MP & TP Consumption Amounts, Fixed or Fluctuating?

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Hello gentle people of the interwebs I am doing some database work restructuring the way skills & parameters behave in my project, & decided to pick your respective brains on your respective preferences as developers & players.

Specifically, the consumption of TP & MP when it comes to the use of skills/spells, & whether you prefer said consumptions to be fixed or fluctuating.

By fixed I mean the standard issue "Fireball Level 1" cost 5 MP for all characters at all times, "Fireball Level 2" cost 15 MP for all characters at all times, etcetera. While by fluctuating I mean the cost of a skill/spell to be situationally determinative.

As an example, with my own project all weapon skills even basic attacks generate fatigue (consume TP points), however, the number of TP points they consume is entirely dependent upon what armor the individual character is wearing & what weapons they are using.

So my Rogue type who is using a pair of daggers & wearing leather armor consumes considerably less TP when they use a weapon skill, than my Warrior type kitted out in full plate & swinging a warhammer the size of small child. & their consumption rates are further effected by passive perks unlocked based on skill usage; i.e. his Level 20 self master of "hammertime" turns an ork skull into the shape of a soup bowl, with less TP consumption than his Level 1 "What's a warhammer?" self does.

Similar properties at work with spells, different armors have different MDF, with armors having higher MDF increasing MP consumption rate. As well as weapons with higher MAT, raising consumption rates as well. With additional passive perks altering power & consumption rates of MP.

The end result being, my Warrior type can throw a fireball for cheap, but it mostly just annoys things that are bigger than him. While my Mage type pays out more MP to throw the same fireball, for the trade off of "Hey look I can see my house through that giant's rib cage" payout. Think fuel consumption of a yugo versus a ferrari.

Personally I think the later is the more logically consistent, so I implemented it into my project. However, some people might not like the idea of the resource cost of skills/spells fluctuating, & may very much prefer a "fireball level 1" to always be 5 MP regardless of who casts it.

So I am curious to hear, your own whys & wherefores. Which do you prefer when you play? Which do you prefer when you program?

 

[Marsigne]

I like situational as a player. Gives depth to the system and rewards different play styles. What more can you ask!

As a developer, it'd depend on which type of game I want to create. If the game is meant to be realistic and in need of such a system (strategic or hardcore games are examples) then I'd go in making such a system. Otherwise too overkill for me.

 

[Diretooth]

I actually like the idea of a fluctuating system myself. In a simple enough game, it can add strategy that is all too often not present.

 

[Llareian]

Your setup sounds really interesting as a fluctuating system. I generally don't like to have different characters using the same skills, but if you do, it's nice when they can implement them differently.

 

[Point08]

I think that's a pretty interesting system you've worked out. As a developer, it sounds like a good bit of work to get all the little details right so it, as a system, is consistent in how and by how much the costs vary. As long as you get that part right, then as a player, I think I'd really enjoy that system, and the strategic depth it would add, not too mention the cool story aspect to it.

(As a side note, the way you describe using TP as a fatigue type of system gave me an idea on how to solve a technical issue I've been having related to my own TP/MP/Fatigue system, so thanks.)

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

I like situational as a player. Gives depth to the system and rewards different play styles. What more can you ask!

As a developer, it'd depend on which type of game I want to create. If the game is meant to be realistic and in need of such a system (strategic or hardcore games are examples) then I'd go in making such a system. Otherwise too overkill for me.

I actually like the idea of a fluctuating system myself. In a simple enough game, it can add strategy that is all too often not present.

Strategy was the main reason for the system's creation, I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with the basic battle system, if you put in the work to add depth to it. Rather than making the battle system a simple ATK/MAT minus DEF/MDF first to one hundred wins.

So even though I am using the same basic attack & defend commands, how they manifest varies greatly based on equipment & skills.

For example on offense different weapons have different damage types, respectively crushing (warhammers & mace), slashing (war axes, battle axes, short swords, & long swords), piercing (daggers, spears, arrows, & bolts), which naturally effect different monster more or less effectively. Case in point an arrow to the chest for a skeleton isn't all that troubling on account of the lack of blood, heart, lungs, etcetera; while a mace strike to the chest does more damage due to the lack of fleshy padding & armor to diffuse the impact.

While on defense, the EX & SP parameters vary according to the state applied based on what equipment the character is using. Characters blocking with a shield have a higher guard rate, characters dual wielding have a higher counter attack rate, characters using magic staffs have higher magic evasion & reflection, etcetera.

Your setup sounds really interesting as a fluctuating system. I generally don't like to have different characters using the same skills, but if you do, it's nice when they can implement them differently.

I use a mixed bag based on player choice, some skills are archetype specific, while others are universal. For example, the player can make any of his or her characters able to cast a healing spell or a fireball; while applying poison to weapons is a rogue archetype specific, & berserker skills are warrior archetype specific.

It honestly doesn't make sense to me that a warrior wouldn't try to learn a basic healing spell, to close up a wound on the battlefield; or a rouge wouldn't try to learn an attack spell as a nasty surprise in a fight. Not unless you are going to have some in game lore reason why access to magical abilities or learning how to use said ability is very limited.

I think that's a pretty interesting system you've worked out. As a developer, it sounds like a good bit of work to get all the little details right so it, as a system, is consistent in how and by how much the costs vary. As long as you get that part right, then as a player, I think I'd really enjoy that system, and the strategic depth it would add, not too mention the cool story aspect to it.

(As a side note, the way you describe using TP as a fatigue type of system gave me an idea on how to solve a technical issue I've been having related to my own TP/MP/Fatigue system, so thanks.)

Happy to be of indirect help.

It is a good bit of work though. I have nearly all of my skill slots filled, which apparently cap out at 2,000. I have nearly two hundred variables that are used for unlocking skills & applying statuses. & Nearly two hundred common events relating to skill usage, skill learning, equipped gear, class changes, & statuses.

So yes, it has taken a while to build all of this. However, I feel it was worth the effort, because it adds much greater strategy to every battle.

 

[gstv87]

do note that skill TP cost only goes to 100.

I like to assume that as a percentage.
I don't remember right now if the variable TP also goes to 100, but the skill object's max TP value goes up to 100 in the database editor.

IF that is a percentage, then you can use it as an indicator of focus.
if the character has their TP filled up, they'll do increased damage.

with MP, it's a matter of balancing maximum amount and skill cost.
maximum/cost = turns you can keep doing the same.
you can then make the game interesting by varying how quickly that formula stops working.

 

[Milennin]

I like a fixed system, because that way, the same skill always follows the same base rules. Consistency is key, in my opinion.
Now, if Mage had, say, a passive ability that makes skills cost [x amount] more and deal [x amount] more damage, then that would be much better, because the skill continues to follow its base rules, but gets changed by the effect of another ability. So it's easier to evaluate the skill from its base, and then calculate its usability based on the passive effects of your party members, instead of making it seem like same skills follow random rules for each character that aren't visible to the player.

(Although I would have to ask why a Warrior would waste his breath casting a weak flame spell when he's much better off swinging a weapon.)

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

do note that skill TP cost only goes to 100.

I like to assume that as a percentage.
I don't remember right now if the variable TP also goes to 100, but the skill object's max TP value goes up to 100 in the database editor.

All of that can be overridden rather easily with plugins. I initially was using a TP gauge whose max value was derived from the various values of certain base parameters, so that would increase over time like the MP gauge. However, it felt a little clumsy for my tastes with how much I had to work around certain things. So I took it back down to 100 standard & implemented the fatigue system based on equipment loadout & passives, which I like better.

IF that is a percentage, then you can use it as an indicator of focus.
if the character has their TP filled up, they'll do increased damage.

Perhaps, but I've honestly already have a rather large number of common events, variables, & skills already dedicated to the system I have. So I don't much fancy adding yet another layer to that cake.

with MP, it's a matter of balancing maximum amount and skill cost.
maximum/cost = turns you can keep doing the same.
you can then make the game interesting by varying how quickly that formula stops working.

For that, I use percentage of MMP based cost, rather than fixed amounts of MP for the baseline. Further effected by character loadouts & passive skills which alter the consumption rates. That way when you have a Warrior Archetype & a Mage Archetype trading fireballs, instead of the difference being that the Warrior Archetype can throw out a dozen, while the Mage Archetype can throw out more than a hundred; the difference will be that the Warrior Archetype's fireball hits like a honda, while the Mage Archetypes fireball hits like a Peterbilt.

I like a fixed system, because that way, the same skill always follows the same base rules. Consistency is key, in my opinion.
Now, if Mage had, say, a passive ability that makes skills cost [x amount] more and deal [x amount] more damage, then that would be much better, because the skill continues to follow its base rules, but gets changed by the effect of another ability. So it's easier to evaluate the skill from its base, and then calculate its usability based on the passive effects of your party members, instead of making it seem like same skills follow random rules for each character that aren't visible to the player.

(Although I would have to ask why a Warrior would waste his breath casting a weak flame spell when he's much better off swinging a weapon.)

I would agree it's important for the player to understand the why, of things that are effecting their skills. It's why I included the ability to observe the EX & SP parameters from the Status screen. So when a player swaps over from a short sword to a warhammer they can see how their fatigue (TP Charge rate) has increased.

As for why would a warrior throw a fireball, I would say it depends upon the scenario, as well as how the character develops. Hybrid classes with some magical firepower to backup their close combat prowess are something of a staple in RPGs, though they virtually never hold a candle to pure spellcasters in raw magic power in any game I've seen.

As for my own project, how much a Warrior Archetype can do with a fireball, varies greatly upon how the player uses that Warrior Archetype. Because a great deal of the individual characters evolution is determined by player choice.

 

[Wavelength]

I think that simplicity and consistency are important, especially when information is not directly in front of the player. For example, I'm choosing an action for Character #3 and my decision depends on whether Character #1 will be able to use a certain spell two turns in the future. This would be hard to figure out with a "dynamic cost" system. Fixed costs makes things much easier. If you're trying to represent "strain" or encumbrance on a character's stamina for wearing certain armor, for example, you could more simply adjust that character's MP/TP regeneration (or Max) while wearing that armor. This might affect the aforementioned decision, too, but at least it's a single number that is consistently applied throughout every turn of the battle, rather than messing with the cost of every single skill/spell.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

I think that simplicity and consistency are important, especially when information is not directly in front of the player. For example, I'm choosing an action for Character #3 and my decision depends on whether Character #1 will be able to use a certain spell two turns in the future. This would be hard to figure out with a "dynamic cost" system. Fixed costs makes things much easier. If you're trying to represent "strain" or encumbrance on a character's stamina for wearing certain armor, for example, you could more simply adjust that character's MP/TP regeneration (or Max) while wearing that armor. This might affect the aforementioned decision, too, but at least it's a single number that is consistently applied throughout every turn of the battle, rather than messing with the cost of every single skill/spell.

?????

I am not certain where you got the impression that skill costs would change turn to turn in a battle. I am simply having the the MP cost & TP charge rates adjust based on what equipment the characters are using, & what perks the player has unlocked for those characters. So unless the player changes the equipment mid battle or unlocks a new perk mid battle, there would be no reason for the TP/MP cost of a skill/spell to change.

The TP/MP regeneration rates is interesting, but I already have them being determined by parameters. As for adjusting the max level, since I am using percentage of the max as the baseline cost, there wouldn't be any point.

 

[Wavelength]

I am not certain where you got the impression that skill costs would change turn to turn in a battle. I am simply having the the MP cost & TP charge rates adjust based on what equipment the characters are using, & what perks the player has unlocked for those characters. So unless the player changes the equipment mid battle or unlocks a new perk mid battle, there would be no reason for the TP/MP cost of a skill/spell to change.

It followed logically in my mind, that if you were having things like equipment affect skill costs, that you'd also have states and such that would affect skill costs. Even if this is not the case, my opinion stays the same - fixed (and absolute) costs create a better player experience, in general, because it makes the planning process clearer and there are better ways to include the depth of "some equipment lets you use spells more frequently".

The TP/MP regeneration rates is interesting, but I already have them being determined by parameters. As for adjusting the max level, since I am using percentage of the max as the baseline cost, there wouldn't be any point.

Sounds like you've got a good solution already available then - have those equips increase/decrease those parameters! Not only do you get to create the light/heavy armor decision that trades off defense for spell frequency, but you also get to do it in a really elegant, intuitive manner.

 

[kaukusaki]

Think fuel consumption of a yugo versus a ferrari.... the difference will be that the Warrior Archetype's fireball hits like a honda, while the Mage Archetypes fireball hits like a Peterbilt.

I'm enjoying these car references XD
Anyways fluxing parameters dependant on equipment is interesting. I like that idea. It's more logical as it accounts for strain and it's consistent as the character levels. Whereas if it's fixed then you'd have to account for slot swapping or upgrading in some manner...

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

I'm enjoying these car references XD
Anyways fluxing parameters dependant on equipment is interesting. I like that idea. It's more logical as it accounts for strain and it's consistent as the character levels. Whereas if it's fixed then you'd have to account for slot swapping or upgrading in some manner...

I certainly like it, I think it gives the player reasons beyond aesthetics for different loadouts.

Perhaps it's because of my time in the military, so I have an appreciation of just how much varying degrees of body armor add to the effort of any given action, & just how much more effort it is to keep doing the same actions when using a much larger weapon. But what I wanted to do was as much as possible provide incentives for the use of each weapon & armor type, since I let my character select from a rather large pool of equipment, that would make sense to the player.

For example why use a longsword when the character can use a warhammer that does more damage? Answer because the warhammer is heavier so it consumes all of the character's stamina faster, making for fewer but more powerful attacks.

 

[fireflyege]

Well in my game MP and TP must be observed and managed by the player. I agree on the different costs for different characters and your style of thought.

A warrior may not channel mana to throw a fireball made from concentrated mana (and it would already be a miracle if a warrior would know a fireball because that would be a battlemage) but a mage can easily do that. Gameplay reflecting that is not a bad thing.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Well in my game MP and TP must be observed and managed by the player. I agree on the different costs for different characters and your style of thought.

A warrior may not channel mana to throw a fireball made from concentrated mana (and it would already be a miracle if a warrior would know a fireball because that would be a battlemage) but a mage can easily do that. Gameplay reflecting that is not a bad thing.

Unfortunately I just realized after a bit of testing over the weekend that I am an idiot, & the TP charge rate didn't do anything close to what I thought it did. So now I am going to have to rework the numbers from a different angle to implement what I was intending as far as physical skills.

However, everything I put in worked exactly as intended when it came to the magic skills, so I have that going for me.