Next gen RPG Maker

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Then just use Unity.

Exactly why I don't really see the point on the 3D thing exclusively for RPGs... Aside from having an alternative if you only want to make RPGs...

Focus on one thing and do it properly.

Focus on the 2D RPG making perhaps... It's still cool anyways... And a 3D non-action RPG doesn't sound so appealing IMO... and for Action RPG or any other types maybe, you can just use Unity or UDK...

@Seacliff - that would probably be a hard thing to do...

 

[Tsukihime]

Exactly why I don't really see the point on the 3D thing exclusively for RPGs... Aside from having an alternative if you only want to make RPGs...


Focus on the 2D RPG making perhaps... It's still cool anyways... And a 3D non-action RPG doesn't sound so appealing IMO... and for Action RPG or any other types maybe, you can just use Unity or UDK...

Ya, you can also program it yourself from scratch or use directX or any other 3D library.


Not the point. Why do you think that if someone wants to make something, then they should make it so that anyone can make anything with it, or they shouldn't bother doing it at all?


Based on your arguments, I don't understand why you support RPG maker at all, since all it is good for is making specific types of 2D RPG's, and not even 2D RPG's in general. Might as well go use Game Maker or IGM which at least supports different types of 2D games. Or of course write your own engine from scratch using directX libraries or whatever.


I also don't see why there isn't any point in having a 3D game maker exclusively for RPG's. It's a very broad genre. How many 3D RPG's out there? A whole lot of them. You can make your own 3D final fantasy clone easily. Or maybe that's a bad idea cause you don't like final fantasy?


Just imagine RPG Maker, in 3D, with better performance and an easy scripting interface. Doesn't stop you from making your own battle systems.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

simply because I only want to do 2D RPGs... 

Aside from having an alternative if you only want to make RPGs...

as I said in the quoted line, that's also the only reason that I see for having a 3D RPG Maker...

it's just my personal opinion that I'd rather not see a 3D RPG maker, at least not in the near future... because I personally will probably find it hard to create a game in it due to the fact that it's harder to create 3D resources than 2D ones... simply a personal preference...

anyway this is getting OT...

 

[Tsukihime]

So basically people shouldn't do things that you personally have no interest in?

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I didn't say that (at least not directly)... I was just voicing out my opinion, that is that I wouldn't personally want it and I'd prefer them to focus on improvements on the 2D RPG Maker series...

 

[Probotector 200X]

I'll take a 3D engine if it at least has a built-in character generator. It'll sure take a lot of pain from making characters from scratch.

Hmmm...excellent idea! A character generator for a 3D RPG Maker would probably have lots of limits, but I'm sure it could be pretty cool. And...well, sometimes, little modifications in 3D are MUCH easier than 2D. Quick example: Alternate costumes. Ever notice how those are more common in 3D than in 2D? Look at fighting games for a good example. Also...I hear lots of MMOs actually have really awesome character appearance customization. So, something like that built in to a 3D RPG Maker would be really, really cool.

Personally, I'd like to see an 3D PC RPG Maker. I think, it would be interesting for a change. I dunno, I feel like VXAce is already super awesome, so instead of trying to improve on directly, go in another direction, at least for ONE maker. Even if they go to a 3D RPG Maker next, doesn't mean they'll never go back to 2D.

I...think that might be the likely scenario, but...I'm not particularly good at predicting things though.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

If we make a 3D RPG Maker that doesn't look like crap 3D, then making your own graphical resources will be crazy difficult. Its not going to happen. This idea that we can magically make a 3D RPG Maker that can magically be as simple as VX Ace and magically create new models for you from scratch is insane. Its not about "DON'T INNOVATE EVER" its about "BE REALISTIC"

It just isn't going to happen. Just going to 3D will necessitate it being SO MUCH more complex.

 

[Probotector 200X]

If we make a 3D RPG Maker that doesn't look like crap 3D, then making your own graphical resources will be crazy difficult. Its not going to happen. This idea that we can magically make a 3D RPG Maker that can magically be as simple as VX Ace and magically create new models for you from scratch is insane. Its not about "DON'T INNOVATE EVER" its about "BE REALISTIC"

It just isn't going to happen. Just going to 3D will necessitate it being SO MUCH more complex.

I wasn't implying that well...any program can just crank out character models. I was thinking of something like Ace's sprite generator, which can't make monsters or very many non-human humanoids, or have green people, or various kinds of outfits and hairstyles, or whatever...without importing stuff. I admit I don't know much about a lot of stuff involved in created video games or well any kind of software, but I don't see why a 3D RPG Maker couldn't have a character editor like an MMO, or Soul Calibur 3-4-5, used to make actors for your game.

For instance:

Take all the outfits and accessories and hairstyles from VX Ace's character generator, convert them into 3D items, and I THINK that's less customization options than a typical MMO. MMOs are extremely dependent and temporary, so having that feature in an RPG MAKER would just be...cool.

Like I said, I'm ignorant on lots of things, but what I'm saying is this:

A 3D RPG maker, uses a character customization appearance system like an MMO or Soul Calibur 3/4/5 to create actors and NPCs. It's mostly for making humans, but could be used for elves, and winged races, etc.

That's all I'm talking about...I think a 3D RPG Maker with the same functionality as Ace would be difficult and unlikely. I'm...willing to accept that, after all, I do still have VXAce...

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Does anyone realize how much more complex a 3d model is to animate than a 2d sprite?

EDIT: Let me restate because I know I'm coming off a bit catty here.

Its not likely to happen because the people who are suggesting it are not aware of how complex it would have to be. It gets frustrating to listen to people tell us its because we are too lazy to innovate, or that its a simple thing to do, just make it "Just like Ace but 3D". It doesn't WORK like that. Just going 3D would require HUGE changes in the way it runs.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Also just realized this is in offtopic. When will people learn that anything about RPG Maker is by definition, not off topic?

 

[Chrome]

I Dont see the future RM going 3d, It is too complex and the whole RM philosophy is to make it easy for kids but powerful enough for dev. But I do expect the next RM to support more resolutions and support more platforms. Ace is honestly pretty powerful as it is. 

 

[Tsukihime]

Its not likely to happen because the people who are suggesting it are not aware of how complex it would have to be. It gets frustrating to listen to people tell us its because we are too lazy to innovate, or that its a simple thing to do, just make it "Just like Ace but 3D". It doesn't WORK like that. Just going 3D would require HUGE changes in the way it runs.

Then can you explain how complex it is so we have a better idea?

I really don't understand why just because it's 3D, it has to be difficult.

Sure, you can't have Ace Editor and suddenly manage 3D objects, but I doubt anyone is expecting that either.

Unity is not difficult. Takes some time to learn the concepts and play with the tutorials, but it cuts down development time significantly. The interface is pretty nice as well, just like how RM's interface is pretty nice.

Some people also argue about 3D models. It has nothing to do with the fact that 3D materials are much more difficult to create than 2D materials. I can't make a decent 2D map nor can I create any decent looking 2D sprites either, but that doesn't matter because I can just pay someone else who does have the skills to do it. How difficult it is to use a piece of software is not dictated by the user's own talents, and it would be especially questionable to take users with no particular talent in one field and argue that the software is too difficult because it cannot cater to people with no skills.

 

[hian]

I'd like a "2.5d" engine that could produce graphics like breath of fire 3-4, final fantasy tactics - that is to say, simple 3d environments with 2d sprites for characters.

3d design doesn't have to so complicated, as countless map makers in many older games(tony hawk, tenchu etc) demonstrate.

Creating resources wouldn't have to be so complicated either. Just have a generator that allows you to assemble, or pick from pre-assembled, simple geometric shapes and slap 2d textures on the shapes.

A generator like that could even open up for creation of 3d characters as well.

This way the users could still employ their 2d design skills to design new resources while having a 3d output for their games.

Keeping the entire effort grid based would make it even easier(maybe add a function that allows you to customize grid size).

I see absolutely no reason why this can't be done.

Personally I'd welcome it with open arms.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Some people also argue about 3D models. It has nothing to do with the fact that 3D materials are much more difficult to create than 2D materials. I can't make a decent 2D map nor can I create any decent looking 2D sprites either, but that doesn't matter because I can just pay someone else who does have the skills to do it. How difficult it is to use a piece of software is not dictated by the user's own talents, and it would be especially questionable to take users with no particular talent in one field and argue that the software is too difficult because it cannot cater to people with no skills.

RPG Maker is at heart a hobbyist engine. The idea that every person who wants a custom piece of material is going to run out and pay someone to do it is absurd. Keeping things simple enough that there is a large amount of people who can create their own materials is key.

Also, seriously, contemplate animating a 3D model versus frames of a 2D sprite. The backend of scripting to accomplish that would be MUCH more complex, and therefore, more complex to people who wish to alter it. Making a new sprite style just requires a bit of spriting talent, creating a new 3D model style will require you to rework how everything animates because the animation is handled by code, not by just flipping through spritesheets. And if you want it to look better than FFVII (which has really ugly models for on map), the animation for it is going to have to be pretty complex.

RPG Maker has a lot of area to grow, but 3D just locks it into stagnation. It will be either ugly, or new things will rarely be made for it, because the pool of talent is smaller and everyone will have to rely mostly on whatever RTP we have.

@hian, what you are suggesting will create a game that looks worse than a well done 2D game. 3D is NOT > 2D. (Talking about the models part, the blocked 3D map like BoFIII etc is a bit different). On top of that, how would you tell the models to animate? Its not just slapping some boxes together, they can't just look good standing still they have to MOVE.

 

[Sailerius]

Then can you explain how complex it is so we have a better idea?

I really don't understand why just because it's 3D, it has to be difficult.

Sure, you can't have Ace Editor and suddenly manage 3D objects, but I doubt anyone is expecting that either.

Unity is not difficult. Takes some time to learn the concepts and play with the tutorials, but it cuts down development time significantly. The interface is pretty nice as well, just like how RM's interface is pretty nice.

Some people also argue about 3D models. It has nothing to do with the fact that 3D materials are much more difficult to create than 2D materials. I can't make a decent 2D map nor can I create any decent looking 2D sprites either, but that doesn't matter because I can just pay someone else who does have the skills to do it. How difficult it is to use a piece of software is not dictated by the user's own talents, and it would be especially questionable to take users with no particular talent in one field and argue that the software is too difficult because it cannot cater to people with no skills.

I'll take a stab at it as someone who has made 3D games before.

First of all, you need to make the 3D model, typically in Zbrush. This is a highly specialized skill and it takes a very experienced professional to produce a model that looks good. Heck, even many AAA games struggle to make faces that aren't disturbing-looking.

Secondly, you need to retopologize that high poly model, which is another highly specialized skill and in studios is often done by a separate person altogether (a technical artist). After that, you need to create the diffuse map, and, depending on the character's design, possibly also a specular, reflection, or emission map. At this stage, the static character is done.

Now you need to animate it. Nowadays, this is most often done with mocap, which means renting out a mocap studio, hiring mocap actors, and having animators to touch up the final product. This is another long and laborious task that requires trained professionals.

Rinse and repeat for every character.

Now let's put it in the game. 3D animations are a lot more complex than 2D ones. You have to deal with blending, cross fading, clipping, etc. Not to mention physics. Oh yeah, and when you're working with 3 dimensions, you're not talking about simple cartesian math anymore; you need to deal with quaternions, a kind of imaginary number that you have to use in order to compose 3D rotations.

How many people here can perform linear algebra using imaginary numbers? Not many. How many people have the funds to rent a mocap studio to make their custom characters? Not many.

EDIT: On top of that, in two years, all your graphics look hideously out of date due to advances in the start of the art.

 

[Milennin]

I'd like to see another 2D engine, but with more and better eventing options (like RM2K/RM2K3 had), more mapping layers, and be able to run more processes at once without causing lag. A built-in side-view combat system similar to what RM2K3's combat looks like would be an awesome bonus.


Basically a mix of the best of RM2K3 with the best of VX Ace.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I'd like to see another 2D engine, but with more and better eventing options (like RM2K/RM2K3 had), more mapping layers, and be able to run more processes at once without causing lag. A built-in side-view combat system similar to what RM2K3's combat looks like would be an awesome bonus.

Basically a mix of the best of RM2K3 with the best of VX Ace.

What eventing options do you find are missing? I haven't used 2k3 in years and can't remember anything in specific, and I would like to get a list of event

commands that disappeared between versions.

(the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the variables as pointers thing.)

 

[Perihelion]

Why would anyone even want a 3D RPG Maker? If you have the skills to make 3D games, just use Unity. The Unity store has tons of asset packs you can buy if you can't make 3D assets.

 

[Espon]

Main reason I'm not all interested in a 3D RPG Maker is because of the amount of work that would be required to create your own models, forcing you to rely almost entirely on the RTP.

A 3D character creator tool would be awesome, though.  Some games and programs have a huge variety of options stretching beyond just choosing an outfit, allowing you to create millions of different combinations.

What eventing options do you find are missing? I haven't used 2k3 in years and can't remember anything in specific, and I would like to get a list of event commands that disappeared between versions.

The only one I can think of was "Wait for Completion" which would cause the event to pause until all movement routes were completed.  It made it easier doing cutscenes with moving characters, especially if you had a player that would mash the button to skip text.

The one thing I really want to see make a return is XP's mapping.

 

[Tsukihime]

RPG Maker is at heart a hobbyist engine. The idea that every person who wants a custom piece of material is going to run out and pay someone to do it is absurd. Keeping things simple enough that there is a large amount of people who can create their own materials is key.


Also, seriously, contemplate animating a 3D model versus frames of a 2D sprite. The backend of scripting to accomplish that would be MUCH more complex, and therefore, more complex to people who wish to alter it. Making a new sprite style just requires a bit of spriting talent, creating a new 3D model style will require you to rework how everything animates because the animation is handled by code, not by just flipping through spritesheets. And if you want it to look better than FFVII (which has really ugly models for on map), the animation for it is going to have to be pretty complex.


RPG Maker has a lot of area to grow, but 3D just locks it into stagnation. It will be either ugly, or new things will rarely be made for it, because the pool of talent is smaller and everyone will have to rely mostly on whatever RTP we have.

I guess I did lose sight of the fact that most users are just hobbyists and that's who the maker is probably targeted at.


I'd prefer if they defined a standard animation format, perhaps using an existing format that is widely supported by existing 3D graphic software. I don't have much experience with creating 3D games, but after extracting dozens of 3D games and looking at how they organize their data, that seems to be the more common route. No need to reinvent the wheel when there are 3D libraries out there that can handle animations and existing animation tools. Speaking of animations, would have been nice if RM came with an animation import function as well to support common 2D animation formats. But maybe in the next iteration.


But yes, in the end, given that the audience consists mainly of hobby game devs I would expect most of the resources to come from some stock they provide or just blatant game rips. Though I don't see a problem with that either; plenty of RM game devs use the RTP as well.


After all, if it's a hobby game, then RTP or not shouldn't matter right?


@Sailerius, yes, making models and animating them is hard, but I'd like to think the game maker software's only job is to make it easy to take those models and put it in the game and have it behave the way you expect it to. Could go with ragdolls or whatever as long as it functions correctly. It is up to 3D modeling and animating tools to make the modeling process easier for the users.


I'd like to imagine a good number of 3D artists do not need to spend all their time playing with matrices. If they are...tools need to improve so they don't need to care about all that math. Complex calculations is something the computer should be doing, not me. I just need to understand the theory behind it and know how to use get what I want.