MMORPG Theory Crafting levels with no stat gains. (just for fun)

[omen613]

I'm a nerd and like to theory craft game mechanics for fun

So me and a friend were talking about World of Warcraft (I'm sure you've heard of it) the other day and talked about how a large number of the player base has a max level character and they usually can all be found in one zone out of the entire game world. Kinda sad to have this giant world full of lore and enemies that are empty because those game zones are obsolete low level areas.

What if all the zones in the world of warcraft were relevant to players? You had a reason to stop those defias bandits even tho your level 34245232!

What if everyone started out with level 50 stats (not abilities or gear just stats like HP, Mana, Attack, Spell power, etc. based on their class.) and all the enemies in every zone were designed with those states in consideration. You start off as level 1 and when you level you learn new abilities but you don't receive any stat increases. (Of course abilities would have to be reworked.) You receive stat increase through gear and weapons gained from bosses in dungeons or crafters who need crafting materials from enemies. and the increase in the stats would have to be balanced with some kinda trade off. 

Example

               Steel Armor

• Defense + 100%
• Skills costs 2x more resources to use.

                Leather Armor

• Evasion + 33%
• defense +0%

                 Poison Dagger

• Low damage
• Inflicts a strong poison on target

               Raider's Great Axe

• High Damage
• Lowers accuracy by 25%

Great examples? No. But you get the idea.

The idea was all foes would be challenging to an extent. Sure a Murloc is weak and can be taken down with little effort...but a swarm of them?

A Fel demon? Might be a little tough to take on solo...let see if you can tho! Why is a bear in this forest not as strong as a bear in another forest? it's a bear for crying out loud! and you just poked the bear!

Also Dungeon's would be the same layout each time...but the enemies inside will differ each time through a lottery of possible spawns. First time you went in to retrieve some digging machine that was stolen by Kobolds...the Kobolds accidentally awoken some ancient golems buried in the earth that are now recking everything and everyone in their paths....the next time you go it could be that they have dug up some corrupt crystals that altered their bodies and gave them demonic powers and unlocks a new boss in the dungeon that is a Demon that is feeding off their corruption. You also became locked to that dungeon's lottery spawn until you either beat the dungeon or wait an earth week for it to become lottery again. This was intended to add randomness to dungeons so people wouldn't just bring certain job classes along because those classes are good for that dungeon. 

So for fun, what are ideas to add to this and what are problems with this (there are problems) and what can be done to fix those problems? Put on your game designer hat and go to town.

Some questions to start off with:

• How to encourage players to repeat content
• How to make the gap between new players and veteran players smaller to encourage grouping together
• How to make players impact the actual world and make their nations grow

 

[Ronpa]

A lot of this has been done in a way in Guild Wars 2.

(As a note for people not familiar with GW2, events are just like quests where you get most of your EXP except they happen automatically while you're exploring the map. They happen at different times or are triggered depending on what players do.)

Levels are as normal, but your level is scaled down depending on the map you're on. If you're a high level, you'll still be noticeably stronger than a low level, but events are still challenging, you have lower stats to match newer players, and you still get good EXP. Going to a lower level map can be just as good at leveling on a higher level map. Lower level maps give a bit less EXP but events that happen on the map are quicker to finish, while higher level places might give more but they take longer time. It balances out really well in my opinion.

As for dungeons with the same layout but different foes... well, the dungeons in Guild Wars 2 have dungeons that have the same theme but have a different layout. However, some look very close and they have different enemies and challenges. But in open world areas there might be a cave or underground mini-dungeon type thing where it's the same layout but it has different events cycle through it. If you go in one time, there might be something else happening in it and you'll get a completely different experience.

 

[omen613]

I've yet to try guild wars 2, i've heard positive and negative remarks about the game. It sounds like you have some extensive experience with the game, did you happen to observe problems within its method of leveling? Did more people level up in the lower level areas then the higher level areas due to it being faster kills? or was it pretty well mixed?

 

[Ellie Jane]

The Guild Wars 2 methods allow a much longer living game than one based on quests. But I didn't see the point in leveling at all. Really it just stands as an obstacle to stop people instantly traveling from one place to another (which I guess is the point). Other than that levels serve no real purpose in the game. I'd have liked to see them ditch levels altogether. They almost did this in Factions, making everyone level 20-ish by the time they reach the mainland. But they didn't quite do it. (There was no point in levels 1-19 being levels really).

 

[omen613]

@Amy Pond

I wish I could see a well designed no level system myself but It seems to be the best method of showing progression to players. How would you suggest showing progress such as acquiring new abilities without levels to a player? If you get them from doing quests then I'd imagine people would only do the quests that give what is deemed the "best" skills and ignore the rest. If you get new skills from using other skills X amount of times people would just spend a few hours spamming the move on the weakest enemies in the game till they have mastered all their skills.

First person shooters seem to do it best tho for it's all about the game play. Everyone has the same stats to start with and it just becomes a battle of skill and better guns.

 

[Ronpa]

The Guild Wars 2 methods allow a much longer living game than one based on quests. But I didn't see the point in leveling at all. Really it just stands as an obstacle to stop people instantly traveling from one place to another (which I guess is the point). Other than that levels serve no real purpose in the game. I'd have liked to see them ditch levels altogether. They almost did this in Factions, making everyone level 20-ish by the time they reach the mainland. But they didn't quite do it. (There was no point in levels 1-19 being levels really).

It's very true that the goal of Guild Wars 2 was to have no end-game, or very little end-game. They wanted to make a game where you didn't have to grind to do fun things. I think leveling just becomes a chore when your main goal is to just grind to the top. You get EXP from almost every single thing you do in GW2. It's really a game based around exploration, not getting levels. Even just walking around the map will get you EXP. Don't think about getting levels, they'll come easily enough on their own.

However there are some purposes to level, but they're not for everyone.

1. Getting to dress up your character, finally. (You don't want to use those fancy skins on a weak pair of armor, do you?)

2. Everything is unlocked so now you can focus on getting a REAL build. I love playing around with different stats and seeing how much stronger I am once I set things up. You can actually start developing a playstyle and having true fun with your class without restrictions.

3. Dungeons, if it's your thing. Some dungeons are really cool and creative in my opinion, and being a high enough level makes it so they're not impossible to do. Good source of money or other items, and good fun.

4. You can be more effective in WvW. If you're skilled enough, you can do great at lower levels and I often use it to level up my alts but with a full build you can do so much more. I especially like roaming and doing some 1v2s.

Also, some living story quests might be too hard at lower levels, plus it's always cool to be able to explore new maps. Plenty enough reason to level for me.

 

[omen613]

Guess i need to play GW2 haha

 

[Lars Ulrika]

Must.....not.....try.....

 

[Tai_MT]

Yeah, everyone already pretty much nailed it with the "Guild Wars 2 already does that" thing.  Stats you have are largely based upon what class you took.  However, once you can acquire Rare or Exotic weapons and armor, those quickly outclass almost any points you've put into your stats or your build.  It then becomes "respec your character time" in order to make your class work in conjunction with your equipment.

I've spent as much time in low level areas as I have in high level areas.  Currently, I spend most of my time in a "newbie area" because of the "Champion Train" that goes through it.  It's a good way to make money or obtain mats.  Here's something else Guild Wars 2 does that nobody has mentioned yet:  Loot drop tables are based upon your current level.  You can still get "low level" loot, but more often than not, you're obtaining mats and equipment tailored to your level.  The train I mentioned frequently drops equipment that is level 80.  If I break down equipment from that same train, I often get mid to high tier mats out of it.

There is quite literally zero handicap to going into a low level area to play with a friend.  You might outstrip them in damage or defense, but it doesn't always matter.  I've done low level events with a few of my low level friends and we even ended up failing a couple because it wasn't about how many enemies we killed, it was about doing some other task.  Or, we've failed events because the Champion we were fighting was just too powerful for only 3 players to tackle it.  Really, the only advantage to low level areas for high level players is that the Jump Puzzles in those locations are among the easiest in the game.  Why is that important?  If you're trying for Daily or Monthly achievements and they ask you to do Jump Puzzles, you know where to go.  Also, enemies in low level areas are less likely to hit you with debuffs.  Higher level areas?  Yeah, they tend to hit you with more.

 

[omen613]

Hmm interesting

So your more drawn to low level areas to play with low level friends and to farm mats or achievements. So your friend wouldn't really go to the higher level area with you i'm guessing then. Or am i reading to deep into your post lol. 

 

[Tai_MT]

If your friend reaches higher levels, they can come with you into higher level areas.  The level requirement is merely there to keep you from wandering into areas with enemies that would kill you because you wouldn't have the equipment or skills to actually take them on.

I currently spend a lot of time in low level areas just because that's where the most reliable "Champion Train" is (a Champion Train is a large group of people... usually anywhere from 50 to 200, who have all the Champions of an area on a timer and so they go kill them all in succession to maximize loot gain.  There aren't many maps that allow for a Champion Train, but one of the low level ones is the most reliable because you'll have a ton of lower level players there to help out).

Honestly, in Guild Wars 2, the game just doesn't "open up" until you've hit the level 80 cap.  There's plenty of reasons to go to any particular map you want, regardless of level.  Sometimes there are things to do in the low level areas that you missed as well, because you just didn't start in that area (there are 5 starting zones, so like 10 areas are "low level" zones for newbies).  Also, world events can sometimes take you back into those low level areas in order to fight monsters that are not "low level".  It's a pretty good and dynamic system.  Doesn't drag your levels higher, but it will lower your levels if you go into lower level zones.

It is quite a lot of fun if you've got a lot of hours to kill.