Negative consequences to using magic

[jonthefox]

So, I found myself in a dilemma. I didn't really want the use of magic to be a necessary investment in my game in order to have a successful party...rather, I wanted it to be a stylistic choice. I wanted magic to fulfill the fantasy of being super impactful when used at the right moments, and so I counterbalanced its power by making it very costly. After some playtesting, I realized that this wasn't actually fun...because no one likes having to be stingy with one's abilities.

So now, I'm thinking that another way to do it would be to give the use of magic a different kind of drawback. One idea I had is that after you cast a spell, you're disoriented for 1 turn and take significantly increased damage until you regain your focus. Not sure if this would work though, considering magic users are already the squishiest class.

Anyone have any cool ideas that makes the player pay some kind of price for using a spell, but which also doesn't frustrate the player and at the same time does not discourage the user from using his or her spells?

 

[Amarok]

i've also been thinking about that, i think old games like baldurs gate got magic really good, in the sense that a single spell could finish a battle if used correctly at the right time and place. Maybe instead of punishing the player for using the magic you could limit the resources needeed to cast spells. Or make mp replenishment means more scarce so the player has to think more strategically about how and when use magic.

Another idea i had was something like how magic works in the manga/anime Magi, where the capability to cast spells is directly tied to one endurance (so basically mp and health merged together) the newest fire emblem does this and i personally like it.

 

[bgillisp]

One thing that might work is to make it so that all mages are the same strength as regular fighters, until they use a spell. In other words, they are only squishy if they used a spell recently, as it weakened them. That way if you don't use spells you can still be a fighter, but if you use spells, you'll drop down to a mage's stats.

As to the other ideas, I'm not a fan of having HP and Mana merged, as I feel it nerfs healers something awful. I think the only game that did this well in my opinion was Betrayal at Krondor (from the early 90's). In all other games that did this I never felt there was a point in having a healer as you had to spend HP to heal HP now? Very easy to be in a cycle where you can't ever regain your parties HP that way.

 

[Amarok]

What about this, its similar to what @bgillisp mentioned, instead of merging hp and mp, just treat mp as if it was it was "stamina" so if the player spends too much mp it gets a negative effect like "tired" and if the mp drops to 0 they can get an effect similar to sleep or even die.
So the player is free to go all out using their powers but there will always be the risk of getting exhausted unless you plan things and have some way of either finish the battle quickly or replenish your mp to keep attacking.

 

[Frogboy]

You could make magic require components to cast. That way, it doesn't need to physically weaken the caster but because components are limited, they aren't going to want to use them unless they feel they need it. Spells that make you spend a lot of money or seek out material components should be very powerful to make them worth it.

You could also simplify this by just making spells cost money to cast.

 

[chungsie]

for the most part, I consider any magic system to somehow correspond with the plot or theme of a work. not every magic system is benign or powerful, there are systems where it is something physical and spiritual/religious in which case you have like shamanic and paladin type of powers, then you have it physical and ethereal and so on, most the magic systems I have seen involve a physical essence at some point. I think that's because it is justified as being like that of Dragon fire, in that you need a real world catalyst.

I tend to think of magic as an extension of the physical self, and the will of the spiritual self, in that the intent can be made with a motion or word, that's how alot work for a time. Just as an action can shape the intent, eventually the intent can shape the physical, in a spiritual way, that makes it so a spell is caste without doing anything except willing it with willpower. Other systems may you use Intelligence or Miracles.

 

[gstv87]

a good balance of the mp cost and regeneration can do just fine.
sometimes the best solution is the most simple one.

do note that MP regeneration is a percentage, and MP cost is a constant.
if you don't sort that out, you'll always be regenerating more than you spend, allowing for spamming of low-cost skills.

 

[Rayhaku808]

Another idea i had was something like how magic works in the manga/anime Magi, where the capability to cast spells is directly tied to one endurance (so basically mp and health merged together) the newest fire emblem does this and i personally like it.

I endorse this. It's a lot easier to balance than a handful of other ideas if you can't implement those somehow instead.

You could also make it like Pokémon but that might be boring. You can only use fire 6 times per battle, fira 3 times, firaga once. This wouldn't work by itself but if you paired it with another kind of feature then it could

 

[chungsie]

well, there are lots of battle scripts available for free, and if you really need a custom script, I know a ace programmer willing to help.

 

[Basileus]

Well if you don't want magic to be 100% mandatory to beat the game, then the first thing you need is an interesting alternative to magic for the player to use. With no competition, spamming magic is always the optimal strategy. By introducing something that is mutually exclusive it forces the player to choose whether they want to invest in magic or in this other mechanic. Each one will need a clear strength and weakness, preferably one that makes sense in your setting.

For example, if magic in your setting is related to the local religion or is some kind of divine gift, you can then limit the number of spells a player can cast but have them replenish their spell stock by visiting temples or shrines. There can also be a non-magical class like an Engineer that can purchase machines to gain new abilities, trading spell slots for an ammo system and being more convenient at the cost of being more expensive to maintain. In this system a Mage might get a fire spell while an Engineer can buy a flamethrower. The Mage can cast his spells for free but only gets so many before he is tapped out. The Engineer on the other hand can get many more uses out of their flamethrower but has to purchase the fuel needed for each use. Same effect, different methods.

The most important balancing factor for this is actually your other classes. Each class should have some variance in resource consumption to make the player choose how they want to allocate their resources to meet their needs.

I feel the class system in Dragon Quest III does this nicely:

• Soldiers have high Strength and Vitality but low Agility and can equip most weapons and armors, making them hit hard and take lots of hits but slow and usually the last to act in battle. Since they rely on weapons and armor they are one of the most expensive classes in the game.
• Fighters have high Strength and Agility but low Vitality and have few but cheap weapon and armor options, making them glass cannons that often act first in battle. Since they don't really use weapons or armor they are on of the cheapest classes in the game.
• Priests have good healing and utility spells but little in the way of offense. They have surprisingly good health and actually get some weapon and armor options making them almost closer to Paladins if you invest in them. Moderate cost to equip since you'll want to upgrade their gear whenever possible.
• Mages have good attack spells and some utility but are only really good for nuking enemies. They are extremely squishy and have almost no weapon or armor options, so you might end up having them just Attack or Defend against common mobs to conserve their MP. Very low cost to equip.
• Merchants are strong well-rounded characters in the early game and can use many weapons and armors. Their strength is mostly in how well you equip them but they have the early stats to be useful when other leveling weaker classes and gain extra gold per battle to help support more expensive classes.
• Jesters are pretty much a joke class but they have outrageously high luck so you can use them to fish for rare drops to find top-notch gear for other classes or extra gold to buy gear.

The player character has the Hero class which makes them well-rounded with good weapon and armor options with both attack and healing magic to fill in gaps in the team they pick. The player can choose all Soldiers and have a wall of tanks, but the cost to properly equip them all would be insane. The player can choose to go Fighter, Fighter, Mage with the Hero for healing and have almost no upkeep costs, but the party will risk going down quick if anything survives the fight 1-2 rounds. Low cost early options like Fighters and Merchants help offset the costs of expensive Soldiers and Priests, but it's fully possible to go with all-magic or no-magic party comps if the player chooses.

 

[Scrylite]

Having negative consequences for an ability is generally beyond punishing for a player, having already had to level up & attain the ability to begin with. Costs however are often far more neutral as is having alternative methods of casting. Here are a few ideas which may be useful for you

• Limited MP (Say you may cast 2 spells but then require a turn to "Chant"/Guard to restore MP. To further reduce the usage of spells, perhaps run a common event at the beginning of each battle to set everyone's MP to 0 specifically so they must prepare the MP)
• Limited Skill Use per battle
• Spells apply a state to the user that prevents the use of of "spells" the following turn, preventing constant magic use rather than being negative, however be careful when utilising this for healers, or make them also have healing "specials" to counterbalance turns when critical strikes/boss super moves hit.

One of my preferred methods of limiting magic is to have fewer attainable skills and instead have weapons utilising the attack replace plugin by Yanfly to trigger specials on attacking. That way there is plenty of magic and animations but those abilities do not have to have a damage formula much higher than your basic attack due to the abilities having no cost as it is triggered for free as characters use a basic attack.

 

[UnicornsVomit]

Something to think about would be a death knight like approach, sacrificing your own health in order to cast spells.

 

[Tai_MT]

I've, personally, never been a fan of punishing a player for doing something. Why should I want to use my Magic if I have to spend a turn after it with a debuff or unable to act?

Instead of discouraging use of spells, why not simply make the spells as strong as anything else in the game? Or, have Magic attack in a much different way? Why not target a different defensive stat with a cast of a spell so that sometimes magic isn't effective? Why aren't the magic spells simply the same as any other skill, except they do some kind of elemental damage?

But, if you insist on having a drawback to using magic (for story reasons or otherwise), then maybe put a cooldown on each spell. That way, you have to wait for the spell to recharge before you can activate it again.

I dunno, I just like the idea of making sure not every skill is effective in every instance (or even a majority of instances. Maybe effective in only half of them). Learning that your skills don't do much damage against a specific enemy keeps the player from using that skill against that enemy. That's how I'm currently achieving "balance" among my classes. No reason to bring a mage with you if you don't like. It's just a different flavor of effective character.

 

[Manofdusk]

well, with Yanfly's state scripts (and a good bit of help), I managed to create a state that raises stats based on how much hp you've lost. It would not be particularly hard to reverse engineer it to make it so that it lowers stats based on how much mp (as a percentage) you've lost. Thus, casting a few low cost spells won't tire you out overly, but drop your MP too low and you become nearly worthless.

HOWEVER, I'm going to suggest a system similar to Torg's Orrorsh cosm (the novel). In it, magic was a thing but it was very specific (the monsters were very specific too). You put a lot of effort into casting a single spell, but that single spell was often the only way to kill a monster permanently.

So, for example: You have a vampire. This vampire is a random encounter that is immortal and always flees when on low health. You can't kill it or get any rewards from it. You have to learn that its weakness is an enchanted silver stake. You must then gather the silver, craft the stake, then enchant it... and only then can you kill the monster. Once you kill it, you get its loot and it doesn't respawn.

I know you were talking about a way to make spellcasting optional, but I always liked the concept that magic was specific as a downside (that same enchanted silver stake won't kill the werewolf that you have to fight next (even If it does do a lot of damage to them)).

 

[fireflyege]

Well, do not gate your characters.

You do not want your characters to excessively use magic? Fine. But do not force your player with a penalty. Regaining focus is the most stupid idea I have ever heard, right after the vampires being executed with a single way. Give your characters freedom about what they do.

If we are talking about battlemages, you can use this approach. Battlemage's spells having moderate cooldowns and his physical abilities reducing those cooldowns. So that the guy still does magic but does it once in a while.

For example I am currently reworking my mage because he had no interplay between his abilities, with him having a skillset that says ''I can use all elements but Arcane is my forte'' so I approached to the Arcane and gave him a huge nuke which is indeed super duper powerful but having a cooldown just as massive. The character is able to combat this with weaving between his elemental and arcane magic, and each elemental spell does something other than just damage so you can always approach a scenario with different ways. For example your enemy might be taking huge damage from earth since its damage relies on enemy physical defense but you may prefer to drain life with darkness to prevent your death until somebody heals you.

Give your characters interesting choices and the ability to use their abilities effectively. You do not want your characters to use magic? Then do not make mages. Plain and simple.

 

[Pierman Walter]

I made a little game where using your psychic powers caused irreversible hearing damage by lowering the font size of dialogue boxes until they were too small to read.

 

[fireflyege]

@Pierman Water why?

Ok consequences for using powers is good but that is just bad design if the game is not for trolling purposes. Why give powers to a person if they are never meant to use them?

 

[Pierman Walter]

Because the abilities that cause irreversible hearing damage are map-clearingly strong, and are meant to be a last resort.

 

[fireflyege]

Then you are designing it wrong. First of all if you said some kind of sonic ability I would maybe agree but even then your game will not appeal to people that like magic.

There are better options than permanent penalties such as psychic abilities making you overloaded and if you cast it too much you are dead or the allies taking some damage themselves. Even if your character would have permanent hearing issues because of using this but a psychic must be able to do this thing where they mind read to understand things. If chat boxes become smaller, you are not punishing that character specifically, you are punishing the whole party and the player.

But if you take delight in making an torturous game, you can mess the skill and item descriptions to be like that so we may stop getting any fun from that game for using a skill.

 

[Basileus]

I made a little game where using your psychic powers caused irreversible hearing damage by lowering the font size of dialogue boxes until they were too small to read.

...So the game just becomes unplayable at some point? Also, that's severely unfair to people with visual impairments or learning disabilities that already make reading challenging. For any of those players the game text could easily be impossible to read even after only 2 or 3 font size decreases. I'm sorry, but that is appallingly bad game design.

The only time those tricks are okay is if it is temporary and does not block players from getting through the game, or when the game has very low iteration time. A game like Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem can screw with the interface and text/sound because it only lasts for a few seconds to mess with the player briefly. A game like Rogue Legacy can completely distort text and have extreme graphics screws because the player is expected to die frequently and move on to new random characters with new quirks often, so occasionally having combinations that make the game impossible is fine since it only takes a minute or so to die and get a new character.