I even bother playing MMO). In ESO, you have an exp boost you can stack when you haven't been played for a while. The problem is when I feel like playing all day, realizing that I have used up all my exp boost and doing something in-game doesn't feel rewarding anymore. Ultimately, it controls how and when I play. Then I quit the game entirely.
 

EVXA

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- ABS. To put it simply, RPG Maker ABS's are garbage. All button mashing.
- Random encounters. No one knows how to do them right. Whenever I play a game with them, I'm constantly dying.
I'd love feed back on what you think about think style of combat, it's highly customized.
 
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1) Grinding a lot.
I get there's generally supposed to be this idea that you 'earn your way' to a stronger status, but I feel there's games out there where you really need to stick to one section for a while and just fight the same enemies over and over again to reach a decent enough level to continue. I really don't like when it drags out too much.
In my opinion, it's one of the reasons I absolutely loved Omori. Omori makes it to where you really don't need to grind at all because as long as you follow the path, you'll get just enough to level up and fight the boss without needing to do ridiculous amounts of fighting.

2) Having way too many items that aren't even worth using.
I'll reuse my example of Omori again because it fell into this pitfall. I feel like there were WAY too many items like healing and HP restores/mood changers that...well, you really don't need to use. More often then not, Hero's basic healing ability (Cook) did more than enough to satisfy the need to use restores outside of battle, and Juice (MP) recharges were never too far away.
It was because of how often I got items that I felt a little overwhelmed with them because I never knew when it was a good time to use them. I kept thinking "Cool, a 60 HP restore? I could use it later."...never really found an optimal time to use it, and would ultimately get much better items, rendering the 60 HP restore worthless. So it just sits there in my inventory....waiting...before I know it it's the end of the game.

3) Not having enough uses for the game's currency.
I feel like there's this stigma that when you defeat enemies, they 'need' to drop money so the player can buy better items/armors/weapons/accessories. And that's fine of course! But more often than not, the player never really needs money for better gear after a certain point.
I'll use Earthbound for instance: The game was mostly challenging in the very beginning because Ness was by himself, and you really needed to buy those upgrades so he wouldn't die to bullies and police men so much. (Grrr I hate those exploding trees in peaceful rest valley too).
But after a certain point...the game just gets way too easy, and you'll have soooo much money to a point where you won't even know what to do with it.
I feel something I wish I saw more often was Money being needed to progress storylines, serve as a barrier in side-quests, or have different ways of getting money besides enemies always dropping them. Or even if it's possible, have money be a use for something battle-wise like distracting enemies or serving as an extra MP/HP bar for a certain armor/spell. I dunno.
Just pleaaase give me some reason to utilize the 1.5 billion dollars I managed to get.

4) Having important decisions in a storyline that are way too early in a lengthy game.
When I think about this, I don't think about things like battle strategies or guides, I'm talking about games that supposedly go down completely different end routes (story wise) in a long game. It's not that I hate the idea entirely, but the fact is that in general, I don't want to replay the exact same game for another 15-20 hours after I beat 1 path, and go aaaaaall the way back in the beginning to get a few changes here and there for a new route. It draws itself out most of the time and I don't wanna grind through everything again just to see the few new changes of my early decision.
A good way to implement this sort of thing is to make it to where the decision completely changes gameplay....such as areas you visit, dialogue, new scenes, tasks...etc. More often than not, I've seen stories where the game is very long, but an early decision you made only effects something near the end, and the entire game just recycles itself. At that point, I would rather just beat 1 path, then look up all the other endings on youtube to save time.

5) Long, unstoppable cutscenes.
Cutscenes are great, but please give me a way to make sure I can pause the scene if it plays automatically. That, or just have it where you need to push a button to continue playing the dialogue. Sometimes things pop up in real life and it's annoying when I miss a whole scene because it didn't want to stop itself.


I have more pet peeves, but these are the top 5 for me.
 

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All very good points @PoptartPresident .

Here's what I have to say to them:

1) Grinding a lot.
I get there's generally supposed to be this idea that you 'earn your way' to a stronger status, but I feel there's games out there where you really need to stick to one section for a while and just fight the same enemies over and over again to reach a decent enough level to continue. I really don't like when it drags out too much.
In my opinion, it's one of the reasons I absolutely loved Omori. Omori makes it to where you really don't need to grind at all because as long as you follow the path, you'll get just enough to level up and fight the boss without needing to do ridiculous amounts of fighting.

Oh man, I could not agree more with you on this one, especially as a person that played the Digimon World DS games to oblivion.

This kind of grinding takes me out of games nowadays for a very good reason - if you are responsible for the level curve of your game, why artificially inflate the playtime by forcing the player to level grind to fight a boss? Surely you can't have the fight play out the same way regardless? Especially if your battle system isn't mechanically diverse.

Only exception I can think of are post-game encounters, but even then that needs just as much finesse and attention so you're not spending a lot of time prepping.

Having the player do quests with meaningful storylines and getting EXP from them is a nice way to subvert this grinding nonsense if you want to keep the curve high, since at least then you're interacting with the game in a meaningful way that isn't "kill the same guys over and over".

2) Having way too many items that aren't even worth using.
I'll reuse my example of Omori again because it fell into this pitfall. I feel like there were WAY too many items like healing and HP restores/mood changers that...well, you really don't need to use. More often then not, Hero's basic healing ability (Cook) did more than enough to satisfy the need to use restores outside of battle, and Juice (MP) recharges were never too far away.
It was because of how often I got items that I felt a little overwhelmed with them because I never knew when it was a good time to use them. I kept thinking "Cool, a 60 HP restore? I could use it later."...never really found an optimal time to use it, and would ultimately get much better items, rendering the 60 HP restore worthless. So it just sits there in my inventory....waiting...before I know it it's the end of the game.

Another big point because I feel items need their own niches as opposed to being general-use. In my stuff in particular not only is there a limit per individual item, but the main healing potions drain your MP with every use of them so you can't just spam them.

This is supposed to be off-set by everyone's MP naturally regenerating, but your skills also have percentage based charges and cooldowns (especially healing skills. Especially multi-character heals.)

What if you need to use a certain skill to defeat an enemy that is about to shift the tides of the battle? That kind of question is meant to pop up all the time after I take off the player's training wheels.

3) Not having enough uses for the game's currency.
I feel like there's this stigma that when you defeat enemies, they 'need' to drop money so the player can buy better items/armors/weapons/accessories. And that's fine of course! But more often than not, the player never really needs money for better gear after a certain point.
I'll use Earthbound for instance: The game was mostly challenging in the very beginning because Ness was by himself, and you really needed to buy those upgrades so he wouldn't die to bullies and police men so much. (Grrr I hate those exploding trees in peaceful rest valley too).
But after a certain point...the game just gets way too easy, and you'll have soooo much money to a point where you won't even know what to do with it.
I feel something I wish I saw more often was Money being needed to progress storylines, serve as a barrier in side-quests, or have different ways of getting money besides enemies always dropping them. Or even if it's possible, have money be a use for something battle-wise like distracting enemies or serving as an extra MP/HP bar for a certain armor/spell. I dunno.
Just pleaaase give me some reason to utilize the 1.5 billion dollars I managed to get.

The game No More Heroes has its main questline battles gated off with money requirements, if that helps.

That said, I super agree with this one. I'm considering not having enemies drop money altogether unless they specifically are treasure monsters, and repurposing it so you get money from doing quests or spelunking through the depths of the dungeons you visit.

Also, thinking of ideas for fun money sinks is a favorite past-time of mine. What if you need to use your cash to pay off a greedy gatekeeper demon, or are gated off from doing a sidequest because you're not "rich enough".

A consistent money sink like an important item you need to keep buying or a service you need to provide for a long-term positive effect is also important, especially if they ask for a percentage of your money as opposed to a hard number.

Disgaeas past 4 have it so you can pay off senators in the Dark Assembly to auto-approve bills you want (since bills in that game were essentially how you unlock more gameplay features), and it made that aspect of the game far less annoying since it actually puts the insane amount of cash you earn to use.

4) Having important decisions in a storyline that are way too early in a lengthy game.
When I think about this, I don't think about things like battle strategies or guides, I'm talking about games that supposedly go down completely different end routes (story wise) in a long game. It's not that I hate the idea entirely, but the fact is that in general, I don't want to replay the exact same game for another 15-20 hours after I beat 1 path, and go aaaaaall the way back in the beginning to get a few changes here and there for a new route. It draws itself out most of the time and I don't wanna grind through everything again just to see the few new changes of my early decision.
A good way to implement this sort of thing is to make it to where the decision completely changes gameplay....such as areas you visit, dialogue, new scenes, tasks...etc. More often than not, I've seen stories where the game is very long, but an early decision you made only effects something near the end, and the entire game just recycles itself. At that point, I would rather just beat 1 path, then look up all the other endings on youtube to save time.

Oooh, I actually have a unique answer to this one. A while back I proposed the idea of a chapter select function where you can actually skip to separate parts of the game with the minimum required skills/items/levels/gold so you don't need to repeat everything just to see something different in a certain part of the game.

That said - conventionally I do not like it when important choices are early on in the game either. I would much rather have important decisions be locked to late mid game / endgame, especially if the game is long.

The reason being that the more those early decisions impact the story/gameplay, the greater its ripple effect is. It just causes more work for something that probably won't pay off as well as intended. :kaoswt2:

So it's horribly mentally taxing on both a player and developer side! :elswt:

5) Long, unstoppable cutscenes.
Cutscenes are great, but please give me a way to make sure I can pause the scene if it plays automatically. That, or just have it where you need to push a button to continue playing the dialogue. Sometimes things pop up in real life and it's annoying when I miss a whole scene because it didn't want to stop itself.


I have more pet peeves, but these are the top 5 for me.

You hit the nail on the head there. That said I really like games that have a "do you want to skip" function like Kingdom Hearts or Dark Chronicle, where it allows you to pause the scene and gives you a prompt if you want to skip the scene altogether.

I like it so much that I've adopted the same mechanic in my own games, and I've found it to work pretty well.
 

TheoAllen

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I used to say "I like grinding". I said this a lot of times even refused to play a game without grinding. However, as time passed, it isn't what I actually mean. It doesn't mean I like to just grind million times just to meet the minimum/optimum requirement to unlock or beat the boss.

What I actually mean is "investment". I'm investing something in a hope that sometime in the future, my life (in-game) would be easier. I know that I don't waste my time. Getting EXP, level up, gearing up, etc, is a form of progression and investment. It doesn't have to be something with a progress bar. Clearing up an area from hostile NPC is also a form of investment, even if there is no progress bar (EXP, gold, etc), I would do it so no one would harass me (assume that they do not respawn).

Still, though, I sometimes enjoyed doing repetitive things in a hope of something to happen. I just don't like when the game forces me to.
 

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FF9's felt like a chore
As a completionist myself, FF9 blew me away for having a story and main quest that sucked me in so hard I forgot to do side quests. Mind, a small part of that was having stopped playing the game five times because I'd get too engrossed into the card game and told myself to just not. And after beating the game and then looking up what doing a 100% run looks like... I lost all want to do it. Favorite game in the series, literally last game in the series I will doing a 100% run on (and I'm comparing that to FFTA!).

They should always involve skill, not tedium.
I'm not entirely sure how much of your post I agree with, but this absolutely.

Time-gate and punishment for playing too much.
I've said this too many times, but you can basically point at anything in a gacha and call it a bad mechanic, this one it just so happens to share with MMOs.
 

TheoAllen

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I've said this too many times, but you can basically point at anything in a gacha and call it a bad mechanic, this one it just so happens to share with MMOs.
Depends. For gacha/mobile games, it is sort of forgivable since usually, the mechanic is too boring for playing it repetitively anyway (you play it for like a few minutes a day, up to 30 minutes probably). The goal is so that you grow over time (it won't be your main game or your main focus). In MMO though, you could play it for hours. Time-gate and punishment are more severe here.
 

Tiamat-86

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you have an exp boost you can stack when you haven't been played for a while. The problem is when I feel like playing all day, realizing that I have used up all my exp boost and doing something in-game doesn't feel rewarding anymore.
i feel this alot with most MMOs that have this rested bonus.
back when played FF11 this didnt feel as bad but the main reason for that was how a good exp grind was getting in a party and just chaining enemies as long as possible. you'd be so focused when actually having a good party that dont even notice the rested bonus faded long time ago because you've just been actively involved the entire time while still getting decent exp per hour.

but most mmo a good exp grind is something you initiate when solo, whether it just a pure solo grind or que up for instanced dungeon party. this method of exp grind you really feel it when the bonus fades because your not always active and tunnel vision focused on being a good player, your only active in short bursts.
exp bursts with a lul in between your more focused on the exp per burst instead of exp per hour like a good 4hour grind party gives you.
 

Tech

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* Item repair: Why does my Life-Stealing Greatsword of AwesomeSauce break down when I had to fight a god to get the damn thing? Now I'm scared to use it. Why is this mechanic here? Realism? Have you looked outside lately? Reality sucks, which is why I'm playing a video game instead. A cash sink? Then give me less cash in the first place. Don't act like I wasn't supposed to have beaten the dragon and taken all his treasure already and now you have to take it away.
* Cutscene/QuickTime Event Boss: Golly gee I wish I could be the one dunkin' on this git who's been treating me like something he found stuck to the bottom of his shoes since we met for basically no good reason, but I guess that would ruin your script WHY WASN'T THIS A MOVIE THEN!?
* The End-o-Tron 3000: Literally none of your choices mattered until now, when you select wether everyone in the whole world has to like Coke, Pepsi, or Virgil's Artisianal Root Beer from now on. What was the point of anything if the player has to, nay GETS TO make the Big Descision at the End for the character? Your guy should make the choice for you after all those big story choices. It makes no sense for Shepard to wipe out all AIs in the universe after s/he went through all that trouble to save the rogue AI hiding in the casino, make friends with E.D.I., and get the Geth and Quarians to talk about their feelings over cookies and orange juice.
* Rock, Paper, Scisors, Lightsaber: If you've based your combat system around beating enemies with their Elemental Damage weakness, don't pull out something that snaps the whole thing over your knee. That tells me that the game has peaked and now I don't get any more cool toys anymore and have to stop playing.
* Really 4 guys in the same Trench-coat: If you're going to do this, at least have them share the same weaknesses so I know what to equip.
 

kirbwarrior

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the mechanic is too boring for playing it repetitively anyway
Which, again, my post ;)

(you play it for like a few minutes a day, up to 30 minutes probably)
And again my post, although this time I'll explain; I am perfectly fine with a game that is set up that you only play a single "session" a day (recently been enjoying the bite-sized trpg chunks of Mario + Rabbids). But a game that stops you from playing it more? Or punishes it? That only seems to happen in games that want you playing forever aka gachas and MMOs. Can you imagine if a real* game did that?

*I'm intentionally being pretentious here, having played both genres these kinds of mechanics make it hard to treat these as games and not payless jobs.
WHY WASN'T THIS A MOVIE THEN!?
This is one of those things where I really wish a game that wanted to be a movie was just a movie, but it's also hard to tell a game developer to make a movie. It's one thing for Hideo Kojima or Square Enix to hire or make a movie because they have the budget to hire movie makers. But that's top of the AAA companies with deep pockets and many companies really do have to make "games" because that's what they do.

Of course, that begs the question of why they make games or just come up with ideas that lean into the medium, but that's far outside the discussion of mechanics.
 

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All default RM's battle mechanic. I personally hate it...
 

Tech

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Yes, you do, for my sake :stickytongue: Isn't this basically every battle system? What else do you do, trounce the enemies to 2 HP and they run away? I'm assuming you must mean something else, but I dunno what mechanic you're disliking here.
[/LIST]

Can I please have a plugin for a Morale system? It seems like all enemies are suicidally overconfident. I really want to be able to utilize a mechanic where the enemy craps itself and Flees when I pull all the arms and legs off their buddy. "Sure, he literally ate Big Jim with a fork and knife right in front of us, but I'm sure he can't horrifically murder ALL of us."
 

Htlaets

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Can I please have a plugin for a Morale system? It seems like all enemies are suicidally overconfident. I really want to be able to utilize a mechanic where the enemy craps itself and Flees when I pull all the arms and legs off their buddy. "Sure, he literally ate Big Jim with a fork and knife right in front of us, but I'm sure he can't horrifically murder ALL of us."
Wouldn't be too hard to implement. Just have pages for the troop events react to variables that get pushed by common events in certain skills.
 

IvanForever

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Yup. Achievements are supposed to be hard. Something you go out of your way to accomplish with exceptional skills. I wish people could except that you don't need to complete them. They exist for bragging rights, and if the accomplishment is not worth bragging about, it's not worth achieving.

Personally, I think they should always involve optional content, not mainline progression. They should always involve skill, not tedium.
I'm... not sure what to say to you. Nowhere in my post have I mentioned any Achievement that is hard. A lot of Achievements are simply "if you showed up for this, you will have it" (completing optional tasks) and "if you played the main story to the end, you will have it" (more like "milestones" or "how much of the game you completed"). Also, a New Game+ playthrough is usually much easier than the first playthrough...

"Defeat Ultima/Omega Weapon" (FF8) is a good Achievement and what I call a "real Achievement" because there's strategy, thinking, and skill of sorts involved. Dying multiple times might not really frustrate me at all, and could be exciting and full of thrill, especially the moment the Achievement is unlocked.

9's card game was heavily RNG based + hidden weighted RNG in favor of higher level monsters.
ie. a 5 vs 4 the 5 is a low level monster from the page 1 card list. the 4 is a higher level monster on page 3 list. the 4 will win most the time. winning that 1st mandatory card tournament was heavily RNG based.

while FF8/11(PO launcher, not in game)/14's card game it was just "what you see is what it is" so unless your playing with the reverse rule (or something like addition rule) the higher number will always win
Yeah, that's part of why I'm not a fan of 9's card game. I still enjoyed FF8's even with the "Expert Rules" like Plus, Same, etc., and found them more challenging and thrilling(?) for me. But FF9's card game was basically "meh" and confusing to me since the beginning.
 

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@IvanForever only rules i didnt like was:
random (you better let me pick my own deck)
and that trade rule where can only win cards that you flipped.
(they never place card i want until the last turn)
strategy > luck
 

IvanForever

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@Tiamat-86 Ah, right. Forgot about the Random Rule when posting here, probably because it isn't a during-the-actual-duel Rule... though a downside for Random, when there are no "Expert Rules" like Same, Plus, Same Wall, Plus Wall, etc.... is that it could have a balance issue where you are way more powerful than your opponent because you picked only strong cards (which I enjoy because who doesn't want to easily win? XD). But if one is looking for some real strategy and challenge, the Random Rule mixed with those "Expert Rules" makes this card game strategic; the Random Rule makes the card game "better" in this case because the Luck/RNG contributes to the strategy (if this makes sense). Actually, now that I have mentioned this, perhaps Random isn't really the issue here... it's when the Opponent's hand is hidden from the player. I prefer when the player can see what the cards the opponent has, otherwise it would be basically Luck > Strategy...

But yes, the Direct trade rule sucks if you're trying to finish the collection. Also the One trade rule might suck if the opponent has many cards you don't have and you keep on having to duel them one by one to get all the cards (especially when the next duel, the opponent doesn't carry any of the other cards you wanted from the previous duel, but does carry the card you happened to pick last round... and it repeats itself, argh XD)....
 
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Tiamat-86

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the plus rule 1 of my favorite. even a weak card can flip a board, rollercoaster of emotions the end like last few turns in mario party.

only time random rule was ok was FF14 vs other players or random+open but RNG can still screw you only picking weak cards while the NPCs deck is mostly set in stone.
 

IvanForever

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Yes, the Plus Rule is great for that. However, I don't think picking only weak cards in a Random and Open Rule setting is an issue (even when the NPC's hand is mostly set in stone) as long as some "Expert Rules" like Plus and/or Plus Wall are there, and Same and/or Same Wall are NOT present. A lot of the time, the weak cards are the best for the Plus Rule. I might initially think that the RNG "screwed me over" for picking only weak cards for this case, but then when I defeat the opponent through strategy with the Plus and/or Plus Wall Rule, that's probably when I realize the weak cards are the best here or something. Same Rule might help you if you take advantage of the weaker sides of the opponent's strong cards, but....

EDIT: Especially when the opponent has mostly strong cards, which means lots of 6-9, and your hand has mostly weak cards (1-5), there's a consistency of a "pattern" that gives you a great advantage for the Plus Rule with your weak cards! (I guess the same could be true for the opponent's side as well, but...)
 

Tiamat-86

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8 the random was less issue because you could manipulate the spread/deletion of rules.
14 you had no control of rules vs npcs and it wasnt often you got random+plus.
it was always some crap like random+order, random+chaos (order/chaos force you to play specific cards in specific order) or random+ascension (each card same family give +1 to all cards of that family) and the npc has a family deck
 
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IvanForever

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Oh, wow... that sounds like it sucks and got pretty complicated. I have not played FF14 and didn't know that... Also, speaking of the card game, for some reason I find the Elemental Rule a bit "meh" and feel like RNG is involved more than actual strategy.

As a completionist myself, FF9 blew me away for having a story and main quest that sucked me in so hard I forgot to do side quests. Mind, a small part of that was having stopped playing the game five times because I'd get too engrossed into the card game and told myself to just not. And after beating the game and then looking up what doing a 100% run looks like... I lost all want to do it. Favorite game in the series, literally last game in the series I will doing a 100% run on (and I'm comparing that to FFTA!).

I feel the same way. I'm also a Completionist and that's what drove me nuts about 100%-ing the game. :p Lovely story, but crappy conditions for completing everything.
 

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