Jesse - PVGames

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@Ralpf - Yes, definitely!

@SpellcraftQuill and AwesomeCool - This stuff is incorporated into the Medieval Interiors pack (thus far anyway). When I get a bit more work done I will show how some of it looks. 
 

Dungeonmind

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All I gotta say is wow! I'm so pleased with the fact that you keep adding on to the same style "fantasy" so that people can make complete full games. I am very satisfied with the resources I have purchased thus far. I will be buying all your packs for sure! And I cannot wait for this new castle tiles, they look simply stunning!

Keep up the great work! :)
 

Ralpf

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@Ralpf - Yes, definitely!

@SpellcraftQuill and AwesomeCool - This stuff is incorporated into the Medieval Interiors pack (thus far anyway). When I get a bit more work done I will show how some of it looks. 
Thought that would be the case, just wanted to make sure. From how I'm guessing you process goes diagonal wouldn't be too much time after you have everything else done.
 

Jesse - PVGames

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Here is a picture showing some of the more regal tiles (mixed with some of the other interior tiles). The characters are the same ones from the other pictures because I haven't made any new character stuff yet:

NLGszLA.png


And for anyone who missed the first interior image:

mKkMOnG.png


I've focused a lot on crafting items, so there is a flour mill (shown above) along with bread-baking stuff, spinning wheels, a loom, forges, anvils, tools, lumber/carpentry stuff, etc. When I get more floor/walls combinations done I might whip up some new pictures of different types of interiors.

I get asked a lot if there will be toilets/sinks and such (like how the RTP comes with the sink) - the answer is no. This is medieval and they did not have indoor plumbing back then. You will get a chamber pot and a water bucket though. Maybe even a garderobe (basically a small closet with a hole in it that drops sewage down into a cesspool). Hygiene and sanitation were not top concerns back then which is why disease was so rampant. You will have to supply your own indoor plumbing if you are looking for it :)

As with the Town and Country tiles, I am actually almost done with the Interior tiles as well. When I say almost done, I mean I have a draft of all the B-E styled tile sheets. I still have walls/roofs/grounds etc to make. Everything is still a work in progress, and I have not made any of the character stuff yet, or animals/monsters. But it is all shaping up nicely and I have been enjoying focusing the color palette (or rather, the color tones I suppose) more than I have in the past.
 

Ralpf

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Here is a picture showing some of the more regal tiles (mixed with some of the other interior tiles). The characters are the same ones from the other pictures because I haven't made any new character stuff yet:

I've focused a lot on crafting items, so there is a flour mill (shown above) along with bread-baking stuff, spinning wheels, a loom, forges, anvils, tools, lumber/carpentry stuff, etc. When I get more floor/walls combinations done I might whip up some new pictures of different types of interiors.

I get asked a lot if there will be toilets/sinks and such (like how the RTP comes with the sink) - the answer is no. This is medieval and they did not have indoor plumbing back then. You will get a chamber pot and a water bucket though. Maybe even a garderobe (basically a small closet with a hole in it that drops sewage down into a cesspool). Hygiene and sanitation were not top concerns back then which is why disease was so rampant. You will have to supply your own indoor plumbing if you are looking for it :)

As with the Town and Country tiles, I am actually almost done with the Interior tiles as well. When I say almost done, I mean I have a draft of all the B-E styled tile sheets. I still have walls/roofs/grounds etc to make. Everything is still a work in progress, and I have not made any of the character stuff yet, or animals/monsters. But it is all shaping up nicely and I have been enjoying focusing the color palette (or rather, the color tones I suppose) more than I have in the pas
I don't think a bowl with water on a table would be out of place, but I'm not going to say it bothers me to not have a sink.

Edit: The one in the stack in the second picture with water in it would be my thought on how that would look.
 
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The Stranger

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I agree with Ralpf. People did use wash basins\bowls during the Middle Ages. Cleansing of the face and hands was a common practice during the Middle Ages - bathing was also very common. It wasn't to the same standards of today, but people did clean themselves. Disease was rampant due to poor diets (a scarcity of fruit and veg often led to intestinal maladies) and poor living conditions - which often led to things such as pneumonia in the winter. I do agree that sanitation was a problem, though - typhoid was a big problem because of this.

The screenshots are looking very good, though. Perhaps we could have some bath house objects? These were common structures during the Middle Ages. One thing I'd love to see are large wall tapestries - these were not only beautiful, but helped keep the draft out. Looking forward to the release of these resources.
 
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Jesse - PVGames

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I did not mean there were not things like bowls and water and such. I just said no indoor plumbing.
 

The Stranger

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I did not mean there were not things like bowls and water and such. I just said no indoor plumbing.
I didn't mean to cause offence or anything. I just wanted to point out that hygeine was a big part of daily life for many back then. It also gives elbow room to be creative when it comes to creating locations and objects. Again, I apologise if it seemed like I was talking down to you, that was not my intention. :)
 

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I noticed that your graphics look less 90s CRPG and more like Suikoden II. Even Wild Steam didn't look very Ultima to me.
 

Jesse - PVGames

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Oh, no offence was caused at all, I was making dinner so my response probably came off as short :)

Everything I have thus far read points to hygiene not being a priority in life during the Medieval times, especially for commoners. You basically went to the bathroom in a chamberpot and emptied it out of your window. If you were wealthy, you would have a commode and someone less fortunate would get to wipe your bum and empty your chamber pot. Bathing was not something done regularly, nor was washing clothing. Lice were extremely common. Now, more rich people might have felt that being clean and having hygiene were more important than the common people, but their practices leave a LOT to be desired, some of which include things like using urine to wash your skin. People just did not have any concept of what germs or bacteria were - these did not exist, only God did and he bestowed plagues on people not because they didn't know to wash the poop off of their fingers, but because he was righteously offended for a myriad of reasons. There were no such things as hygiene products - there was no toothpaste so dental problems were always common (and people just yanked out ailing teeth); there was no such thing as toilet paper, you used dried leaves or if you were rich there were clothes that the aforementioned less fortunate person got to use on your bum; there were no laundry machines, so clothes had to be hand scrubbed which was a long and arduous chore, one of which was not high on the list of responsibilities since there were so many more pressing matters to attend to such as cooking (which was extremely time consuming) - and when it was done, sometimes it was washed in a combination of lye and urine; There was no pest control really, so lice, mice, and all manners of vermin were very common, and bird feces were often in beds and such as well. The list just goes on and on really.

If you look at images and such depicting medieval hygiene and their practices, you rarely see something other than a bowl, barrel, or similar type objects to hold water (or urine, often enough, or if you have an STD, maybe some nice mercury), and I have got plenty of those items already made for tiles :)  

I just get asked a lot in PMs and such if there are going to be things like toilets - in which case, no, there will not be.

I did read up on the history of the toilet just now though (the fun things you learn for research purposes). It is interesting because there were various crude flush-type toilets dating way back before even the Medieval era, but they were not adopted for the time period (and even so, they  were basically just holes that let the waste go into a cesspool a bit further away, nothing like what modern plumbing is like). It isn't until the Industrial Revolution that a flushable toilet started becoming more commonplace, but then only in industrialized areas (not sure when septic systems were invented, which made wide-range use of toilets the norm). 
 

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Now I kinda want a shower. :)

Looking good as always.

Are the characters going to be taller than they were in Wild Steam or will we be able to use all the pieces together, even if that might seem like a bad idea?
 

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I am one of those who keep asking about toilet and toilet (ask jesse for confirmation if you don't believe me LOL).

I am not a big fans of medieval stuffs,

but I do hope there is toilet and shower in Mythos Horror (and Sci Fi if you are going to release it).

And assuming you will also create the new RPMV tile for them (Mythos and Scifi), then I  hope that you don't forget the toilet:D ~~
 
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Ralpf

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Yes, the weird things you find while looking up toilets online: Demon Of the Privy

John Harrington invented the first "modern" toilet somewhere around 1596 (I don't know when it was in wide use though), any time before that would make it way out of place. And would probably be out of place for anybody but royalty for a while after that.
 

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Any estimated release on the medieval packs? I'm too excited!
 

Jesse - PVGames

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@TheInfamous Bon Bon - The characters are a bit larger, so the wild steam pieces mostly won't fit and vice versa - plus these new ones have a ton more animations than the wild steam ones, so the clothing and equipment will have many more supported animations as well. The character frames are 128x128, but the characters themselves fit very nicely in 48x96 dimensions (the extra frame space is for adding things like weapons, capes, etc, stuff that would normally be too big to fit in a smaller frame).

@Metronome - lol, one of many :)  The Sci-Fi pack (which was submitted already) does contain stuff like a toilet and sink, so hopefully that will help you :)

@Ralpf - Yeah, it was invented even earlier than that really, with some primitive designs going back to BC. But you still never really saw them in use very much until the Industrial Revolution (a bit earlier in France, for some reason England didn't seem to care for the toilets). I think John Harrington (or it might be someone else) was related to some Queen or another and installed a toilet for her but she refused to use it because it made too much noise, allegedly.

@Dungeonmind - Not for awhile. No point in rushing it anyway since MV isn't even out.
 

The Stranger

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@Jesse - Hygiene was very important for people in the Middle Ages. The belief that people only took yearly baths and walked around caked in dirt and grime is a myth. The fourteenth century writer, Magninius Mediolanesis, started writing "Regimen sanitatis" which detailed the importance of cleaning the entire body. In fact, he goes on to claim bathing could help stop certain illnesses and lists 40-50 ways bathing could improve your health.

A medical treatise was also compiled during this time called the "Secreta Secretorum" which went into detail on the benefits of bathing; though, it did say that excessive bathing led to weakness and becoming fat.

The wealthy would use private baths, which was a wooden tub with a tent-like structure over it. This gave them privacy as they bathed. The tub would be filled with hot water by household servants. Royalty loved having baths. Records show that King John, when travelling around his kingdom, would take a bathtub with him, and had a personal attendant named William who handled it. In 1351, King Edward III paid for taps with hot and cold water supplies in his palace at Westminister. Bathing was massive throughout all of Europe, not just Britain. In fact, the tradition is found to go all the way back to the Carloginians - Einhard says that Charlemagne himself loved to bathe, and would have his family and other nobility bathing in a large bath with him.

Wealthy monasteries often could pipe in water to fill baths. Though some monastic orders did have rules which suggest to us that they did only bathe four times a year, we're not sure if these were actual rules, or the minimum amount of times a monk should bathe throughout the year. However, we do know that Westminister Abbey employed a bath attendant who was paid a daily sum of two loaves of bread, as well as a stipend of £1 per year, which indicates that his services were used on a regular basis.

Even the common people had access to actual bathing facilities. The city of Paris had over 32 public bathhouses with hot water. In Southwark, a town opposite the Thames river from London, a person had access to 18 bathhouses, again, all with hot water. The bathhouses were often connected to a local bakery, so that the baths themselves could make use of the heat from the ovens to heat the water.

The book "Clean: A History of Personal Hygiene and Purity" by Virginia Smith explains that bath feasting was as common, by the fifteenth century, as people going out to restaurants in later centuries.

Some members of the Church did speak out against the idea of public bathhouses, but, in reality, the Church had little influence over many aspects of life in the Middle Ages. The Church attempted to forbid many practices which people enjoyed (dancing being one of them) but people carried on doing them. The Church was powerful, but not so powerful to as control the actions of every man and woman in all of Europe. In truth, public bathhouses went into a rapid delcine during the sixteenth century, most likely due to the puritanical groups who were enforcing their strict form of morality on everyone else. Since bathhouses were also locations to hire prostitutes during the Middle Ages, the spread of syphilis also helped to drive certain people away.

I agree with you that sanitation was bad. However, the idea that people were exceedingly dirty and had no concept of physical cleanliness is absurd. Countless images and records from the era tell us that people not only enjoyed bathing, but that it was very common and very social.

I'd also like to say that the lack of many hygeine products is partially false. You mention toilet paper not existing. Sure, it didn't exist in the form we know it, but most people used a sort of woolen item for this purpose, not leaves. The wealthy would use cloth, but it wouldn't be from the poor. People were not as downtrodden as we, in the modern world, like to believe. There was also soap, though, it didn't have much in the way of cleansing power when it first arrived. I believe there was also another type of cleaning product used for clothes, which was very potent stuff. People also knew how to use urine to create a decent cleaning product for washing clothes - this practice goes all the way back to Ancient Rome.

I have no doubt that some people were unclean back then (just as there are loads of unclean people around today), or so adherent to every edict of the Church that they went without bathing. However, this simply wasn't the case for most people.People were just as aware of their bodily odours back then as we are today. People liked to smell nice. There was no germ theory back then, but people were not complacent with living in filth. They knew that filth usually led to illness - even if a lot of this was based on how bad something smelled. In Britain, professions which created a lot of horrid smells were often forced, under law, to set up shop either outside the city, or in their own district - butchery, tanning, the use of woad to create blue dye. People didn't want to deal with that stuff. Usually, in larger cities, human waste would also be taken outside the city and dumped in a brook just beyond the walls. The streets were dirty, but they weren't caked in crap. There were also public toilets across the London bridge, well, small alcoves where you could defecate into the Thames. Common Privies were well, common, in large cities during this time. Yes, people did relieve themselves in alley's and against buildings and walls, just like people do today, but it was frowned upon. A lot of cities spent a fair amount of money constructing and maintaining public toilets, and even in trying to maintain pollution.

So, yeah. Medieval myths. People back then weren't that different from people today. I can supply sources if you like. Though, most of my info comes from my large book collection, college papers, and other written works. I do have two links on hand if you want to have a look at a website about these topics. You're not wrong about the Middle Ages being more unclean than today, but people weren't living like ignorant savages back then. Like I said, they lacked Germ Theory and a firm understanding of why hygiene was so important, but they did understand that bathing was important. They knew that filth usually stank and dirty water tasted foul, which usually led to sickness.

I do support your decision to not include actual toilets as we know them, though. Your resources are amazingly detailed and great for creating more grittier games. Though, one thing is bothering me about one of your screenshots. Is that an American style mailbox just outside the building on the left? I can't wait for these new MV resources to be released. :)
 
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Ralpf

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There are definitely some mixed histories in that era in regards to science and sanitation specifically, but ultimately we are talking about indoor plumbing (and kinda got off track from there) which would be out of place (Assuming your setting is to mirror middle age Europe, which is what is being assumed here.)

@Jesse: Harrington is credited with the first flush toilet, which is what I meant, toilets in various form have been around for millennia, though. I heard on a show somewhere years ago that the problem with his toilet was smell, someone later came up with the U-bend in the plumbing, which effectively plugs the plumbing keeping the various gasses from rising out of the toilet.

I have often thought that anything that happen more then...say 100 years ago is hard to be certain about, all of the people who would have seen it happen would likely be dead. Also likely anyone they would have told would be dead. Leaving only painted and drawn picture, sparse writing, etc. which are often biased to some measure.  History is about interpreting from what we have to work with, which often isn't a lot, making it more of an art than a science. That is changing of course with the ubiquity of cameras (video and still) starting in the last 50 years (Or so) historians in the future will have at least some hard data to work with.
 
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Jesse - PVGames

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@The Stranger - I too read the website which you got your information from (http://www.medievalists.net/2013/04/13/did-people-in-the-middle-ages-take-baths/)

There are some things to keep in mind: the majority of examples used here point to a very small segment of the population (royalty, a couple of the more well-to-do locales). The site talks a bit about bathhouses and their use but they did stop being used due to the moral issues involved (men and women seeing each other naked which could lead to sexy time) but it also points out that things like disease and plague also drove people away because... bathhouses were unsanitary, a breeding ground for all sorts of diseases. You take a bunch of filthy people and put them all in the same stew pot, you are bound to spread bad stuff. And even though writings such as Secreta Secretorum existed, literacy was not something that was common among the average people, and for those who could read, it is very unlikely that they would have much time to do so and brush up on their bathing etiquette (these writings had far more to do with the ceremony of bathing and the potential 'medical' effects of bathing like stopping diarrhea than actually spreading the good word of hygiene). 

I could go on all day about this stuff, but it is really off topic at this point, so if you want to continue the discussion, feel free to bring it to PM :)
 

The Stranger

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@Jesse - I did use that website, I also used several others and four books; most of them say the same things - people did maintain personal hygiene. I do think you're greatly underestimating our ancestors, but, as you said, the thread is getting kind of off track at this point. I do hope we can continue to speak of this in private. There's a lot of myths about the Medieval era which many continue to buy into even to this day.

I apologise for derailing the thread. Keep up the good work on the resources. :)

I did forget to ask something earlier on: will you only be making northern European Medieval resources, or, will you be expanding to Eastern European and even Middle-Eastern and North African resources? I'd love some resources focusing on the early crusades, with character pieces for not only crusader armies, but Muslim troops.
 
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BloodletterQ

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@Jesse - I did use that website, I also used several others and four books; most of them say the same things - people did maintain personal hygiene. I do think you're greatly underestimating our ancestors, but, as you said, the thread is getting kind of off track at this point. I do hope we can continue to speak of this in private. There's a lot of myths about the Medieval era which many continue to buy into even to this day.

I apologise for derailing the thread. Keep up the good work on the resources. :)

I did forget to ask something earlier on: will you only be making northern European Medieval resources, or, will you be expanding to Eastern European and even Middle-Eastern and North African resources? I'd love some resources focusing on the early crusades, with character pieces for not only crusader armies, but Muslim troops.
I'm guessing we will see Arabian styles in the fourth resource pack along with Nordic styles. 

Here are some (with wishful thinking) items I am hoping to see for the characters:

Standalone stubble: I'm guessing that this will be hard but you have scars in Wild Steam.

Wrinkles: Same as above. 

Different skin tones for both genders.

Headbands/headwraps

Hooded cape

Paper fans and flails as weapons. I'd assume the battle stances will mostly be the same as Wild Steam which don't seem to accomodate for flails. Some of them were from High Fantasy resource packs too.
 

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