Moving to intermediate mapping and beyond?

[JaiCrimson]

Hey all I'm back with another not so specific but also still pretty specific question!

Personally I feel as if I've gotten the hang of mapping fairly quickly, not that anyone should or shouldn't. So my question is... What can someone do to improve on mapping after taking a firm grasp of the basics. Are there unique tutorials that address theories of mapping? Or perhaps all it takes is to study others maps with a newly trained eye.

Any advice on how to progress in this field?

 

[_Shadow_]

Google:

parallax mapping

You will need:

• A few scripts to handle pictures properly.
• A picture editor software (GIMP, paint.net are free, Photoshop is a popular commercial)
• Skill to do copy paste and layer usage
• More advanced skills on picture manipulation
• A special transparent template for tileset

As you can understand parallax mapping will change the graphics from a grid to picture display.

Thus, you can actually do ANYTHING using a picture (for example using the grid, you can place a barrel only on certain places according to tile squares. Using parallax mapping you can place it to exact pixels.

 

[RibbonP]

You can look at video tutorials in youtube, but it's not recommended.

Instead, look at maps you find good to the eye.

What makes them that way?

Once you know what makes them good, you'll have no problem at all creating a map that's 'good' to the eyes, least to say.

Parallax mapping, the one Dreadshadow mentioned above is like the next step. Once you KNOW what makes a map good and can create a 'good' map, you should move on to parallax mapping. Well, it can be really annoying, but on the bright side, hey, the technique creates awesome maps.

 

[Kes]

I absolutely disagree with Dreadshadow.  Parallax mapping is not something you need, or should, be investing time and energy into until you have really mastered how to design a good map.  I personally am a bit fed up with maps which look wonderful but are not functional as maps.  Furthermore, they take a lot, lot longer to do and bloat the file size, so they need to be used only in specific cases, rather than for everything. Finally, unless you have saved them in all their layers, altering them afterwards is a total pain.

Learning to do edits in GIMP, or similar, is a great help as it will enable you to do some amazing things in the editor with relatively little work.  And because they are tiles, not parallaxes, you can reuse them, mix them with other things, etc., so it's a good investment of time and energy.

EDIT

Nothing beats putting your maps into the screenshots thread and getting specific feedback on it.  You will learn a lot that way.  Also reading the feedback on other peoples' maps increases your knowledge.

 

[Candacis]

I advice you to watch a lot how others do it, study other games or the very popular screenshot thread in this forum: http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/36466-game-map-screenshots-6/

Post your own screenshots in this thread and most likely you will get some helpful advice on how to make your maps better. There is always room for improvement, it comes with a lot of practice.

PandaMaru has done a great series on how to map specific things, unfortunately only in german, but watching her progress pictures helps, too:

http://maruresources.lonewolflab.com/?page_id=1449

http://maruresources.lonewolflab.com/?page_id=1463

http://maruresources.lonewolflab.com/?page_id=1482

Other nice mapping tutorials:

http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/14387-shiftclick-mapping/ (you should definitely know how to shift-map)

http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/61-mapping-in-five-easy-steps/

Luchino has also done some nice tutorials in that regard:

http://rpgmaker.net/tutorials/895/

http://rpgmaker.net/tutorials/911/

must read by indrah: http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/3415-guide-to-simple-tileset-edits-rearranging-clumping-and-recoloring/

I'm working right now on an in-depth tutorial on how to map a village with a great chunk on village mapping theory, too, so hopefully that will help people, too, that want to do more advanced mapping without using parallax.

I would not say that parallax mapping is the next thing you just have to do as a mapper. Yes, you have more freedom, but it costs much much more time and if you can't make good maps in the editor, making parallax maps is wasted time. If you can arrange tilesets and combine them (read indrah's tutorial), you can achieve maps that look unique and are very close to parallax.

So, I would advise against parallax, if you are only comfortable with basic stuff. The next step in my opinion is getting feedback for your maps, improve on them and then, more important than parallax, work on tinting and lighting of your maps.

edit: ksjp basically already said what I wanted to say but without me rambling on and on

 

[Hollow]

How is the pathing on your maps? Do you understand how to use positive v. negative space to direct the player's eye? Do you understand how to make something look man-made v. organic?

In line with what ksjp17 has said, I would recommend you look up level design tutorials rather than mapping tutorials. Having a pretty map is one thing, but players will enjoy your game a lot more if everything is functional/practical and made in a way that makes it easy to explore without getting confused.

Another general tip: as in all artistic mediums, use references! Look up blueprints/floorplans for castles, monasteries, banks, whatever you want to make and map it out. Just as well, you can look up maps from your favorite games and try to remake them to the best of your ability.

 

[_Shadow_]

What can someone do to improve on mapping after taking a firm grasp of the basics. 

@ksjp I consider functionality one of the fundamental things of mapping, my bad. I should not take anything for granted. You are absolutely right.

Since a pretty map is not good if it does not fulfill its purpose, I can say that yes, RibbonP you should first learn about functionality principles and stuff.

But I assumed you were through with such knowledge. If not, my bad. 

 

[Miss Nile]

I second Candacis and ksjp on everything they said, and I'll add something of my own. Try to experiment with different tilesets, different styles. Personally, I found that a fault of mine was that I could map interiors, villages and forests pretty well but really lacked experience in any other field, so I started working on that. Also, experiment with different designs. Try using the same tileset multiple times to create different maps. How unique can you make each map without changing the tileset?

Of course, the functionality is quite important and it's something I've come to realize recently as well. XD You could create magnificent maps, but they're only magnificent in screenshots. Gameplay-wise, they're pretty painful and annoying. Create a balance between this and that.

And I agree about parallax mapping. The editor can do everything you want to create perfect maps, and it's a lot easier and less time consuming.

 

[Petite Elite]

I've found that the most useful trick with mapping is to master elevations. Varying elevations can add a lot of flair and appeal to maps, even small ones. Have you seen those rpg maker maps that squeeze a second story into pubs? It adds a whole new dimension to the map. It can also create very appealing cramped cities.

One exercise I suggest is just to create a small map (20x20 or something similar) and fill it with a plain, bare mountainside with many varying elevations. Something like this (can you spot the error?):

Spoiler

This tutorial is for the older engines, but the same principal applies. Brickroad deals legendary game design/mechanic advice, so if you feel like it, you should read some of his other stuff too.

 

[mlogan]

One thing that I do from time to time is look through the screenshot thread and pick a map/map I like and try to replicate it. This really helped me a lot in the beginning when I was struggling with mapping and it still helps now - it gives me new perspective on ways to do things or place things that I might not have thought to do. (And these are not for in a game, just for practice.)

I do also agree with ksjp - I've spent some time parralaxing and while it can be fun, it's so much more valuable to edit tiles that can be used in the program.

 

[GrandmaDeb]

fwiw there are many tutorials on these topics (ground elevations, shift clicking, small tile edits, parallax mapping)


in the mapping section of the tutorial list here:


http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/28939-a-list-of-rmvx-ace-tutorials/


And yeah, browse the game map topic a lot. =]


I bookmark my favs for inspiration.


******************


edit


@petite elite - what a great tutorial!

 

[Musashi]

I've recently posted 2 mapping tutorials here, maybe they can help you:

http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/40576-creating-memorable-villages/

http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/40312-mapping-tips-ground-levels/

Most important, practice a lot; make lots of different maps, it's the only way to evolve /o/

 

[JaiCrimson]

Information overload xD. Let's start with the level design. That's basically what I was looking for, the theories of how to effectively create a map so that it blends both a sense of visual and functional capabilities. I would imagine that every map has a bit of a different theory as they each have their own individual story to convey. For this purpose I personally have found the tutorial from Petite Elite to be incredibly helpful as well as the ever so mentioned screenshot thread. Pandamaru's abilities are amazing to me but I believe I would get much more out of it if I could read in German! For the rest of the tutorials listed by everyone, I haven't really gotten around to checking them out yet. Will keep you guys updated on how I feel about those.

One thing I do want to mull about though is if maps really need to be as realistic as many people try to make them. I mean, we aren't actually recreating real life here, are we? I know that I at least am not only trying to tell a story or only trying to do any one thing. So with the thought in mind that a video game has different functions than real life, is it neccessary to emulate the wild unparallel nature of... well, nature? Or is trying to replicate our living surroundings part of the balance of functionality?

One thing I see a lot, and I mean A LOT, is linearity. There is five, maybe six times the amount of the map if not more available yet there's maybe only one or two pathways that one can actually follow through a dungeon. It seems like crafting something of flagpolish essence is a great exercise for the creator, but not really for anyone who has to experience it from the other side. The tutorial that Petite posted sort of gets around to this, and that's why I really like it.

Anyway sorry for rambling. What do you all think?

EDIT: Sorry one more thing... what parts of mapping would you consider to be beginner, intermediate, and advanced? Would shift-clicking be considered intermediate or late beginner? Parallax would seemingly be considered advanced. Etc etc.

 

[Kes]

I think you're right that there are a lot of maps which are big but which only have one or two narrow paths through them.  As you say, boring.  I prefer maps which allow me as a player to wander around and find cool items, maybe a bit extra character development dialogue, possibly finding a side path leading to an optional area etc. etc.  I do think, though, that the main route should be clear to the player so that s/he has a reasonably idea of where they are supposed to be going.  This is particularly important in the earlier parts of the game so that the player has a chance to get to know your particular style as a developer/mapper and can run for cover if they have over-extended themselves.

I don't think that 'realism' is quite what one is aiming for with an RM game.  Inevitably, because of the graphics, the story, etc., realism goes out of the window in lots of ways and at many moments.  However, that doesn't mean that just anything will do.  A common mistake that very new mappers make is the well known one of making their maps too big, so that they end up with huge houses full of empty space which then gets filled with 50 barrels.  Who keeps 50 barrels in their bedroom?  That sort of lack of realism merely looks gauche, so there are things to be avoided.  If you have a house, make it look like it's lived in by real people.  If you have a forest, don't make it all straight packed rows of identikit trees.  I think that's more what people are getting at when they talk about realism.

 

[Candacis]

I think, a map has to make sense in the boundries of the world you are creating. And everything is a little bit abstract. A map with 40 houses would be for normal standards a tiny hamlet, but in the scope of most rpg maker games, 40 houses would be a pretty big town. A player can understand that. As long as your world and your maps in itself make sense, it will be fine.

Regarding pathways: If you know from which way the player first enters a map, think about what he will be seeing first (or what he should see first). For instance, it can be a bit annoying, if you place the starting point of a quest (or just the first information about the area) way back at the end of map, but to now solve the quest the player has to backtrack again to the start of a map (not talking about a tiny room, more like big village maps or a dungeon in its whole). It is also very valuable if you have the option to watch someone play your game. Don't comment while the other person is playing, just watch which paths are taken first, or if they are even ignored etc.

I don't think, you can pinpoint down at which point it is basic or advanced mapping. This is much more complex since someone could use shift-mapping, but missing out on other mapping aspects. The best way to find out, if you are still lacking in some aspects, is to post your map screenshots in the screenshot forum and get some feedback.

 

[Shaz]

Once you are comfortable with mapping, start going through the Game & Map Screenshots threads (there are currently 5 or 6 of them, I think) to see what others have done, and post your own maps to get feedback and suggestions for improvement.


I also agree that you should NOT consider parallax mapping until you are making nice maps with the editor and find yourself too limited. The cons have already been mentioned so I won't go over them. Look at it when you have a need, not before.

 

[JaiCrimson]

Alrighty! Thanks everyone! I've looked through nearly every tutorial posted here and have carefully thought over everyone's words. Now I can hear you all in my head when I map xD.

What I'm taking away from this is, in order to be a better mapper you must; Practice. Research other maps. Have others criticise your maps. And above most, keep a strong mind of common sense! Unless anyone else has something to add I would say... PROBLEM SOLVED, AWWW YEAHHH

 

[Sharm]

This thread is being closed, due to being solved. If for some reason you would like this thread re-opened, please report this post and leave a message why. Thank you.