More talk about bosses

[BurningOrca]

Recently I asked people what are their biggest "no goes" when it comes to boss design.
This time I'd like to read your opinions/thoughts about specific kinds of bosses:

Boss rushes: I cannot tell much about it, because I finished just one in my entire life in Mario & Luigi Bowsers Inside Story, but I really liked it. I think it is interesting to fight slightly more powerful versions of previous bosses one after another. Also I personally think this is much better then just fighting a power upped version of a single boss later in a game as it requires you to think ahead and have answer to all their patterns. You just can't focus only on the current fight.

Super bosses: I haven't fought many as they result often in just plain frustration, but my opinion is completely biased from what I have encountered or just heared so far.

What I really don't like: Stronger versions of the games final boss or any other boss of the game, with just more HP, stronger stats and same old attack patterns. Whenever I came across something like this I just let it defeat me, so I don't get bored over hours trying to defeat it. Also I don't like if they are cameo appearances from previous games of the same series.
I might like them at the end of a boss rush. It felt really great finally defeating that glitchi something at the end of Bowsers Inside Story Boss Rush.

What I am okay with: Completely new bosses that are not tight to story. As most of the time I just want to play the next game after finishing the main story I'd appreciate if they can be encountered during the story through some special means instead of a post game dungeon, but the worst thing is for me would be: "Hey here is a DLC or free game update with an incredible tough dungeon and a new super boss".

What I absolutely hate: When the super boss has instant death skills. Having wiggeled him down to 50% HP after maybe half an hour or longer and then suddenly my entire party gets wiped out by a single skill no matter how much grinding I did before, just because I didn't know it will be coming, having to do it all over again is just plain cheap. Luckily I haven't fought a single boss with such a skill yet.
So now you know I haven't played a single Final Fantasy game, yet. I just heared of how ridiculous some of this series bosses can be.

What I want to see more often: Super Bosses that are teased in the main story. Some NPCs just talking about this maybe really bad guy/girl or legendary creature/hero(in) or whatever. Then you can trigger a maybe very long side quest that gives more inside about this characters story and at the end of the quest fight him or her.

Also I personally think those bosses shouldn't be designed for just the most dedicated and experienced players, but as a challenge everyone could eventually overcome with just a little dedication. If they are really just pure frustration for most of the players except the most dedicated and experienced players I would rather call them Ultra Super Duper Bosses instead of Super Bosses.

True Final Bosses: Your about to finally face the games main baddy and suddenly through an unexpected event it turns out actually someone else is pulling the strings behind the scene and you fight this character instead. It can also be that it replaces the normal final boss, because of some optional stuff you did or because your are in NG+. Except of Disgaea 4's battle against God, which was pretty lame, I haven't experienced this yet, so I cannot give any real opinion on it.

So what are your thoughts about them?

 

[ShadowDragon]

I making one that fits the last one of the true final boss, but it's split into pieces
that become stronger as more HP. but also not that suer strong to takes hours to beat them,
just correctly balanced (I hoped) on what you have and what you gain ingame.

but while you cant enter the final boss (or I could that kills you in 1 hit) unless
you have the correct weapon/items to actually beat this boss.

in overal I dont mind how the boss are designed, but it should take to long to beat them.
around 10min maximum if possible, but it should fit the story and game as well.

every 20-25% that it change his attack or if you blast him with fire, he get an ability
so fire attacks are weak against him, so you need water after it or normal attacks.

not to low MP or TP for using skills or limited use (without using MP/TP) unless this makes
you to strong to use.

bad story line is something I hate and something I wont play.
Also a good adventure and some mini bosses as sidequests would be good
if the reward are nice or help you further in the story like a document you need
to continue because of the danger and is testing you.

 

[TheoAllen]

Before I pour my thought on this, I might as well as throw another question (if you don't mind).

What do you think of a boss that later in the game becomes a standard encounter?
Some hate it because they think the dev is lazy. But was it really the case?

 

[BurningOrca]

Before I pour my thought on this, I might as well as throw another question (if you don't mind).

What do you think of a boss that later in the game becomes a standard encounter?
Some hate it because they think the dev is lazy. But was it really the case?

I don't mind that. If a regular enemy from later on in the game can fulfill the task of testing what you've learned so far in the game, why not take it as a boss. Later on you just remember the struggels you've had with it back then, already know it's weaknesses, and beat it down easily. I think it's better then changing it's color and making it a boss again.

 

[Mystic_Enigma]

Before I pour my thought on this, I might as well as throw another question (if you don't mind).

What do you think of a boss that later in the game becomes a standard encounter?
Some hate it because they think the dev is lazy. But was it really the case?

I don't mind them as long as they are not aggravatingly tough, and reward something worthwile when you beat them. Megaman Battle Network had enemy NetNavis that might appear when you wander the net after clearing the story related to them. Most of the time they will become progressively stronger every time. Beating them rewards either money or their Battlechip.

If a Boss shows up as you wander and it's got like 5 times the HP and instant-KO moves, then THAT'S when you're doing it wrong!

 

[Cythera]

Boss Rushes: I've encountered a few of these, mostly in mobile hack-and-slash style games. I'm okay with them. They provide big exp boosts so I do use them. But they aren't exciting for me. I've memorized attacks and patterns, so they aren't challenging. If an entire game is boss rushes and not optional, will get bored. I believe this is a player's personal preference though, so opinions on this will likely be varied.
Super Bosses: Yes, provided...

• They aren't just massive hp sponges
• They fit somehow into the plot or world. They don't need a massive connection, put throwing in a random super boss two minutes outside a busy town seems...off. Even a quick mention from a townperson is fine - "living here is so stressful thanks for Big Scary Super Boss nearby."

On the topic of insta-death skills, no. No enemy should have these UNLESS it can be prevented, and the prevention is known. Some piece of a equipment, or as Pokemon does it with Sheer Cold, it has to pass a level check, then only has a 30% chance of landing.
Tre Final Bosses: Meh, if you pull a swith on me, I won't be happy but I'll do it. I spent all this time playing to beat the big bad. I have (hopefully) grown to despise them and all they do. I want to satisfaction of defeating THEM. On their actions. Not defeating some mindless puppet. Takes some of the savour of it for me to be honest.
Bosses that become encounters: If there is an acceptable reason for it, and they aren't the same strength level. If I defeat one of the Big Bad's minions, why is it back soon after, and as an encounter? AND he's the same strength?!
If it's a big boss monster and I later fight smaller monsters? Sure, maybe it's the big one's offspring!

 

[CraneSoft]

I'm gonna list alot of Final Fantasy examples here since well...they are my first RPGs.

Boss Rushes: I don't mind fighting them as long as they don't take too long. I do prefer facing "Guardians" (legitimate new bosses with boss-class strength but they serve to test you before the final boss) instead of old bosses however, FF8 and FF9 does it really well which make me disappointed the later games didn't had them.

Super Bosses: I assume this means "The strongest boss in the game", I expect them to at least look unique (and not recycled graphics of another boss), had some lore behind their existence, and is beatable without ludicrous amounts of grinding. I for one hate Final Fantasy super bosses because they break the above rules, are massive HP sponges, have instant-kill gimmicks, and/or just a complete luckfest. They are deliberately designed to be frustrating and I found zero satisfaction after killing them. Thankfully, some recent RPGMaker games I played revived my hopes that there can be genuinely good super bosses.

True Final Bosses: I actually love this one as long as it isn't a lame excuse to make the game abit longer, although it also heavily depends on the story structure. So the bad guy we are killing is just a puppet? I don't have a problem as long as you make it believable, and by believable I mean I want additional story segments to explain their involvement with the story, a new dungeon, or a whole story arc, not just a lazy "hijack the final boss" at the last minute. If you can convince me the true baddie is a bigger threat with significantly less buildup than the regular final boss, you're good. Unfortunately, not a lot of games do this, and the result is..."So what's the deal with this new bad guy anyway?" (Looking at FF9's Pepsiman)

Bosses that become encounters: FF9 does this by making the guardian bosses of the final dungeon into random encounters within the same dungeon's final segments while only nerfing their HP making them as dangerous as the originals but can also be dispatched quickly. I think that is pretty smart, and certainly gives first timers "Oh Crap" moments.

 

[RCXDan]

Had to catch this thread despite only being on my phone at the moment. Either way I have quite a few thoughts in terms of bosses:

Boss Rushes: I'm mixed on this one cause like, if done well it can be a sign of how far your characters have grown since they last fought these bosses. If done wrong (aka the bosses are fought only with inflated stats and nothing else) it's just a slog.

Super Bosses: require a lenient touch and creativity.

I see super bosses as special challenges unrestrained by the normal limits of a story fight, but this isn't an invitation to make them unreasonably overpowered.

I am willing to excuse a previous boss being reused as long as they change themselves in novel ways that don't require stat inflation. Like before they just hit hard, but now they need to be hit a certain amount of times to stop them from reviving their allies. The process is clearly spelled out and gives you time to strategize, to boot.

Though optimally I would want brand new bosses too. It's just more interesting and it's like "oh crap what am I dealing with?"

Instant death is cheap, and so are other overpowered moves being pulled out at random with no detectable, recognizable pattern or counters. It's the pits.

Having the super bosses as part of the world is definitely a thing you should do, and this also ties into the True Final Boss thing too: I'd love an explanation why this boss that dwarfs the final boss in power hadn't stepped in yet, or why it hasn't been a thing until now. Foreshadowing is definitely appreciated, like "hey at the bottom of that dungeon is something worse than anything you've fought. A God monster that was sealed away before it could destroy the world in the past. good thing you dont need to go there right?"

For example: in my game, you fight the [redacted] reaper, and she's no joke - her main gimmick is that she has different variations of instant death, but they're all extremely telegraphed and you're warned profusely to bring along instant death protection beforehand. I feel it's a fair compromise if the instant death is exclusively a counter to spamming strong moves, and not "kek you unlucky loser".

Degraded Bosses: if they're the same strength as before and you rip them like wet tissue paper, absolutely. That or they're a special roadblock with renewed purpose and tricks.

And now my own piece: no matter boss you're making, keep it short and sweet please.

I'm going to echo the HP sponge complaint because it's one I absolutely agree with.

I've found it way more satisfying to complete a boss at your own speed even if it takes time to practice... over a boss whose battle time is artificially bloated by something beyond your control, grinding (levelgating especially so) or simply dragging out a story or mechanic piece.

Long fights (10 min+) are at risk of blurring together, especially if not much actually happens beyond "spam your best moves to win".

 

[Wavelength]

I'm perfectly fine with repeat bosses, changed versions, promoted/demoted versions (from bosses to regular enemies and vice versa), boss rushes (as long as they don't last, in total, much longer than one regular boss), multi-stage bosses, and basically any other form and combination of bosses that designers want to use. All I ask from boss enemies is:

• Be interesting! The boss should have some sort of identity in its aesthetics and gameplay. A variety of different tactics (not just one) should be able to work against that gameplay identity.
• Be dynamic! The battle should feel different between the beginning, middle, and end, and should present a variety of situations along the way. The player should never fall into the same pattern against the boss for more than two turns. Force your player to improvise, and you'll never create the dreaded "HP Sponge".
• Be fair! No one-turn party wipes. No RNG-based one-hit kills. Only give the boss immunity to status effects that would reeeeeeally cheapen the battle.
• Be coherent! Avoid creating a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere - at least make the boss feel like it's a part of the dungeon/area where they're found, and ideally make them tie into the current story arc that your characters are living out.

 

[BreakerZero]

On the subject of boss rush scenarios, there are at least two ways one can go about doing this:

Unlockable trial: After completing at least a certain part of a game the bosses from that story arc (say, those of Sonic or Tails in the original Sonic Adventure) can be challenged for the best time in beating 'em up again.
Final test: You see this a lot in the Mega Man series where the primary bosses are rebuilt, copied or whatever the hell they did before you face Wiley, Sigma or whatever big bad applies for that generation of maverick robots.

In the case of my project I decided to go with the latter situation, and I have no interest in super bosses or even degrading the experience (unless of course it's related to the plot, like at the beginning when you basically get your ass kicked into the ground and nearly end up being left for dead over some false interpretation of destiny.) Obviously I would be making some exceptions if it's a sort of field boss encounter, but in general I would prefer to stay away from that if possible.

 

[YoraeRasante]

Most people I know dislike Boss Rushes.
While it is a good way to review past gimmicks, powers and strategies, it is also very overused and give a sense of lazyness, as if they just did not care much.
While the one in Chrono Trigger kinda works, since it is mostly explained in the story as the last boss learning from your past fights to learn to fight you better, most Megaman games, in all series, just put them there for tradition. Sure, it is nice to defeat the first bosses with just a few hits now that you have their weakness, but the others is just having to remember the pattern you already used against them. And not even much story context for them. And take a guess which of the two examples most games with a boss rush take inspiration from.

Super Bosses are mostly bragging rights for being able to defeat them and for those people that really enjoyed your game and the exclusive mechanics your game has and want to try themselves at the best challenge you can give them. Not for everyone, just a bonus, maybe put some side-lore in there as a small reward because most of the time the victory is the reward itself.

Stronger Versions But Unchanged, with no other difference but higher stats, are an annoyance, yes. Not just for bosses but for enemies too, the famous "palete swaps". If I have a blue slime and a red slime, I at least hope the red one has a special skill instead of "blue but a bit stronger". Only acceptable in well-done Boss Rushes because the first boss in the game would be easily destroyed by an endgame party otherwise.

The "Boss Not Tied to the Story" thing have a known trope name, "Giant Space Flea From Nowhere". Wavelength linked to it earlier. Named after Chrono Cross, a sequel to Chrono Trigger that was mostly spiritual, but they just had to add Lavos the giant space flea of CT to the end battles because it is Lavos. It may be a spoiler, but take a guess why the trope has that name.

Instant Death Skill Bosses... most I know of are some SMT/Persona Super Bosses that you can challenge as a side-challenge and if you try to use something to avoid having to use skill to defeat them, like an item to give you immunity to their special skills, you take one. Those ones are kinda fair, that keeps you from cheesing the challenge, needing actual skill to deal with them.
That said, some of them are too tough, the Demifiend in Digital Devil Saga's easiest path requiring a strategy mixing luck and lots of math that still takes a long time and is not certain to do it. Or Lucifer on Devil Survivor that can basically one-shot you after some turns thanks to his super skill getting stronger as turns pass so you kinda need to either be quick or slow him down a lot to have any hope. Final Fantasy 8's Omega Weapon you are kinda required to collect items to give you a few turns of invincibility!
They are a terrible Super Boss because of how limited the ways to defeat them are, but also a point of pride to be able to do it even with a guide so... mission accomplished-ish?

Story-Mentioned Super Bosses are the best. You hear about this super being but has no real reason to go looking for it, having to go out of your way to hunt hints. Most Super Bosses are only mentioned by npcs, or found by luck (bad luck in most cases since you are not prepared). Too bad so few games I know of add them.

True Final Bosses on the other hand are so common they are expected at this point, even if you have to do some extra task to get an alternate, true ending. At least if the proper hints are in the game that it exists and not an out-of-nowhere final twist (looking at you, Zelda TP), it is... ok. At this point it is more surprising if the final boss was really the final boss...

Bosses Returning As Mob... depends. If at first it was supposed to be this megaweapon, story-related or something that needs a big explanation, but if it was just a superstrong enemy it is just a sign that what once gave you problems now is easy to take. Needs to be worked properly to not be an annoyance though. Like in DMC3, the boss of the second level later returns unchanged, and sometimes you have to even fight two, but at that point you are expected to be much more skilled to the point it is just a tough mob leader. In fact, replaying the game from a new file shows the first fight was only a big deal because it had an hp bar and you were only being kicked aroung like a ragdoll because you still had no idea what you were doing yet, it is still just a strong normal enemy with a better presentation. Now that you know how it works you can rip it apart just as easily as when fighting them in the final stages.

Long Bosses are a pain. No matter how interesting the gameplay, they can get tiring quickly.
Problem is, big developers seem to not get this. Monster Hunter gets a pass in this, it has almost hour long bosses, true, but the whole game is based on fighting the bosses, that is the deal, and the stronger ones are even multiplayer meaning it is also about cooperating with friends which makes it much better... But Final Fantasy XV had developers bragging about the boss that would take hours to defeat, over ten if I remember right, and it is a single player game! Who asked for this? People may have asked for a hard boss, not a long damage sponge one!

 

[Alador]

On your super boss death skill thing... Ever played Kingdom Hearts? Because if you have, you'll know that you have to fight the final boss four times in a row without saving! That's basically a super boss death skill, and it sounds like it's the same kind of annoying as a super boss death skill, too.

 

[YoraeRasante]

I disagreee, I think it is more like a poorly-made multi-phase boss fight that overstays its welcome.
A better KH example would be the super boss in neverland. It gives you Doom right at the start of battle, something I never saw in any other battle in that game as far as I recall. The secret to surviving? Using Stop to freeze the countdown, something that I don't remember ever being doable anywhere else either. Only found out this was possible later online, and by that point KH2 was out and I was already fighting Sephiroth there to try to 100% so I could see the extra movie without needing to finish in hard (proud) mode.

 

[TheoAllen]

I almost forgot about this thread. I don't play many games to have many references regarding bosses. But lemme try.

Boss Rushes:
If it's an optional separate game mode, I don't mind. I probably won't be spending my time on them very much though.

Super Bosses:
That depends on how 'super' is this boss. But just like many bosses, if I fail, I should know where I did wrong.

A boss that becomes a standard encounter:
I don't mind, as long as it is an early boss. It serves as an "Introduction" on how the mid-end game could be. And it gives the feeling on how you have progressed through the game.

A stronger version of the same boss:
I like this. This always makes me excited to see how the same boss evolves to become stronger. The stronger version of bosses should have a new mechanic, not just stat bump without something new to introduce. Like, "Did you know that Mega-Flame that triggers at 50% HP? It becomes Giga-Flame now that it could wipe your party if you did not cast a party-wide barrier!".

In my opinion, this could make the boss more memorable. Even better if the game has a community. "Eh, that version of the boss is nothing. Try the harder one and you will know our suffering" kind of stuff.

What I don't like:
As with everyone, my biggest no-goes is the state immunity, rivaled with HP sponges at the second rank. The state immunity renders some skill redundant while HP sponge is just stat check if I have a better stat, it could be faster, but still boring. What qualified as HP sponge is just when I know I will win, it just takes longer than necessary.

An exception to state immunity could be made when a certain boss just immune to a few states. So you couldn't use a specific strat for some bosses. Just don't make all the boss have the same immunity.

The third-ranking would be stat check boss. When the pattern is boring but it hits hard. Nothing interesting to watch out, your stat is just suck, you can't do it without proper gear and all. Granted, I'm an avid grinder so this does not exactly a problem, I just grind.

What I don't mind:
A boss that has nothing related to the story. I have a segmentation to enjoy the story and enjoy the gameplay. Immersion is not a big deal for me. There are a lot of immersion-breaking in games, adding unrelated bosses in the lore is just like pouring water to the ocean.

What I absolutely hate:

• An RNG-based mechanic that instant-kill or almost instant kill you with no warning or pattern to watch out.
• Or a boss that needs a guide-dang-it to beat.
• Or a boss that you would need a specific kind of setup to beat and you missed a necessary item to beat the boss, or simply you picked a wrong skill tree and you got a bad matchup against the boss.
• Or when I don't know how successful I'm to beating the boss, like when I just keep hitting them but I don't seem to progress. No damage popup confirming that I at least deal damage and/or when no HP displayed, the boss still standing alright despite I've shot their head literally 100 times.
• EDIT: Or when the FIRST boss introduced after 7 hours into the game. At that time I thought the game has no boss so I didn't prepare for it and it wrecked me the heck out of it.

What I want to see more:
I honestly don't know. Just give me some creative pattern for the boss encounter. Or at least that always keeps me on toes.

True Final Boss:
If this boss unlocked because you did something in the game and if I didn't do it because I don't know and I couldn't fix it because I've passed to the point of no return, then it sucks. If it's locked behind a new game+, it also sucks because I don't play a new game+. If the true final boss is just someone pulling the string in the story perspective, I don't mind.

 

[BreakerZero]

I probably should've mentioned a thing or so on my position regarding a true final boss. As of now I have it set to where there's actually a curse on who you think is the big bad, only to learn during the final sequence that someone believes himself the true God of all, the one who's actually responsible, the one with the sole authority to smite those who desecrate His order, and He who levels unforgivable sin upon a complete lack of worth in His presence (which as you probably know by now is just your typical evil badass bulls***).

Also, this is not locked behind anything - it just happens, though if you do a bit of research you'll find plenty of hints (even as early as in one of the first towns) in that something wicked says it don't all add up. (I have yet to decide on anything further in this, however - but I promise that if I do that it can activate at any time without consequence if you know where to look.)

 

[Frostorm]

What exactly constitutes a "Super Boss"? Is it just a really hard boss/encounter? Or did you have some specific definition in mind?

For "Boss Rushes" are you referring to consecutive boss battles one after another? If so, I'd say it depends if you are allowed to rest in between, or perhaps you meant consecutive bosses within the same encounter (w/o a break). Or are you referring to the "Boss Rush" genre of games? (e.g. Furi, Cuphead, or Shadow of the Colossus)

I dislike insta-kill, especially if its RNG based. If it is telegraphed and counterable, then I am ok w/ it.

I am also ok w/ bosses getting stronger as the fight progresses, so long as it is within reason. They serve as a level/stat/gear check for the player. Emphasis on not making it too absurd tho.

If a boss is reoccuring in a game, it should be more than just a stat increase and/or recolor. I like them to have an additional skill or mechanic to differentiate the boss from the first time you encountered it.

As for bosses becoming regular mobs later in the game, I'd say this is best done when it makes sense story wise. Otherwise it just feel lazy.

 

[YoraeRasante]

@staf00 in the context, I took it as a bonus boss, one you can fight as a side quest or visiting an extra dungeon but nothing in the world stops you from continuing and finishing the game without meeting them;

 

[BreakerZero]

I decided that I was gonna do it. I added a hidden area which throws basically every (non-boss) enemy in the game at you, with the goal of destroying the corruption that once held to someone who had to pay his dues to society as a result of your first encounter with him (and what he did to deserve it). This exposes a rumor regarding an even greater force than the initially-unnamed associate of the darkness that you think is at the root of the problems, and after you beat said associate the rumor proves true and the real final boss shows up. Also, if you don't complete this seemingly-"optional" objective you get a Sonic-style "challenge yourself" screen informing that you didn't complete the required side quest.

 

[Kes]

Also, if you don't complete this seemingly-"optional" objective

This comes perilously close to saying to the player that you lied to them. Something is presented as optional, but then you discover it isn't. I suspect that I am not the only player who would be seriously hacked off by that. If something is required don't pretend that it's not.

 

[BreakerZero]

That will be handled in due time - I just don't know where that will be just yet. Again, this happens a lot in Sonic games where you could technically beat Eggman without the power of raw chaos at your disposal. But once you realize that it's technically not an optional objective and you actually collect the seven emeralds, you unlock either a special cutscene or a hidden boss at the end (along with a more satisfying conclusion to the game). Also, the NPC that you do this for in my project's case will let you in on what drove him mad and caused him to turn on his community, which in turn will unlock the real final boss when the time comes once you complete the final, hidden area where he reveals the truth.

EDIT: I also drop a hint in the scene where he initially asks you to do this - specifically in that after he's talked out of self-sacrifice by his sister, the authorities decide to cut slack if he repays his debts to the community, and this is quite literally how you go about doing so.