No Stats

[Shuji]

Okay here is the thing
What would you think of not having any of your stats to grow as you level up, and the only way to increase them is with weapon and armors?

Because I think it's more easy balancing the game thinking only about the armor/weapon stats.
What do you think?

 

[bgillisp]

Only problem I see is it defeats the point of a level up if  you do that, as you might as well keep everyone at lvl 1 for all it matters then. But, it can work I'm sure with careful design. Biggest issue I can see is coming up with a reason for random fights to even exist then.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

The big question would be: What does leveling up do?


If it doesn't do anything, then yeah, why level up at all?

 

[Shuji]

Levelling can let you gain acces to more powerfull weapons/armors 

 

[bgillisp]

I'd suggest maybe looking at how polarized opinions were on ff13-3 on this, as in that game random fights didn't give EXP (so you didn't power up from them). That might give you an idea how people feel about it.

 

[Millefeuille]

 Biggest issue I can see is coming up with a reason for random fights to even exist then.

The good thing about battles is that they don't need to be about stat progression. They should be an obstacle that tests the player's strategic ability with stat progression existing as a secondary goal. Depending on the nature of the game, it might feel better to be rewarded by a progression of the story or a change of environment.

You could also play the comedy option and just let levels do absolutely nothing other than exist as an arbitrary number. You could call it 'subversive' and some people would latch on to that.

The big question would be: What does leveling up do?

Yeah, assuming that it does something at all, there's still stuff you can do with levels like unlocking skills or creating levels as a prerequisite for some equipment. I like the idea and think that stats don't necessarily have a place in all role playing games. They're more of a relic that carried over from tabletop RPGs and have been kept for little reason other than

having always been there.

 

[bgillisp]

The good thing about battles is that they don't need to be about stat progression. They should be an obstacle that tests the player's strategic ability with stat progression existing as a secondary goal. Depending on the nature of the game, it might feel better to be rewarded by a progression of the story or a change of environment.

Again, see FF13-3. They tried that, and many fans got upset, as they felt the random fights were pointless.

Yeah, assuming that it does something at all, there's still stuff you can do with levels like unlocking skills or creating levels as a prerequisite for some equipment. I like the idea and think that stats don't necessarily have a place in all role playing games. They're more of a relic that carried over from tabletop RPGs and have been kept for little reason other than

having always been there.

I've never understood why skills or equipment should *ever* be level dependent. Why should I have to be level 10 to pick up that axe? What, I don't have the strength to carry it until I hit level 10 or something? Now sure, it makes little sense to be casting Awesome rain of fire at level 1 (or insert high powered magic spell here), but if you set up the damage formula right you can make it still work and semi-reasonable.

Edit: However, I will say this in the end. Make what *you* want to make. Just be prepared for others to criticize it or not understand it. For example, I made my game a game where level ups are really slow, and some dislike it. But, I did it as I felt it dumb that a hero goes from level 2 to level 7 beating up rats for an hour. So, just be prepared for criticism, but in the end it comes down to what you want to make and find fun.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

IMHO, stat based equipment makes much more sense than simply level based equipments... Especially if your stats are like physical strength etc.


If the only thing that leveling do is unlocking more equipment, I'd probably not play it. If it's stat based, then at least the stats do more than just allow me to buy stronger equipments. It also strengthens me as I grind for money to actually buy the new equipments. I already have to gain enough money to buy an equipment, then you also want me to "level up" too when leveling up does nothing to help me farm money faster? That seems to be too much of a grind-fest for me.

 

[Shuji]

Well, FF13 saga wasn't that great of a game xD

When I paly a game like Skyrim, or other RPGs I don't care about stats. Whene I level up I think: "Now I can spend point to learn that new skill/buy new equipment"

 

[Millefeuille]

Again, see FF13-3. They tried that, and many fans got upset, as they felt the random fights were pointless.

Yeah, it's definitely a divisive game and is somewhat of a throwback to mixed reactions when FF8 was initially released. When a long-running series sets a precedent for what to expect, deviation from the norm can leave a vocal chunk of the fans with a sour taste. If you communicate these ideas as a selling point for an independent game that has no established history, people are more receptive in general. You'll still create a division among people, but you have the luxury of building up a player's preconceptions around whatever you want without having to be held accountable to existing fans.

That said, if there's no endgame in the design or you don't give people a good enough reason to fight a lot of battles without triggering basic reward centers, it won't matter. Like you said, the battles are just going to look superficial, in other words, pointless!

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

If ur really gonna pursue that, at least make earning money easy so that we could actually buy the equipments for our level rather than being able to buy only equipments that for like 5 or 10 levels below coz the ones for our level cost too much. Else it would be too much of a grind fest.

 

[bgillisp]

Yeah, it's definitely a divisive game and is somewhat of a throwback to mixed reactions when FF8 was initially released. When a long-running series sets a precedent for what to expect, deviation from the norm can leave a vocal chunk of the fans with a sour taste. If you communicate these ideas as a selling point for an independent game that has no established history, people are more receptive in general. You'll still create a division among people, but you have the luxury of building up a player's preconceptions around whatever you want without having to be held accountable to existing fans.

That said, if there's no endgame in the design or you don't give people a good enough reason to fight a lot of battles without triggering basic reward centers, it won't matter. Like you said, the battles are just going to look superficial, in other words, pointless!

This. You will have the advantage of not having too many previous expectations, so if you really want to do it, go for it. Just make sure to put in a reason for random fights and communicate what that is well. In my example, FF13-3 did have a reason for random fight still, and once I understood it I engaged in them too, but it took me a few hours of playtime to understand what it was as I felt it was not communicated well (and, I think many others felt that way too).

Though, you know, I could see this working pretty well if you had no random fights, and just plot fights, and maybe an optional zone for the random fights in case the player wanted to earn more money or something?

 

[Shuji]

Yeah. Well I always loved a game that let me choice between a lot or equipments, and that is what I want to do.

I don't have a story yet, so I don't know if random fights will have a reason to exist or if there will be only plot fights.

But I think that the player earn money throught sub-quest. I never loved grinding xD

 

[bgillisp]

Yeah. Well I always loved a game that let me choice between a lot or equipments, and that is what I want to do.

Then go for it. Like I said a few posts up,

Edit: However, I will say this in the end. Make what *you* want to make. Just be prepared for others to criticize it or not understand it. For example, I made my game a game where level ups are really slow, and some dislike it. But, I did it as I felt it dumb that a hero goes from level 2 to level 7 beating up rats for an hour. So, just be prepared for criticism, but in the end it comes down to what you want to make and find fun.

 

[Wavelength]

If the main reason you're doing this is to have a more lenient target for balance, then just make the stat gains for level-ups fairly minor (~10% of characters' "level 1" stats per level), and have the characters start at fairly high levels (somewhere between 15 and 30 for starting characters... and dynamically set characters' levels when they join later equal to, say, the highest level in your party) so that they're not gaining level after level (and thus lots of stats, making it harder to balance) in the early part of the game.

This will still allow the player to feel like they are making progression (and thus avoid the "why am I fighting non-boss battles at all?" feeling) while allowing you to focus the real power into things like weapons and armor and avoid the balancing difficulties that can come with large per-level stat gains.

 

[Evalis]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are doing this for a futuristic style game - I can't really see the point of not tying damage to levelups otherwise. For balancing purposes leveling is much easier to manage, since all characters gain the same xp, but aren't guarenteed to have the same items.

In any case.. if you do this, consider tying stats to level, if you want to justify gear equipment. That is to say you need so much intelligence to use Hacker Tool 7.0 or so much strength to lift a rocket launcher, and so on. Alternatively, you could just make one stat or two all important, say intelligence or agility. Using ATB or tying hit rates to level ups with a system like this could work well. So Joe blow picks up his first gun and is awful, compared to Zack the Space Ace.

 

[JosephSeraph]

LV. can have several uses besides providing stat ups.

Crit rate could be calculated like (crit rate) + (a.level - b.level)

Status abilities could likewise factor level into calculation.

Levels can unlock skills.

Levels can unlock nodes into your sphere board or license grid.

Levels can be featured into your damage or healing formulae. Something like (damage) * (a.level / b.level) <- although this would be rather unbalanced.

It can also play roles outside of combat:

Levels unlock quests.

Levels unlock different reactions from NPCs.

Levels increase the items sold on shops

Etc.