Monney balance

Discussion in 'Game Mechanics Design' started by Kingdommangas, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Kingdommangas

    Kingdommangas Veteran Veteran

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    In the perspective of game design, how do you balance your money in your project ?

    In my case, I have 8 weapons in total for my character and I arbitrarily decide the last weapons price to divide him by the number of weapons for the first one and after I addition it with the price of the first.
    I think I have a nice progression system but I dont work yet on how make money.
    1 ->1 875
    2 -> 3 750
    3 -> 5 625
    4 -> 7 500
    5 -> 9 375
    6 -> 11 250
    7 -> 13 125
    8 -> 15 000
    What do you think of this system ? How do you balance your money ?
     
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  2. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I'd say it's tough as it also depends on how much money you hand out. 500 can be expensive if you only give 1 G per battle after all. So it really depends on how much money you hand out per fight, and how many fights you want the player to have to do per upgrade.
     
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  3. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    one way to calculate the basis of money is to check how much it will cost for the player to heal up after a fight, compared to how much money is gained from that fight. so start with the price of healing potions.
    The difference between gains and healing is what the player will have left to purchase better equipment, and then set the price for the first improved weapon based on how many battles you want the player to have before he can afford it - always taking into account the need to heal after the fights.
     
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  4. Eschaton

    Eschaton Hack Fraud Veteran

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    I think a game's economy needs to strike a balance between feeling fair and feeling like it rewards the player's hard work. It is a thing that ought to be tweaked until it feels right to you and your testers. Amd if it feels right to you, is utterly satisfying to you, the player will adapt to it.
     
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  5. CuddleFox

    CuddleFox Furry Veteran

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    Personally it is the prices of the objects that go down as the game progresses. And the money given by enemies depends on the results of the fight.
    It allows the player to know that no matter where he is in the game, if he has 1000 paws, he will be able to do a lot of things. It gives a clearer value to money.
    And also allows price inflation. The player can choose to wait until he is stronger and keep his money to buy more copies of an item later.
     
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  6. Kupotepo

    Kupotepo Fantasy realist Veteran

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    @Kingdommangas, I am not sure yet how to answer your question. Please inform me about the price you set for a hp potion, a magic potion, and the prices of antidotes. So at least we have math to work with here.:guffaw:

    I have multiple currencies using a Yanfly plugin. Some enemies don't drop money.
     
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  7. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Kupotepo Please remember that this section of the forum is not for feedback on individual projects but for looking at aspects of game play at a more conceptual level. Therefore the stats for one particular game is not relevant.
     
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  8. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    Based on what I want the player to be doing and how long I want them to reasonably work to obtain something in a shop. The monsters in the first area of my game drop 1-3 GP a kill (more commonly, you'll get that 1 GP). As such, a Healing Potion will restore 30 HP. The first three party members you get only have 20 HP max. The enemies that drop 1 GP a kill will deal 2 damage a turn. Without equipment, it takes 4 turns to kill these enemies (you'll take 6 damage). With equipment, you'll kill the enemies in 2 turns (you don't start with equipment). So, before you need to use a Potion, you'll fight about 4 battles without equipment and 8 with equipment. My HP Potions, therefore, cost 5 GP. The player is meant to obtain their equipment from the first quest quickly and if they avoid doing that, they will die.

    The set of equipment is given to the player in the first two or three quests. Free. They are meant to be using this money to obtain Potions to keep them in the game (no dedicated healer class in the game, so my money is more valuable).

    The first piece of equipment you can buy is some armor. Some Leather Armor. 35 GP for the Helm, 55 for the Chest, 25 for Boots, and 25 for Gloves. 140 GP total cost. So, you'll be fighting those first monsters for 140 total kills. That's very unreasonable. These prices are meant to push the player into finding new enemies to kill. Push them into finding the monsters that drop 3 GP per kill. Push them into going into dungeons to hopefully find treasure. Push them to sell old equipment to obtain the new equipment. What about the second Tier of Sword you get, how much is that? 40 Gold pieces. To kit up one character, just to the next tier of equipment, will cost 180 GP. 180 Battles... or... 60 Battles. 60 still seems unreasonable, doesn't it? But, if you consider that you can also sell the previous equipment to buy the new stuff, it takes about 30 battles. If you consider that the first fights are 1v1 affairs, but the ones where you fight the monsters with 3 GP are 2v2 affairs, it takes even less combat than that to kit up the first person. This, of course, also ignores any equipment you may gain from opening chests or that you've received from Quest completion. It ignores monster drops as well. Those monsters that drop 1 GP are also guaranteed to drop an item every single battle (it's a Quest item, but you can sell it) that is worth 5 GP every single time.

    My money limitation pushes the player into interacting more with shops and the world at large. To consider behaviors they don't usually in an RPG. Who sells their items in an RPG? Unless you've got limited inventory space, most players just hoard everything. Furthermore, with a Dedicated Healer, most players don't even buy Consumables like Potions. They rely on the slow drip feed of finding those in combat or treasure chests. By the end of most RPG's, the player has far more money than they'll ever spend.

    I've deliberately created gold sinks into the game. I've artificially increased how valuable my currency is. All in the name of keeping players from accumulating far more than they'd ever use. They are required to buy Potions. They are required to buy Antidotes. They aren't required to buy Equipment, but if they have extra money, they can spend their currency to get an upgrade they may not normally have. They are required to pick up Quests to get money rewards.

    Without a baseline of what your money is actually worth, I don't really have an opinion on this. The value of any currency is relative to how difficult it is to obtain it and how much of it needs to be spent.

    Supply and demand.

    If Sword 1 costs 300 Gold, and I obtain 100 Gold per fight, that sword isn't very valuable. It's as valuable as 3 fights. As valuable as about 5 minutes of gameplay.

    If Sword 2 costs 1000 Gold and I obtain 100 Gold per fight, this sword is more valuable. It's as valuable as 10 fights. As valuable as about 17 minutes of gameplay.

    If Sword 1 costs 300 Gold and I obtain 700 Gold per fight, the sword is practically worthless. I can afford it after just a single fight, so it's probably not very good compared to what I have now.

    If Sword 2 costs 1000 Gold and I obtain 20,000 Gold per fight, this sword is effectively worthless. I can afford 20 of them after a single fight. They may as well be free at this point. Unless, of course, that 20,000 Gold came from a Boss Monster that took 30 minutes to fight or so. Then, suddenly, 20 of those swords are worth 30 minutes of gameplay. They're valuable again.

    To make your currency valuable, you need to consider the Supply and Demand of that currency in your game. Otherwise, any number is just arbitrary. Value is relative and not absolute. 20,000 GP in my game sounds like it's worth more than it is in your game. In my game, that Tier 1 Sword would take 1,875 battles to obtain. How many would it take in yours? 5? 10?

    What are the Gold Sinks you have in your game? How much Gold are you giving out per combat? How much Gold does the player need to reasonably spend each time they come to town? Each time they get out of combat to erase mistakes (missing health, removing debuffs, restoring MP)? What about Inns? What do they cost? How close together are towns?

    You balance this by deciding how many battles you want the player to go through before they can afford something. How much money the enemies in the area they're at will drop. How long, in game, that takes to accomplish.

    Consider that the first sword in my game costs 20 GP, but the player gets it for free and cannot buy another. If they sell it, they get 10 GP. The second sword costs 40 GP. They'll likely be using that first sword for quite a while to obtain the second one. The upgrades aren't "immediate". There's a chunk of time between each one.

    Why did I want to do this? So that when players opened a chest or got a new piece of equipment, they would immediately open their inventory to see what it did. Equipment rarity leads players to examine that equipment. Games like "Borderlands" do this, despite dropping equipment frequently. It's sectioned off by "rarity" and "level". You don't even bother looking at anything lower level than yourself in those games. If you have a purple rarity weapon at your level, you won't bother looking at anything lower rarity than that (rarity in that game is white, green, blue, purple, orange). This is because the equipment drops are so frequent, you need a way to not waste so much time just looking at that crap in an inventory. Managing a menu screen.

    I do the same thing by simply making equipment rare to come across. Rare for the player to obtain. If a chest drops a Sword of Light, you will look at it, because maybe it's better. It might be an upgrade. Or, it might confer a different advantage. It's been an hour since you got a new Sword. Your curiosity is going to get the better of you. It's also been 20 minutes since you were last in town and saw the equipment there. Is this Sword of Light worth more than the equipment for sale in the shop? If not, can it be sold for a good chunk of money to buy the Sword of Mage's Bane in the shop you saw? Just another way to make money valuable. Making equipment rare enough that selling it is a major event.

    You need to create a series of systems that interlock and work together. A series of Gold Sinks and Gold Limitations. A series of items the players MUST BUY in order to keep the value of your Gold high.

    Unless... you don't want valuable Gold. That's something else you need to consider. What do you consider reasonable in your game? What do you consider valuable in your game? How quickly do you want players to upgrade their equipment? Every single new town they hit? Maybe there are two or three tier upgrades in a single town? How much grind do you want them to do nearby to obtain the last upgrade?

    Value is relative. You decide what it is depending on how you implement all your other systems. Loot. Combat. Healing. Dungeons. Quests.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  9. Kupotepo

    Kupotepo Fantasy realist Veteran

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    @Kes, ok. I have issued with the conventional stuff, sorry if I am crossing the line. I need some kind of random example to make sense lol.(I am seriously have no idea what her game about:rswt) Then, my answer to the first question would be like @Andar response.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  10. Wavelength

    Wavelength Pre-Merge Boot Moderator

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    It's possible, but unlikely, that your system will work well. Usually, there's some sort of exponential curve to the price of items of different tiers in games - for example: 100, 500, 2500, 12500, 62500, 312500, etc. This is done in many RPGs to prevent grinding a bunch of enemies from weaker tiers in order to buy the high-tier stuff, as well as (in some games) to make the final few tiers very hard to achieve, giving the player something to work towards if they want to play for a very long time.

    Ultimately, it's important to give the player enough money to buy everything they need, but not quite everything they want (unless they grind a bunch). You can take the number of encounters the player should expect to run into in an area, and multiply that by the average amount of money the player will earn in each encounter in that area, plus add the value of all the treasure chests you expect them to run into (and any other reliable sources of income), to figure out how much money you expect the player to earn in an area. Price your stuff for that area based on that - cheap enough so that the player can get everything they need; expensive enough so they can't get everything they want.
     
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  11. Kingdommangas

    Kingdommangas Veteran Veteran

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    :kaoslp:
    I never thonk this way this is very interesting. I start to work with equipment because I complete the number of this item in my database but it's quite logic to start with expendable.

    So you must have a good control in your money with this features :kaopride:

    Well I work in préconception of the money for now, it's not in the game yet and I don't have any monster yet XD
    I didnt find a document who talk about the subject so I create one.
    I'm aware that the curencie varied according to the money earn but I think of ajust how many a monster give according to shop.

    Yes and I think it's quite annoying to always check the equipment. XD Well that my taste

    In some game like Tales of Symphonia you can craft your new equipment with old one with a reduction of the price too besides the classic shop.
    This kind of feature help in the start of the game.

    In my case there is 7 regions to visits so 7 armors and weapons set + 1 final set.
    I calculate the real price the player paid for (total price of weapons + armors set) - the sold price of the old one - 1/4 of armor that you can find in chest.
    Besides that, my hero is treasure hunter so I add some valuable treasure to help buying new equipment.

    Yes I just noticed it too :kaosigh:
    When I calculate the real price for the player I find a constant so I rework on the initial calcul. I find a division per number of weapon but the final set cost the double of the previous so I adjust that for the moment.
     
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  12. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Wavelength : Play Dragon Quest sometimes. They use a system like what the OP lists for costs, at least Dragon Quest 8 did the last time I played it, and it works. It just requires balancing how you hand out money differently.
     
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  13. Wavelength

    Wavelength Pre-Merge Boot Moderator

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    The only DQ game I ever played was DQ3 (which I found exceedingly boring), and I've never liked many of the series' mechanics (personal item bags, guess-and-check weakness families, high RNG influence, etc.). So you'll have to just give me the executive summary on this one. :p How did DQ8 handle how they gave out money, and how did they avoid easy abuse cases where the player would grind low-level enemies and then have enough money to buy high-level gear?
     
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