Negative stigma around RTP

bgillisp

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@Failivrin : That's true with more than just the RTP. I see people that use battle systems that don't work for the game or engine they are using, graphics that make no sense for the game, and so on. Always work within the limits of what you have, not force what you have to work for your story even though it doesn't work.

Trust me, my game has lost a lot of things from the original draft that it's almost hilarious to look back and it and see what the plan was vs what I actually have. But...I'm in the last chapter now, so it's worked.

Say, maybe someone should start a thread discussing this? It might be a good topic, but it's a tad off topic to say too much more on it here. Back to the RTP discussion.
 

padr81

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These are my thoughts in regards to commercial games.

Its not just RTP that gets slaughtered, its anything that resembles the RTP more often then not. I can't blame the casual steam user either. There are hundreds of terrible, terrible games with the RTP style so it's going to be hard for someone who has been bitten a couple of times to reach deep in there pocket a 3rd time for a game that looks almost the same.

I also think if you are going to sell your game on steam or something the least you can do is invest in some art, whether its packs or fully custom just don't give the potential customer a chance to walk away after 1 glance thinking its "just another rpg maker junk", if you do you have no one to blame for yourself.

I also don't think something like "It would cost me x amount to by assets and I can't afford it" is a good idea for a commercial game. If you want to make a successful commercial game you have to be willing to spend a little, its that simple really.
Think about it, is your default VXAce resource game or your default MV style games really going to be that much better then games like Winters End, North Wall, Feral Dreams, Manifest, Legion Saga etc.. I'd wager not enough to make a difference to the average person looking at rpg maker games. Why should they plump for your commercial rpg maker game with default assets when they can get games of that quality for free. I've yet to play a single commercial RM game using only default assets that is. All the games that I can clearly say are more professional and better than those on Steam are using custom stuff, games like Skyborn, Echoes of Aetheria, City of Chains.

What this means is you are paying the price regardless of how good your game is for what came before and the quick greenlight cash grab. Essentially in a lot of cases you are selling essentially the same game in the eyes of the average guy who visits your store page only the story is different.

Even myself I'd be skeptical to pay for what looks like a default VX Ace game on Steam without really researching it first. Most steam users won't. They'll say "typical rpg maker" and skip to the next.

I actually believe Degica/Kadokowa or whoever should actually only allow default assets that come with the maker in free games. That would completely remove the amount of junk that gets thrown on Steam and a lot of RPG Makers bad name.

My thoughts on free games with the RTP are the complete opposite, if its a learning experience or just a game for fun and free then the RTP is perfectly fine and encouraged as you shouldn't be spending cash on something you are going to give away if you have real life responsibilities etc..

There are some great games and some absolute crap made with the RTP, how is the potential player expected to know the guy that put 100 hours into making his game vs the guy that put 3000 hours?
 

bgillisp

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@padr81 : There's one problem with your argument. Have you looked up the sales figures for Echoes of Artheia? I looked it up with Steamspy, and It was very low (I think it was ~3K when I did it a few months ago, though it probably just spiked due to it being included in the humble bundle). So even with the custom stuff, it flopped. And there are games with RTP that have sold in the hundred thousands. So custom art is not equal to high sales on Steam these days.

Edit: Just checked, Echoes of Artheia jumped to ~11K now that the humble bundle is over. But it was ~3K when I looked it up last June.
 

Failivrin

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And there are games with RTP that have sold in the hundred thousands.
That is news to me. Do you have examples of these games or hints as to why they were popular?
 

bgillisp

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No, though I think it is more because they were the first ones released, so people bought them to see what they are like. Any game I see on Steamspy with sales over 50,000 made in RPGMaker seems to be games that were released in 2014 or earlier. So it could be the sales went up as they established themselves with more games? But yes, the one and done games made with all RTP seem to usually have really low sales, that I have noticed. So if you do go all RTP, you are probably going to need a few games to show people that you know what you are doing, then go from there.

But, again, I've seen games with heavy custom art also flop...made in any engine. I wish I remembered which game it was, but there was a game made that was considered good by most who had played it (it wasn't an RPGMaker game), but hadn't even sold 10K sales yet, so the company was struggling financially as a result.

Edit: I remember the game now. Data Hacker, Initiation. It is at 209K when I looked it up today. It has custom music and scripting, but the graphics are pretty heavy RTP.
 

padr81

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@padr81 : There's one problem with your argument. Have you looked up the sales figures for Echoes of Artheia? I looked it up with Steamspy, and It was very low (I think it was ~3K when I did it a few months ago, though it probably just spiked due to it being included in the humble bundle). So even with the custom stuff, it flopped. And there are games with RTP that have sold in the hundred thousands. So custom art is not equal to high sales on Steam these days.

Edit: Just checked, Echoes of Artheia jumped to ~11K now that the humble bundle is over. But it was ~3K when I looked it up last June.
Oh yeah, I agree but Echoes is a 15 dollar game while alot of those huge sellers are 2-3 dollar games. I'm not saying it can't do well but having the default game is going to make the guy who has been stung before be more skeptical.

I may be wrong but when I checked Steam Spy games like Terra Incognita, Skyborn, Cthulu Saves the World, Breath of Death are the ones at the top. I'm not saying that RTP games can't do well but in general they are more likely to be passed over.

I mean I really like the Labyronia games and was lucky enough to test the new one (and trust me it's really good and going to clock in at around 40-50 hours so well worth whatever price it hits the store at) but I could understand why someone would pass it over given how it looks, though I'd highly recommend people pick it up. In fact had I not stumbled across it via the forum I'd probably have passed over it on steam myself.
 

padr81

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That is news to me. Do you have examples of these games or hints as to why they were popular?
You can check out different games on steam spy. I don't think its ok to post figures here but I'm not sure.
 

bgillisp

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@padr81 : True, but 11K at $14.99 is still worse than 209K at $2.99. But I see your point too.

Like I said though, I think it comes down to a lot of things. Timing of release. Visibility. Mapping. Do you use the graphics well (RTP or no RTP)? A convincing trailer. Marketing. Do you troll your users (sadly, some companies do this on steam, and get many negative reviews as a result). And a good publisher can also help, if you don't self publish.
 

padr81

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@padr81 : True, but 11K at $14.99 is still worse than 209K at $2.99. But I see your point too.

Like I said though, I think it comes down to a lot of things. Timing of release. Visibility. Mapping. Do you use the graphics well (RTP or no RTP)? A convincing trailer. Marketing. Do you troll your users (sadly, some companies do this on steam, and get many negative reviews as a result). And a good publisher can also help, if you don't self publish.
No doubt. RTP is not the only factor indeed but I think a huge amount of potential players now dismiss games on RTP look alone. What I would be curious about is if the cost of custom art would justify the boost in sales/players for a game.

Personally I think free assets and or store packs are enough to make a game look different and for us developers the best of both worlds and it's what I'm trying to run with.

I do think a good publisher is probably as important too as they have a ready made market.

Think I'm gone a little off topic now. sorry.
 

Leon Kennedy

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Well repetition is understandably annoying. There are endless rtp edits and good free resources here on forums so there is really no excuse for only using rtp. Now people being nit picky about people having a few stock rtp resources in game is going a bit far in my opinion.
 

Frozen_Phoenix

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Another rtp thread... Graphics works as a first impression, so if you aim to sell the game, using unique graphics will increase sales, you have to offset the costs though. Now if you're doing a free game, just use whatever you feel like.
 

Ihavenoskin

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It's a hard one for me... My first game uses a ton of amazing free resources from this site but also some RTP but I've parralaxed and shaded, recoloured and creat a lot too... I'm just going to try my best with what I have...

It is a worry of mine that my game gets written off but then again even if I do put a price on the game it will be very cheap if anything at all... This subject actually keeps me up at night lol

I personally think the story and game play are easily my strongest point. I hope ;)

Don't worry is probably the best thing, especially with your first serious attempt, I plan to hand draw my next game...
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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I have to say that I think the contempt for RTP style RPG maker games isn't unwarranted. & the sentiment is hardly exclusive to RPG Maker style games for that matter.

Not because the RTP graphics are bad mind you. I started gaming in the days of Atari, & remember when the original Super Mario Brothers for NES was unlike anything I had seen on the home systems. So I am easy to impress, not to mention I understand how much effort it takes to make characters of the quality of the RPG maker RTPs.

However, I am of the opinion that for every one person who makes an effort to be a legitimate indie dev & make a good game with the RTP assets. There are about nine other shovelware people who can't be bothered to bug test, edit their dialogue, check for balance, etcetera, etcetera. Because while the one indie dev wants to make a good game, the nine shovelware makers just want to be able to say they have made "A Game".

& once the shovelware makers complete their "game", they will spam it all over Greenlight, New Grounds, & any other site they can find. But will never improve upon what they've done in the future, because they learn rather quickly how much effort is involved in making something better than shovelware.

So I think someone who uses RTP assets, or easily recognized assets like the Pop Horror tilesets, is probably always going to need to be cognizant of that fact, & really work upon building their reputation & branding. So that their "company name" as it were, instills a certain level of confidence.

It's not easy, & it's not fair by any means to be punished for others bad actions. But it is a reality.
 

Ihavenoskin

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I have to say that I think the contempt for RTP style RPG maker games isn't unwarranted. & the sentiment is hardly exclusive to RPG Maker style games for that matter.

Not because the RTP graphics are bad mind you. I started gaming in the days of Atari, & remember when the original Super Mario Brothers for NES was unlike anything I had seen on the home systems. So I am easy to impress, not to mention I understand how much effort it takes to make characters of the quality of the RPG maker RTPs.

However, I am of the opinion that for every one person who makes an effort to be a legitimate indie dev & make a good game with the RTP assets. There are about nine other shovelware people who can't be bothered to bug test, edit their dialogue, check for balance, etcetera, etcetera. Because while the one indie dev wants to make a good game, the nine shovelware makers just want to be able to say they have made "A Game".

& once the shovelware makers complete their "game", they will spam it all over Greenlight, New Grounds, & any other site they can find. But will never improve upon what they've done in the future, because they learn rather quickly how much effort is involved in making something better than shovelware.

So I think someone who uses RTP assets, or easily recognized assets like the Pop Horror tilesets, is probably always going to need to be cognizant of that fact, & really work upon building their reputation & branding. So that their "company name" as it were, instills a certain level of confidence.

It's not easy, & it's not fair by any means to be punished for others bad actions. But it is a reality.
Perfectly put! Can't say more than that :)
 

Strashiner

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if they hate it, then don't use it.
obey the industry.
 

TheoAllen

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These might be already mentioned way back in few pages. But I'd gonna say it again from my perspective

From what I've seen, they hate it because
* It's similar with other games. No uniqueness, because you see similar graphics in other games
* They judge that the dev might be lazy because using RTP is like no effort
* Bad games, bad mapping. But mostly comes from bad mapping I guess
* The dev just want original resource for a prestige (I used to have a friend who wants all the things to be original regardless of quality)

I don't have problem with RM games using RTP because im already expecting im gonna see RTP resource in RM games. Which also defines "this is a RM game"
 

Frogboy

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My games have thus far used slightly modified RTP. I'm happy with the way they've turned out and I've gotten mostly positive feedback on them.

With that said, they also get ignored far more than games with custom graphics even if those custom graphics just consist of squares and circles. There's definitely a bias against RTP.

But I also wouldn't attempt to sell a game with RTP either. I'm not going to use stock assets if I expect people to pay me for it. For free games, I obviously have no issue with it.
 

Semolous29

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TBH, I think the stigma for rm games isn't all that justified. I mean, I've played more good rm games than bad.
 

jonthefox

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I'd like to add that not all RTP is created equal.

I can see MV's tiles being used well in the hands of a skilled mapper, but I dislike MV's battlers - no matter how well designed the game is, the default battlers will always be a sore spot for me because they're too chibi for my taste. That's just me though - I know other people that quite enjoy them.
 

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