CharcoalKidd

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I'm looking for non-traditional sins to theme some levels around. There's the obvious Big Seven:

  • Lust
  • Envy
  • Greed
  • Pride
  • Wrath
  • Sloth
  • Gluttony
But I've also heard some interesting minor ones:

  • Mirth (presumption with one's own happiness)
  • Apathy (detachment from the world)
  • Risk (think gambling)
  • Cloth (as in appearances)
  • Logic (inability to appreciate chaotic or inefficient elements)
Thoughts and suggestions?
 

Warpmind

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Hmmm, the RPG Legends of the Wulin uses ten Daoist Virtues - five Chivalrous, five Selfish. The system doesn't use "sins", as such, because it doesn't judge people in so polarized a manner as "Good" and "Evil" like D&D and other systems do. You might be able to do something with that.

The Chivalrous Virtues (included for comparison) are as follow:
Benevolence represents altruism and kindness; healing the sick out of compassion, saving a child from a burning building and otherwise saving the meek from their misfortunes.

Force represents power and skill - not so much destructive power as mastery over oneself and one's abilities.
Honor is about proper behavior and honoring debts; showing propriety and speaking the truth when those are of less benefit to yourself.

Loyalty is placing the needs and wishes of your superiors above those of your own - parents, teachers, employers, royalty, the very country itself - whether they are present or not.

Righteousness is a matter of justice and uprightness; exposing corruption, tracking down criminals, or convincing rulers to pass laws which treat the general population in a fairer manner.

The Selfish Virtues (more comparable to what we might deem sinful behavior):
Ferocity is a lack of restraint; essentially, letting out the big, green rage monster at the drop of a hat and reveling in the destruction.
Individualism places one's own desires over all others' - defying one's superiors or letting Bad Things happen to others because doing so can be profitable.

Obsession can basically be summed up with "...at any cost". Whatever one's goals, collateral damage is irrelevant so long as the objective is achieved.
Revenge is Honor's dark twin - any slight is repaid with interest; no insult or injury can be allowed to pass. Any offense, real or perceived, calls for blood.

Ruthlessness explicitly seeks to improve one's station at the expense of others. Where Individualism walks past a dying man in the street, Ruthlessness steals his boots and kicks him into the ditch.


Perhaps this perspective is useful somehow? :)
 

DragonVine

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Cloth might be better stated as vanity. Vanity - being self obssesed, especially with ones own apperance.

I'd also say that logic in and of itself couldn't be seen as a sin. Logic without emphathy is cold, and thus you could theme your level around that.

It'd be interesting to see how you'd structure your game around these things.
 

Yui

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Mirth makes me think of a wine drinking Buddha (I know none of the Buddha ever got drunk) I think that would be a neat enemy, he'd be sitting all the time with a big vase filled with wine, always smiling and singing. His attacks and everything could be centered around drunkenness and pagan ceremonies.

Infact if you wanna go that route there are alot of mythos with various deities that embody various sins.

and what about sins such as Murder, Manipulation, Witchcraft, Perversion (I guess lust would fit here), apathy, and cruelty. These would be interesting to see as well!!! I look forward to see what you come up with.
 

trouble time

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Mirth makes me think of a wine drinking Buddha (I know none of the Buddha ever got drunk) I think that would be a neat enemy, he'd be sitting all the time with a big vase filled with wine, always smiling and singing. His attacks and everything could be centered around drunkenness and pagan ceremonies.

Infact if you wanna go that route there are alot of mythos with various deities that embody various sins.

and what about sins such as Murder, Manipulation, Witchcraft, Perversion (I guess lust would fit here), apathy, and cruelty. These would be interesting to see as well!!! I look forward to see what you come up with.
To add to this, the sin of witchcraft in particular comes from a different context to what most people think today, the sin of witchcraft is exchanging one's soul for supernatural powers specifically. Some sort of Lovecraftian cult of sorts could fit the bill nicely.
 
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Braydon

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I really don't understand the seven sins... Why is pride on the list instead of vanity? Shouldn't gluttony just be part of greed?
 

headdie

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Vanity is a facet of pride so that makes sense

technically yes gluttony and greed are the same thing so in light of the above that doesn't make sense lol
 

captainproton

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I think greed is separate from gluttony because gluttony is more about unrestrained indulgence, while greed is more about possession. A gluttonous person may not care about someone else having something, so long as it doesn't interfere with their appetites, while a greedy person only cares about "MINE."

You could almost put the Sins on a color wheel, transitioning from one to another.
 

trouble time

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I think greed is separate from gluttony because gluttony is more about unrestrained indulgence, while greed is more about possession. A gluttonous person may not care about someone else having something, so long as it doesn't interfere with their appetites, while a greedy person only cares about "MINE."

You could almost put the Sins on a color wheel, transitioning from one to another.
This, think of greed as hoarding of wealth and gluttony as hoarding food and drink and other pleasures. Now this is something most people don't know but the traditional sin of gluttony includes overindulgence of any physical desire, in some cases they even include sexual overindulgence, Lust is about unrestrained desire, as in lust for anything, gluttony is about acting on those desires too much, and for clarity envy is about hating other people because they accomplished or possess what you want.

It's also important to note that though they're the called "Sins" they're actually traits we all have that can cause people to sin. The basic premise is that all wrong doing is caused by an excess of any of these traits. That's why they are called the Seven Capital Vices sometimes.
 

CharcoalKidd

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This is all interesting food for thought. Logic as a sin is definitely meant in excess. On it's own it's a fantastic virtue, but too much can mar your experiences with less logical and more colorful things. 

On the same hand, I should clarify the word 'Sin' here is meant 'in the most negative capacity', because @trouble time is right. These are traits present in everyone. It's the excess of these traits that makes them "sinful". Vices is a much better word for it.

@Yui – Mirth as the drinking Buddha is something I may have to steal. That's a really vivid idea, thank you for that. ^o^
 
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captainproton

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Also, apathy could be considered an aspect of Sloth.
 

DragonVine

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It can even be argued that six of the seven deadly sins are actually subsets of Pride in some form.

Envy - beleving that you deserves what someone else has (otherwise known as coveting), thus elevating yourself above others, which is pride.

Gluttony - eating in excess without concerns about others (or anything in excess, not just food), thus elevating ones own desire for food above people, which is another form of pride.

Greed - same deal as gluttony, really.

Every one of the others can be traced back to pride in some way. Or to put it another way - all of them could be seen as pride in action in different circumstances.

In a game mechanic, Pride could be the last level, or most evil character.

In any case, all seven sins can be linked to each other in some way, especially pride.

This, think of greed as hoarding of wealth and gluttony as hoarding food and drink and other pleasures. Now this is something most people don't know but the traditional sin of gluttony includes overindulgence of any physical desire, in some cases they even include sexual overindulgence, Lust is about unrestrained desire, as in lust for anything, gluttony is about acting on those desires too much, and for clarity envy is about hating other people because they accomplished or possess what you want.
I like your definitions.
 

CrazyCrab

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In the past I worked on a project where as an ''inquisitor'' of some sort you had to hunt down the 72 demons from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Key_of_Solomon) so I thought about all of this quite a lot, segregating demons into categories (aka the 7 sins) and then creating subcategories for each one of them. Each one had a specialty, difficulty depended on the demon's rank, some were friendly, manipulative, all that stuff. And nope, I'm really not a cultist.  ;)

Anyway, I think that no matter how much you try each ''minor'' sin will be somehow linked to an existing major sin, so I'd recommend just branching out from the 7, having minor ones linked but not based on them. In any case, here are some aspects that could be considered minor sins:

- Manipulation - the need to control and know everything about everyone to an unnatural extent. Stalkers, secret services, all that stuff.

- ''Leeching'' or Freeloading - the need for others to do everything for you. Not just being lazy, but purposefully making others do your chores.

- Squander or being wasteful - losing things due to negligence and inaction, definitely linked to sloth but probably more severe than spending the day watching YouTube, ;) Also, purposefully destroying things just so that others won't get them when you don't need them. Scorched earth mentality.

- Absolution - the refusal to change one's mind even when presented with solid evidence. Also, racism (all X are evil, no matter who they are), etc.

- Depravation - the goriest and nastiest stuff goes there, simply for the shock value or some perverse ideal. Calculated and cold, unlike wrath - probably more linked to lust as it's linked with the worst kinds of crimes. Fate/Zero had an interesting character, aka the Mage that is a perfect example of just how depraved one can be without being furious while thinking that all the actions make perfect sense.

- Irresponsibility - drunk driving or fighting monsters under drugs? Same thing, putting others in danger because of completely unnecessary and avoidable actions, at least most of the time.

Anyway, been a while since I thought about that stuff. If I'll come up with more I'll post them here.

And yeah @DragonVine, if you look at some documents and stuff like that Pride is usually the most severe sin in most religious texts simply because it's the one from which most sins are born. Some would be a stretch, but almost all can be linked back, no matter how silly the connection looks. Also, in Christianity, each of the Deadly sins has a ''patron demon'', Pride having the most powerful one - Lucifer, or Satan. Few have heard of the demons that are linked to Gluttony or Sloth. ;)

EDIT: Also, a little tip - if you're looking for dungeons / quests based around the deadly sins having a look at those 72 demons may be worthwhile, some of them have awesome back stories that are just perfect for a quest to be centered around them - ex: ''Ose – he brings insanity to any person the conjurer wishes, making him/her believe that he/she is the creature or thing the magician desired, or makes that person think he is a king and wearing a crown, or a Pope. ''
 
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DragonVine

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@CrazyCrab - exactly what I was getting at. I was looking for the rights words, and you found them! :)

I studied theology in university, so it's something I've thought about before. While the patron demon is not in every sect of Christianty, it makes for a really good idea for a game mechanic in the final bosses in levels. Having a patron demon to fight at the end of every thematic level would make for some epic boss fights. :p

Man, I have some ideas for some villians now. :D
 

captainproton

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Some lesser demons for you:

-Axegoth, demon of too much perfume

-Pottyus, demon of not washing your hands

-Tumblorg, demon of idiot opinions

-Sh't'h'd, demon of tossing things on the floor when shopping.
 

headdie

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instead of a single boss demon you could have multiple which come together for a final boss fight which represent different aspects working together, perhaps besting them in battle/their schemes at some points during the game and them escaping. Off the top of my head 5 would work with the cliche pentagram for example.
 

Andar

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You should also keep in mind that the definition of "Sins" depends on the culture.


For example there were a lot of medieval or ancient cultures where it was a sin not to fight when challenged, or how some people became parias just for working with garbage and so on.


So depending on the general context, there is a lot that can be declared as sins, even thing we consider to be good virtues weren't always considered the same in history.
 

Yui

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This is all interesting food for thought. Logic as a sin is definitely meant in excess. On it's own it's a fantastic virtue, but too much can mar your experiences with less logical and more colorful things. 

On the same hand, I should clarify the word 'Sin' here is meant 'in the most negative capacity', because @trouble time is right. These are traits present in everyone. It's the excess of these traits that makes them "sinful". Vices is a much better word for it.

@Yui – Mirth as the drinking Buddha is something I may have to steal. That's a really vivid idea, thank you for that. ^o^
You're fully welcome to it!!!
 

CzarSquid

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From what I understand about sin in the Christian world is that anything that goes against the commandments of God is a sin in some degree. Sins replace the desire of one away from God and focuses on some human flaw. These can have physical consequences attach but the big one is disqualifying themselves to enter into heaven. The 7 non-traditional sins are much easier to recognize and people tend to use them to exaggerate them.

Maybe you can even turn the 7 sins into unique character traits who's goals fall in one of those categories. I think a adventurous thief who just loves collecting pearls to build a pearl shrine for his dead younger sister is much more interesting than a generic greedy CEO who loves money so much he will bathe in it. They both lose focus on god but obviously the CEO is going to be appear more villainous than the thief because the thief could be doing it with good intentions.

Then again, it solely depends on one's definition of sin. Some groups may consider certain substances like food/drink a sin. I know that the jewish faith, food is very important because the substance became a part of you when you ate something. Eating a pig is consider insult to humanity and unclean. This is why repenting of sins are sometimes called a cleansing.

I hope this helps in some way.
 

Tigersong

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Actually, the use of magic is a sin, by the Christian definition. It's acquiring spiritual power from a source other than God, and the only other source is the satanic realm. Food for thought.
 

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