"More than a game"

[Clord]

I know that back in eighties etc this would have sound really absurd but, I feel that there are games that are more than just games, they're worlds, experiences etc.


To explains myself better, I have played this game known as Dark Souls II and I truly felt like I "got it." It truly gives context to when Dark Souls series lovers tell the "haters" how they don't get it when they criticize those games gameplay, etc.


It feels more of an actual world than a game when not dealing with the interfaces it has.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

I think anyone who has involved themselves with gaming will realize they've always been more than toys, even back in the 70s and 80s. While "it was fun" or "I liked it" should be valid enough answers to why you spend your time doing something, if you ask yourself similarly why you've listened to a song or watched a film you'll probably mention some way it connected to you.

In the public eye, when something is new it isn't uncommon for it to be met with a skepticism at first. And in the grand scheme of things, video games are still rather new. Many of the things we consider prolific works of art today were often met with sneering gazes and confusion when they were first made back in their day.

 

[Marsigne]

Of course; like movies are stories, games can be a medium of communication where you show real life values, scenarios, etc. As it have been shown as stories in the past, you can tell a story through movies or games and have impact value (as with stories in the past, as I've said). Have you found a story that certain situations make you learn and/or reflect about real life (as it've been done in the past, third time I say)? Same with movies? Same with games. In my cinematic scenes, while I show lighthearted content, I I've shown real life reflections, like "Friendship - A Powerful Thing". Which is really nice to do

 

[Ramiro]

Hey, games are games, games are a wonderful tool for learning and to explore many aspect you can't do otherwise.

Being a game is an awesome thing on itself, you don't need to be "more", maybe people just think games as sothing "silly" but they aren't.

This not only applies to video games, this works for every game ever made.

People like me, start to learn things like English just because our games weren't translated into spanish, for example.

 

[Marsigne]

Hey, games are games, games are a wonderful tool for learning and to explore many aspect you can't do otherwise.

Being a game is an awesome thing on itself, you don't need to be "more", maybe people just think games as sothing "silly" but they aren't.

This not only applies to video games, this works for every game ever made.

Yep

People like me, start to learn things like English just because our games weren't translated into spanish, for example

Hahaha, good times, I remember in my ps2 playing "Midnight Club 3" online and saying someone "her" (when it was him), and he said: "it's him", then I said: "it's the same thing", then he said: "no it's not" hahahaha. And yeah, games did exposition to us to the English, so what would be our language level without games? (it's not the only factor but IS a factor, at least for me xD )

 

[Vox Novus]

That's what happens with a properly developed setting and the dialogue and characters to back it up; that coupled with increasingly advanced graphics makes things seem more alive than ever. Of course the big difference between games and other story telling mediums (books, movies...) are that they are interactive making the player feel like they are actually in the world. Imagine what it will be like when virtual reality games can really be pulled off to that level of precision and success (and people have actually died playing world of warcraft non-stop).

On a side note I literally just got Dark souls II.

 

[Marsigne]

That's what happens with a properly developed setting and the dialogue and characters to back it up; that coupled with increasingly advanced graphics makes things seem more alive than ever. Of course the big difference between games and other story telling mediums (books, movies...) are that they are interactive making the player feel like they are actually in the world. Imagine what it will be like when virtual reality games can really be pulled off to that level of precision and success (and people have actually died playing world of warcraft non-stop).

On a side note I literally just got Dark souls II.

There's lots of truth here! And yeah, games being interactive means that they can be even more immersed into the situations and things

 

[TherainED]

On a side note I literally just got Dark souls II.

I'd recomend you to get DS1 first in case you haven't, because (save from the DLCs) DS2 lacks a lot of things that were abundant in DS1 and even Bloodborne.

That multiplayer, tho.

In any case, returning back to the topic, is clear that games are most than games. They were decades ago, before that, and they are still today.

fricking Transistor should be in a museum right alongside so many other works.

Issue: A lot of people, even among gamers, think that's not an actual thing. And I quite understand the reason. Because when a company makes a videogame out of a marvellous work of art, a pinnacle of occidental literature, such as the Divine Comedy, and makes it a game about blood and tits like that was a serious game and not an over-the-top joke videogames do so much these days...it kinda makes you loose faith in humanity a little.

Games can be art. Saying that games are art is a statement that lacks a deep knowledge about the state of the gaming industry. And I am not talking about companies. I genuinely do believe that most of the BS companies are pulling out nowadays comes as a consecuence of the young age of games as a media.

Movies have been around for more than a century, photography as well, and I am not even gonna mention painting and literature. All those disciplines are a media that have come to understand themselves. They have come to achieve a perception of what's artistic and what's not, and that's a thing that comes through time.

One of the big examples I can offer about this is sexuality in videogames. Something that usually equals "tits hitting the player from left and right". Sexuality in other forms of art...well, just look at Rubens, at the David by Michelangelo.

The industry, companies and players, have to achieve a different understanding of a lot of concepts that are seen as inmature or menial nowadays, before we can actually start talking about games, as a whole, as art.

BTW, when I say media I refer to "method of communication, whether it transmits an information, feelings or concepts".

 

[9tkitsune]

Hey, games are games, games are a wonderful tool for learning and to explore many aspect you can't do otherwise.

Being a game is an awesome thing on itself, you don't need to be "more", maybe people just think games as sothing "silly" but they aren't.

This not only applies to video games, this works for every game ever made.

People like me, start to learn things like English just because our games weren't translated into spanish, for example.

ehh, in many countries, games are legally categorized as "toys" - which leads to the whole nasty trouble of censorship and some games not even being released in some countries. personally, i don't find it correct, that games / videogames are (children's)'toys' by law.  it doesn't give the medium the credit it deserves.

 

[Marsigne]

In any case, returning back to the topic, is clear that games are most than games. They were decades ago, before that, and they are still today.

fricking Transistor should be in a museum right alongside so many other works.

Issue: A lot of people, even among gamers, think that's not an actual thing. And I quite understand the reason. Because when a company makes a videogame out of a marvellous work of art, a pinnacle of occidental literature, such as the Divine Comedy, and makes it a game about blood and tits like that was a serious game and not an over-the-top joke videogames do so much these days...it kinda makes you loose faith in humanity a little.

Games can be art. Saying that games are art is a statement that lacks a deep knowledge about the state of the gaming industry. And I am not talking about companies. I genuinely do believe that most of the BS companies are pulling out nowadays comes as a consecuence of the young age of games as a media.

Movies have been around for more than a century, photography as well, and I am not even gonna mention painting and literature. All those disciplines are a media that have come to understand themselves. They have come to achieve a perception of what's artistic and what's not, and that's a thing that comes through time.

One of the big examples I can offer about this is sexuality in videogames. Something that usually equals "tits hitting the player from left and right". Sexuality in other forms of art...well, just look at Rubens, at the David by Michelangelo.

The industry, companies and players, have to achieve a different understanding of a lot of concepts that are seen as inmature or menial nowadays, before we can actually start talking about games, as a whole, as art.

BTW, when I say media I refer to "method of communication, whether it transmits an information, feelings or concepts".

Totally true. Actually, there is a reason I said:

Of course; like movies are stories, games can be a medium of communication where you show real life values, scenarios, etc.

And your post is basically like mine but explained xD

 

[trouble time]

I'd recomend you to get DS1 first in case you haven't, because (save from the DLCs) DS2 lacks a lot of things that were abundant in DS1 and even Bloodborne.

That multiplayer, tho.

In any case, returning back to the topic, is clear that games are most than games. They were decades ago, before that, and they are still today.

fricking Transistor should be in a museum right alongside so many other works.

Issue: A lot of people, even among gamers, think that's not an actual thing. And I quite understand the reason. Because when a company makes a videogame out of a marvellous work of art, a pinnacle of occidental literature, such as the Divine Comedy, and makes it a game about blood and tits like that was a serious game and not an over-the-top joke videogames do so much these days...it kinda makes you loose faith in humanity a little.

Games can be art. Saying that games are art is a statement that lacks a deep knowledge about the state of the gaming industry. And I am not talking about companies. I genuinely do believe that most of the BS companies are pulling out nowadays comes as a consecuence of the young age of games as a media.

Movies have been around for more than a century, photography as well, and I am not even gonna mention painting and literature. All those disciplines are a media that have come to understand themselves. They have come to achieve a perception of what's artistic and what's not, and that's a thing that comes through time.

One of the big examples I can offer about this is sexuality in videogames. Something that usually equals "tits hitting the player from left and right". Sexuality in other forms of art...well, just look at Rubens, at the David by Michelangelo.

The industry, companies and players, have to achieve a different understanding of a lot of concepts that are seen as inmature or menial nowadays, before we can actually start talking about games, as a whole, as art.

BTW, when I say media I refer to "method of communication, whether it transmits an information, feelings or concepts".

I don't agree, if the Human Centipede and well, most Adam Sandler movies don't disqualify movies from being art (and if Twilight and 50 Shades don't disqualify literature) I don't think Dante's Inferno or any number of other bad games disqualify the statement "games are art." For me though I don't really say movies are art, literature is art, or anything like that but tend to judge what is and isn't art on an individual basis. Movies, Books, Drawings, and Games are all mediums to me, not art forms. That's just my take on aesthetic theory. I had to write like 17 essays about it in my philosophy and humanites classes so I think I'll leave it at this.

 

[Ramiro]

ehh, in many countries, games are legally categorized as "toys" - which leads to the whole nasty trouble of censorship and some games not even being released in some countries. personally, i don't find it correct, that games / videogames are (children's)'toys' by law.  it doesn't give the medium the credit it deserves.

Probably on many countries they are, but you know, the ESRB and PEGI exists for a reason now, to avoid saying "God of war is for my 6 year old kid"

They don't have recognition sometimes, or eben bad reputation:

Hey this kid tried to steal a shop, must be fault of video games.

They, this kind doesn't want to learn, must be because he plays video games.

And a lot more of BS coming from them.but don't worry, less and less people are like that nowdays.

Here on Argentina we even banned Rapelay (wich is a game about something atrocius, not to see if you are under 21 or 18 in some countries)

So there is an idea of "video games being more than just toys"

This was of course, because the industry was born as toys... They are no longer that, but this is not new, this was invalid 20 years ago.

Nintendo had to sell its NES as a toy, because the video game decline... So the market was modelled arround that concept.

 

[trouble time]

Probably on many countries they are, but you know, the ESRB and PEGI exists for a reason now, to avoid saying "God of war is for my 6 year old kid"

They don't have recognition sometimes, or eben bad reputation:

Hey this kid tried to steal a shop, must be fault of video games.

They, this kind doesn't want to learn, must be because he plays video games.

And a lot more of BS coming from them.but don't worry, less and less people are like that nowdays.

Here on Argentina we even banned Rapelay (wich is a game about something atrocius, not to see if you are under 21 or 18 in some countries)

So there is an idea of "video games being more than just toys"

This was of course, because the industry was born as toys... They are no longer that, but this is not new, this was invalid 20 years ago.

Nintendo had to sell its NES as a toy, because the video game decline... So the market was modelled arround that concept.

To be fair, most media popular with a younger generation are blamed for whatever bad stuff happens to be happening. I mean even Socrates was corrupting the youth of Athens in his day. The reason it's dying down is that the people raised on video games are coming into their own. When we get the next big new medium, some people from that generation will probably say it's corrupting their kids. 

 

[Clord]

If we want recent gaming examples of "art", it would probably be those walking simulators like what Chinese Room does. Then again by definition any video game is art. Sometimes art can be turd, even when painted.

 

[trouble time]

If we want recent gaming examples of "art", it would probably be those walking simulators like what Chinese Room does. Then again by definition any video game is art. Sometimes art can be turd, even when painted.

IMO, walking simulators are a bad example of games as art, but since they were created with the intent of being art, I begrudgingly admit they are art (basically I'm saying that I don't like them lol, well most of them, Journey and Stanly Parable are the ones I'm crazy about.)

 

[TherainED]

I don't agree, if the Human Centipede and well, most Adam Sandler movies don't disqualify movies from being art (and if Twilight and 50 Shades don't disqualify literature) I don't think Dante's Inferno or any number of other bad games disqualify the statement "games are art." For me though I don't really say movies are art, literature is art, or anything like that but tend to judge what is and isn't art on an individual basis. Movies, Books, Drawings, and Games are all mediums to me, not art forms. That's just my take on aesthetic theory. I had to write like 17 essays about it in my philosophy and humanites classes so I think I'll leave it at this.

Ahem...

Spoiler

Jokes aside, you did miss a big part of my argument.

Whether something IS art as a whole is, at the very least, debatable, but whether something, as a whole, CAN BE art (meaning that it has artistic potential), is another thing and a quite different one by that matter.

Films are commonly refered to as the "Seventh Art" for a reason. Novels are considered to be inherently artistic for a reason. Videogames are not.

In my experience with arts, which is no little given that more than half my family are artists ranging from sculptors to poets, both filmmaking and writing are commonly considered to have artistic potential. Thus, through this (pretty much bandwagon) logic, people are able to draw a judgement on whether a form of media CAN or CANNOT be art, in other words, people can recognise that a media, as a whole, has artistic potential.

Note the lack of "I" in this paragraph and the presence of it in the next one.

In all honesty, you can wave at me that thing saying "but Fifty Shades of Grey", but that doesn't mean I'll quit recognising books as a media with artistic potential. You can show me the most horrible Michael Bay movie, but that doesn't mean that I'll stop viewing movies as a media suitable to properly deliver an artistic message. Furthermore, you can give me CoD and tell me that it's not art, and while I'll agree, I will still think that videogames as a whole can be used to deliver an artistic message, in other words, have an artistic potential.

Problem: Those are my opinions and apparently not many more people's. Why? Because not many people believe that videogames can have artistic potential. Why is that? Because of the young age of VG as a media.

TL;DR - It's not about being art or not, is about the possibility of creating art within a media. People seem to think that is not possible in videogames.

 

[Ramiro]

If there is a way to send a message, then it has a way to be art.

Movies, videogames, paintings, music, books, etc.

Rememeber how movies weren't considered an art form just because they were new ?

It took a while to recognize movies as art, even then I still know people who says "no, movies are not art, art are us" (writters, singers, etc)

Not every game is "more than a toy" but most of them at least, are. Even now when videogames are "mainstream" there are more games who have art potential than not...

Even more silly is thinking, if music is art and movies are art why videogames 'don't have any art', they have music and they are not far away from movies sometimes...

 

[trouble time]

Ahem...

Spoiler

Jokes aside, you did miss a big part of my argument.

Whether something IS art as a whole is, at the very least, debatable, but whether something, as a whole, CAN BE art (meaning that it has artistic potential), is another thing and a quite different one by that matter.

Films are commonly refered to as the "Seventh Art" for a reason. Novels are considered to be inherently artistic for a reason. Videogames are not.

In my experience with arts, which is no little given that more than half my family are artists ranging from sculptors to poets, both filmmaking and writing are commonly considered to have artistic potential. Thus, through this (pretty much bandwagon) logic, people are able to draw a judgement on whether a form of media CAN or CANNOT be art, in other words, people can recognise that a media, as a whole, has artistic potential.

Note the lack of "I" in this paragraph and the presence of it in the next one.

In all honesty, you can wave at me that thing saying "but Fifty Shades of Grey", but that doesn't mean I'll quit recognising books as a media with artistic potential. You can show me the most horrible Michael Bay movie, but that doesn't mean that I'll stop viewing movies as a media suitable to properly deliver an artistic message. Furthermore, you can give me CoD and tell me that it's not art, and while I'll agree, I will still think that videogames as a whole can be used to deliver an artistic message, in other words, have an artistic potential.

Problem: Those are my opinions and apparently not many more people's. Why? Because not many people believe that videogames can have artistic potential. Why is that? Because of the young age of VG as a media.

TL;DR - It's not about being art or not, is about the possibility of creating art within a media. People seem to think that is not possible in videogames.

I don't really think the opinion video games are art is that uncommon though, especially in the U.S. where the surpreme court ruled that they are a valid artistic medium (and thus protected by the first amendment).