More than 999 maps in a project

Would you like this feature?


  • Total voters
    177

Shade Aurion

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My project is already at 120 maps for the first continent. First of 6 not including secret areas and random islands and other worldly areas. I'm actually started making much larger maps to save on map number to cater to this as ill likely be pushing the 999 limit.
 

LTN Games

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I'm curious what some of these maps look like and will look forward to someone finally breaking the limit. We shall see I guess.
 

Shade Aurion

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Well this is what they're going to have to look like from now on.


This is unfinished (obviously) but normally these would be 6 separate maps (which would have been better as I could have different tile set layers) but i'll have to start cramming maps together to keep from approaching the limit. Especially near the end of my project. I'll also blow through a fair few maps on past and present versions of maps and standard and ruined versions of towns. They go pretty fast =/
 

lianderson

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There´s a map limit? Wow, I didn't know that. (is currently at 476)
 

Tea's Jams

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Hmm, I didn't think I was going to have to worry about this, but I already have 110 maps with only two cities built and a few houses in between...
I hope it doesn't become a problem later. (@Shade Aurion I like what you did with that cave map, I may have to follow suit.)
 

ChampX

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I voted no.

I don't see any real reason to have more than 1,000 maps. If you really need more, you can either do one of two things.

-Squeeze a bunch of small interior maps on a bigger map and keep them far enough from one another that you don't visibly see them. This can work with interiors of a town for example all being on the same map. Even just squeezing two interiors into one map each time would cut down your interior maps by half. This could have potential issues of lag I suppose on legacy hardware if your maps are too big so you'd have to measure.

-Make one map of something common like a shop that will 90% look the same and use events and/or scripts to dynamically determine the NPC's, shop contents, and exit point based on which map you came in from. Pokemon Centers in Pokemon games I know do this where you have only one Pokemon Center map but based on where you entered it from determines the minor differences you see giving the illusion of being different as opposed to 15 different maps where 90% of the content is identical.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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TBH I feel like setting a higher limit might just make people add more maps without the real need for it.

You enter a town and have 6 shops. Put them all on one map. When people put each location into a new map, that's when the limit break of maps would be needed.
I did this before, I also changed the BGM depending on where you came from so that it would seem like the shops are all in different maps. The only time I think this wouldn't be possible is if someone is making a BIG shop, but I doubt it will be fun for a player to go in a very big shop (we hate walking a lot just to do something simple).

Unless you're doing a really really really big and ambitious project I don't see you needing even all those 999. Theoretically, it's easy to implement but I really doubt it will be that helpful and I feel like the limit being just 999 makes people be more creative and mindful about how they go with their game so I voted no.
 

ChampX

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Even if the map limit is bumped up to say 10,000, you would eventually have users wanting to raise that cap again.

You may ask, who would ever need that many maps? That said the same applies to who would need 1,000 maps and with older engines (not necessarily RM) where map limitations may not have even been 100 and thinking that the increase to something like 1,000 would be far more than anyone would probably need. The cycle just repeats.

You got to draw the line somewhere and decide where the sweet spot is and I think the current count is not too low where you have to hack every map to be dynamic in all sorts of way to appear like different maps but not too big where the average developer only use a small fraction of the maximum.
 

Poryg

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I have already seen a game that has over 1000 maps. It's Laxius power 3 on RM2000. 1 and 2 had also huge amount of maps, but well, not as many (1 had about 600 and 2 had 970 if I remember correctly). But truth is, Laxius power 3 maps were beautiful. They had flaws like unnecessary openness and squared interiors, but they were very nicely done. The only thing where the game was real crap was game balance.
So I think that the maps depend on the people. If someone doesn't want to put too much work in it, then he will never do it. But if someone really cares about the game, then he will work on the maps, even if there are 1000 of them.
Nevertheless, I'm voting for Yes, but not important.
 

Tai_MT

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Like some of the other people, I see no reason to increase a map Limit to over 999. High map counts to me, usually indicate a lack of focus, a lack of understanding in mapping in general, and probably a lack of quality of any (or a majority) of the maps.

My personal project, which is slated to consist of four phases (or maybe five, depending on if things change as I go along) isn't looking to be more than 300 total maps at the moment. I've got two versions of my "overworld" which exist for cutscenes. I've got 4 maps for each of the individual "hubs" within the game. I've got one for each interior building (roughly 5-10 a building). I've got areas that exist purely for Questing and the Main Story, which is something like 5 maps a location... with only 15 maps in my first area (not sure if I'll need more or less for subsequent hub areas), I'm really only pushing an extra 45 maps. I'm looking at less than 100 per hub area. And each hub area is meant to provide something akin to 4-6 hours of gameplay (no guarantee as of yet).

Even with a 100 hour game, I cannot imagine using many more than 500 maps in the maker. It's all in how you use them and whether or not you're having map transitions in dungeons... for the sake of having map transitions. Do you really need to have a dozen or more 15x17 maps in a dungeon? Without much going on in those dungeon maps (like say... EVENTS) you could probably stretch a good chunk of those out to sweeping 100x100 maps if the dungeon was large enough. Likely wouldn't even produce lag during gameplay, so long as there aren't a lot of events on said map.

I don't know, anyone hitting that 999 mark, in my opinion, seems very much like they don't know what they're doing with the maker.

Now, if people are creating 250 hour epic games (which I highly freakin' doubt), we might have an argument for "more maps!". But, as it stands now... when the biggest issue any RM game currently has is the "lack of quality"... I hesitate to let the maker allow devs to make more of that quality of content.

I think I'm more inclined to vote "yes" on "quality of life" type improvements of the makers and the return of several of their missing features over the years. Or... maybe just much better Help Files that explain things in more detail (or at all).

I'm not opposed to "more maps". I just don't think it's necessary at all. If they put in more maps, it wouldn't bother me at all. But people using all 999? That puts up red flags for me in terms of their games and what the quality of those games might actually be.
 

Fornoreason1000

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thought i might add that the 999 maps is an editor limitation , not an engine limitation. you could make a plugin that will let you load more than 999 maps. I'd make it myself if 999 wasn't already an absurd number for my project.

I'd wager it might be doable without plugins! Lets see!

something like this
2- open a new instance of MV and create a new project, lets call it "MapFactory" for reference.
3- import your relevant tile set and make sure to match its tile set ID to the one in your main Project.
4-create your map (map 1000) and save.
5-navigate to the data folder of "MapFactory" and rename it to Map1000.json.
7-copy and paste into the "data" Folder of your main project. notice how MV ignores this file?
8. now the ID of the map is stored in MapInfos.Json, were going to need that data. we can't just paste in map Infos because MV will overwrite it.
9.folder create a new file called MapInfoEx.Json, this file will contain all maps Information above 999.
10. locate MapInfos.json in the MapFactory Data folder and open it.
11. copy the line that was used with your map1000. in this case our ID would be 1.
becuase it was the first map created in MapFactory.
12. paste that line in MapInfosEx.json.
13- Vanilla database won't load it automatically, so you will need to load its data manually with a script call.
and regrettably we can't create global vars with script calls. so we will be forced to create a plugin. or append $dataMap;
lets try the latter.
14. this script call will let you load maps with an id greater than 999, be sure to call it when the game starts. sooner the better.
Code:
var BML_DataManager_loadMapData = DataManager.loadMapData;
DataManager.loadMapData = function(mapId) {
if(madId > 999) {
var filename = 'Map%1.json'.format(mapId.padZero(4));
this._mapLoader = ResourceHandler.createLoader('data/' + filename, this.loadDataFile.bind(this, '$dataMap', filename));
this.loadDataFile('$dataMap', filename);
} else {
BML_DataManager_loadMapData.call(this,mapId);
}
};
15. this script call will append $dataMapInfos. again sooner the better.
Code:
DataManager.loadDataFile('$dataMapInfos', "maps/MapInfosEx.json");
16. you transfer to the maps with this script call. Transfer Player event commands will not work on maps in the 1000 - Infnity range.
Code:
$gamePlayer.reserveTransfer(1000, x, y, direction, fadetype);
if you need reference to the other values check out this
17. done!!
Note: this is just a rough algorithm i came up when typing this. script calls may be buggy but the principal is the same. I realize that this violates the golden rule that database values should not be modified run time. The can be overcome very simply by making a plugin that declares new variables and aliasing some simple functions. This method still has a limit of 9999 maps... im not sure who needs more than 10k maps but the limit is easily bypassed by naming Map1000.json to Map01000.json and changing the "4" on line 4 to a "5" in the first script call. this cycle repeats to a near infinite number of maps. (well the real limit would be 9007199254740991)



Update. Got it working see screenshot. also found out can add global vars using "DataManager.loadDataFile" , it will create a global var :). this was a heck of lot less work than a thought. 3 scriptcalls and cope' de pasta and that's it.

BreakingTheMapLimit.png
 
Last edited:

Shade Aurion

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I voted no.

I don't see any real reason to have more than 1,000 maps. If you really need more, you can either do one of two things.

-Squeeze a bunch of small interior maps on a bigger map and keep them far enough from one another that you don't visibly see them. This can work with interiors of a town for example all being on the same map. Even just squeezing two interiors into one map each time would cut down your interior maps by half. This could have potential issues of lag I suppose on legacy hardware if your maps are too big so you'd have to measure.

-Make one map of something common like a shop that will 90% look the same and use events and/or scripts to dynamically determine the NPC's, shop contents, and exit point based on which map you came in from. Pokemon Centers in Pokemon games I know do this where you have only one Pokemon Center map but based on where you entered it from determines the minor differences you see giving the illusion of being different as opposed to 15 different maps where 90% of the content is identical.

Just my 2 cents.
Many newbie creators wouldn't know how to set scripts or events to use the same map so that would only be viable for experienced users and anyone that intends to make a decent length game is going to approach the 1000 mark. You can't just use the same map for everything without first limiting the tile sets to being the same. For instance, in my above example, I would've loved to have had a few different layers in my cave levels but I can't as i'm trying to save space. Sure 999 is fine for people who only intent to make a 1-6 hour game but for anyone else making something bigger its a worrisome reality and frankly unnecessary.

Here is the real question. What is the downside of having a higher limit for those who don't need it?
Pssst, the answer is nothing ;)
 
Last edited:

bgillisp

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@Shade Aurion : 1 - 6 hour? How do you figure? I hit 20 hours in my game with ~300 maps. So, no, you can do a 60 hour game with the current limit.
 

Andar

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Here is the real question. What is the downside of having a higher limit
actually there are downsides to it - but indirectly, not directly.

you need content to fill maps, and more maps need more content. Creating that content (instead of just placing big empty maps (especially empty maps done with the map generator) will take time - If I remember correctly bgillisp spend several years to get those 20 hours of play into 300 maps (or about 10 minutes playing time per map). And a 10-minute playing time per map should be the minimum unless you're making very small maps.

Most people who work with the RMs simply can't create that much content (especially not if they're beginners), so making them think about what they're doing is better than letting them run ahead with a project they can never finish.
And unfortunately, there are already too many abandoned projects out there.

So no, technically there is no problem increasing the map limit (although games with large numbers of maps have problems being deployed to limited-storage-mobiles).
But in the way of quality control it is better to keep people at 999 maps.
 

bgillisp

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@Andar : You're right. I started the project in June of 2014. So, been three years so far.
 

Tai_MT

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Many newbie creators wouldn't know how to set scripts or events to use the same map so that would only be viable for experienced users and anyone that intends to make a decent length game is going to approach the 1000 mark. You can't just use the same map for everything without first limiting the tile sets to being the same. For instance, in my above example, I would've loved to have had a few different layers in my cave levels but I can't as i'm trying to save space. Sure 999 is fine for people how only intent to make a 1-6 hour game but for anyone else making something bigger its a worrisome reality and frankly unnecessary.

Here is the real question. What is the downside of having a higher limit for those who don't need it?
Pssst, the answer is nothing ;)
Maybe this is going to sound like me being a complete jerk... But, I can't, for the life of me, figure out how 999 maps only equals 6 hours of content. At that point, you've got to be doing something horribly wrong in your game design. Something like that makes me worry very much about the quality of your own game.

Before I dropped on into MV, I had roughly 3 hours of content in my game on VX Ace. I'd worked roughly a year to get that much content (I didn't do a whole lot of game design, so it was probably more like 2 months of actual work). What I'd been doing was mapping, mostly, and setting up Quests (and ignoring my Database entirely). I had roughly 15 maps. Vast majority of those maps were for cutscene or house interiors. I had five or so Quests up and running (no skills to use) and about a dozen monsters to fight (a little over 25 total weapons that could be used to fight them).

But, 15 maps for 3 hours of actual content. Lots to explore, plenty of treasure to be had, five Quests to run, maybe 10 levels to gain (if you cared about gaining levels). The actual quality of that exploration and Questing was probably pretty low (since 3 hours of content across so few maps seems like the hallmark of low quality seeing as how you were backtracking across a Hub World quite a bit), but that amount of content could be done on limited map usage.

Starting over on MV, I haven't transferred anything from VX Ace forward (I liked the idea of a completely fresh start to fix most of my newbie mistakes). While I've started with the Database this time and haven't done anything except create TWO maps in game (one is the world map, used for cutscenes and lore purposes, the other is a BETA Test Map which will be deleted once I finish the game), I've got folders set aside for the previous maps in the last version of the maker. I'm sitting on roughly 28 maps currently and the ability to add in Questlines on those maps right this very moment if I chose to. In fact, current plans for my Demo place me at somewhere around 5 hours of content (if I can manage) and about 55 maps (rough estimate, I may get creative as I go along and add more... or find ways to have less).

I'm not even trying to limit map usage, since mapping is one of the things I really love doing. I just naturally "cut the fat" out of my games and eliminate unnecessary "screens" and "maps". I try to remove unnecessary things because why waste my time working on something a player isn't going to interact with much? Why waste time making a bunch of small maps that a player will walk through once and never see again? I'd rather a player spend several minutes walking through a map (or revisiting an existing map) so that my work on said map gets the maximum exposure possible. If a player walks through a map in two minutes and never comes back to it... I have to ask myself, "Is that map really necessary? Was any of that work really necessary since they won't be coming back and likely won't even remember it?"

I appreciate the 999 limit, I just can't see actual game devs hitting that limit without doing something horrifyingly wrong in their own game. Do I mind if that limit is bigger? Not for practicality, no. If a dev legitimately needs over 999 total maps, then it's good for them. The problem is, the vast majority of even AAA titles today don't even use 999 maps. So, hitting the limit is frankly absurd. For me, having more than 999 maps is a red flag in the QA (Quality Assurance) department. It typically means the person making a game has no idea what they were doing and probably has a lot of default 17x13 maps in there for no reason other than they couldn't make a map smaller and it didn't need to be that big to begin with. Lots of screen transitions tend to wear on a player. A "screen transition" is kind of a mental "reset the brain" for many players. You take this small moment to relax and file the last map away into memory (if you do this... I do... not sure about other players) and "clean the slate" to begin the next map. Each transition marks the place of "seeing something new". With a ton of transitions in a frequent manner with nothing "new" to see on each map... just more of the same... It wears on you as a player. You begin to feel like the game is a slog. You begin to feel that while it has a lot of content, that content is as deep as a mud puddle.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I have to get ready for work.
 

Hudell

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Well, I'm completely against this and every other virtual limit of the editor. Even if I never reach the map limit, I've already hit the max number of common events.
EVEN if a higher number of maps meant a game is bad (which it doesn't), people should be allowed to make bad games if they want. Specially when this limit is just a random number that if increased would have absolutely no effect on anyone else's game.
 

SamJones

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Maybe this is going to sound like me being a complete jerk... But, I can't, for the life of me, figure out how 999 maps only equals 6 hours of content. At that point, you've got to be doing something horribly wrong in your game design. Something like that makes me worry very much about the quality of your own game.
You do not sound like a complete jerk. At 6 hours of content for 999 maps you have 21.6 seconds of content per map. On average.
 

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EVEN if a higher number of maps meant a game is bad (which it doesn't), people should be allowed to make bad games if they want.
Right on @Hudell !

This quote above IS the point.

Even though I doubt I will hit the 999 map limit, if this limit is in fact arbitrary (and by arbitrary I mean it can be picked and/or changed easily) whether or not people abandon their games is simply irrelevant.

The opinion that by limiting the number of maps a person uses will somehow improve the finish/quality rates is completely absurd, in my opinion. (not trying to offend anyone, I respect your right to your opinion and I hope you respect my right to think your opinion is absurd :p )

There's actually a term for this (aforementioned absurd notion) in manufacturing, it's called micromanagement, and micromanagement NEVER proves useful, in fact in most cases it's downright counter productive. Here's a possible example of that. Dude (or dudette) want's to make a game that is is definitely out of the box thinking (as most of the best games are) to accomplish this wild idea of theirs, they need to be able to create a ridiculous amount of maps in their game. Dude (or dudette) would love to use RPG Maker MV (since they are a fan) Buttttt, MV lacks the capability they need so they have to use a different engine. Game is a huge success and put's THE OTHER ENGINE more on the map.... (counter productive to rpg maker marketing and sales)

So, why risk loosing that one game, for the mistaken view (my opinion) that someone is going to save the day by micromanaging developer latitude through limiting maps? Who cares is 1,000 people abandon their games? Who cares if I bought RPG Maker for the sole purpose of making and then abandoning games? Who's business is it other than mine?

So, even though I highly doubt I would use more than 999 maps in any game I make, I firmly believe such a limit is absurd, arbitrary, and counter productive overall.

That's my opinion, and... you know what they say about opinions and butt holes...
 

bgillisp

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Point taken. It's just I think there are higher priority fixes right now, which is why I voted yes but not important. Then again, I can't see fixing the map limit taking more than 2 - 4 lines of code honestly, as usually those are enforced with an if statement:

IF: Map # > 999
then: Do something to stop the map from being created.

So it should be as simple as removing the if check, or replacing 999 with the upper limit of the OS.
 

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