Obfuscating Code

[cayenne_spicy]

Hey, like I said, I'm new. Look at my post count. I don't know what's happened or hasn't happened. The analogy was specific for a reason a person might state as an attempted justification of going for a leisurely neighborhood stroll decked out like a Navy Seal.

We're getting somewhere now, though. So, code theft has occurred before. What happened with that? Was it a situation of people falsely claiming to be the originator? Was there a monetary loss incurred by the actual originator or just the possibility of a loss of credibility? How or why would someone side with a code thief over the original creator if the original creator is able to provide evidence they were the creator (I'm not saying they didn't do it, I'm just baffled as to their rationale for their position)?

The big question: Does obfuscating the code prevent code theft? Others seem to think it doesn't; then we've had the rebuttal about a door lock not stopping a determined thief but it does stop a casual miscreant; both are good points. On the other hand, what happened to the code thieves of the past? Were they proven in their thievery, pariah'ed out of the greater community, subject to legal ramifications?

 

[The Stranger]

Were they proven in their thievery, pariah'ed out of the greater community, subject to legal ramifications?

Nothing was done. Their work can still be bought.

 

[Yanfly]

Read here

 

[TheoAllen]

How or why would someone side with a code thief over the original creator if the original creator is able to provide evidence they were the creator (I'm not saying they didn't do it, I'm just baffled as to their rationale for their position)?

I will answer this part. Some people believed that a specific part of the code is not actually stolen. This requires a bigger picture to see what actually happened. Thus the obfuscation is just the best course of the future action (which is now).

 

[chaucer]

Regarding "I don't like obfuscated code."

I don't like it either. But it doesn't matter if I don't like it. The obfuscation is here to stay because it's here to protect the code created by the team members from being stolen. Whether or not you think the obfuscation will protect against that is irrelevant because that's just how it's going to be.

Let's put this into a different perspective. An artist creates a piece of work in Photoshop. They have a PSD file where all of its layer information is stored, color settings, etc. What they release, instead, is a PNG of the file. You don't see the public having an outcry because the artist didn't release the PSD. Whether or not the artist releases the PSD is up to the artist.

Demanding the artist to release their PSD when it is perfectly within their right to not wish to do so? I don't think that's quite fair.

I don't think this is accurate, because if an artist releases a png file, it's technically still possible to edit the png file relatively easily, if the end user see's fit. Where-as if you obfuscate code, it is not relatively easy to edit the code( but it is possible ), I'd say obfuscating code, would be more akin to leaving a splash mark on your image, granted, that would leave the image unusable, so maybe not the best example, but I feel it's more accurate. Also I have no problem with code obfuscation as I've stated many, times by now, I don't blame anyone for doing so, everyone has their right to release their code as they see fit, and having had code of my own stolen in the past I can understand the use case.

Regarding "How are we supposed to learn JS now?"

There's 61 plugins that came free with RPG Maker MZ. They have aliases, they have all sorts of methods of teaching you if you need to learn by example. Them being in Japanese has little to no bearing because the function names are in English last I checked. These aren't made by nobodies in the Japanese community. They're made by many, many, many prolific Japanese plugin developers. Download any Japanese MV game and you'll see the same names recurring in them the same you see mine recurring in Western MV games.

Why does everyone keep referencing my post without fully reading my message I literally said( and re-stated twice ) that VS plugins are only from one group, and there are other plugins out there to reference, I'm not making a case for the plugins to be de-obfuscated, I said this too, I'm not going to re-quote my message again, but it's there. This was honestly the only part that I read that urged me to reply, if you're going to reference what I said, reference the full thing( unless someone else referenced the whole aliases and teaching by example, but as far as I know I'm the only one who stated this! ), don't just cherry pick the part that makes me seem like I'm against you cause I'm not, I'm neutral here, I've said that several times as well. de-obfuscating your code benefits me in no way, and there's plenty of other materials for others to learn from, I've said it in the same post I mentioned alias' and learning from other peoples code.

There's also the libraries being made by other plugin developers out there. Galv, Hime, Shaz, Atoa, Hudell, MogHunter, etc.

No love for chaucer from anyone </3 T__T when do I get a seat at the big boy table! D: lol.

You guys have ALLLLLLLLLLLLL these options to learn from, and yet, you still demand to learn directly from VisuStella, when I said I have no intentions on betraying the trust of my teammates and releasing their code to the public? Sorry, but I just can't do that.

I agree, there's already plenty of examples for other people to use/learn from ^^ and from what ramza stated, he said it was relatively easy to work with the VS team to write a compatibility patch. There is no obligation to publicize the source code, you are free to release code in any way you see fit.

Regarding "Obfuscation isn't 100% Secure Anyway"

And your point? The lock on your house's front door isn't foolproof. Any burglar who wants to break into your house will have a way to do it.

I agree here as well( to an extent, a murderer can't just walk into an un-obfuscated plugin and murder everyone in a house, but they can walk into an unlocked door. Sorry for the dark reference lol ), locks are more for a matter of privacy imo, as is obfuscation, while it is easy to crack, I'm not making a point against it. It can easily be de-obfuscated by those the knowledge to do so, but for the less experienced, it may deter them from proceeding any further than merely opening the plugin. But again, that's all a lock on your house does too

Even the best encryption in the world can be defeated, nothing is un-hackable. That said, again, I don't have any complaint about the code being obfuscated, I honestly didn't even know it was obfuscated till I read this thread, lol( I don't much keep up with other people's plugins .-. ). I have no quarrel here.

In the US, the Bill of Rights provides (to debatable extents we won't dive into, lol) the right to bear arms. In most situations, this means that a person who has the proper licensing and permitting to do so can go on long walks through the city loaded with rifles and handguns. Why, someone might ask. I have the right, the person says. Okay, the other asks, but having the right doesn't make it make sense to do it, so what is the logic behind what you're doing here - what's the point of going for a walk armed to the teeth? Well, the person says, someone might try to rob me, so now I can protect myself. Did anyone ever try to rob you before this? No they didn't, the person says, but they won't try to do it now, will they.

yes.

Joking aside, you can't say that said persons point to walk around town "armed to the teeth" so he doesn't get robbed is wrong right? I mean, if you were a robber would you try to rob that dude? better yet, would you try to rob anyone who happens to be around that dude even? ._. lol Just sayin. xD

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I will answer this part. Some people believed that a specific part of the code is not actually stolen. This requires a bigger picture to see what actually happened. Thus the obfuscation is just the best course of the future action (which is now).

And people who believe that don't know what they are talking about in my opinion, because large parts of the code were identical, and it wasn't just Yanfly's code, or even Yanfly alone who identified parts of it, but other coders as well.

 

[TheoAllen]

And people who believe that don't know what they are talking about in my opinion, because large parts of the code were identical, and it wasn't just Yanfly's code, or even Yanfly alone who identified parts of it, but other coders as well.

And as I said, this requires a bigger picture to see what happened as some of them who argued also a prolific plugin maker we all know and it was not just one. Although, I won't bring this one-year-old topic back to the surface since we have already moved on from this and this was the most emotionally draining. So, let's drop it.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

And as I said, this requires a bigger picture to see what happened as some of them who argued also a prolific plugin maker we all know and it was not just one. Although, I won't bring this one-year-old topic back to the surface since we have already moved on from this and this was the most emotionally draining. So, let's drop it.

No, I actually think this is the core of the problem: a bunch of plugin creators have beef with Yanfly. Why? I have no clue to be honest. I can hypothesize but that requires breaking the rules I put in place in the first post.

It feels like they look for a way to harm him. No matter how much evidence that there is that the person was stealing code, they harp on this idea that he was accusing people who were innocent, and that he is a big meanie, but I've looked into it myself, and the code is crazy identical. In some cases it literally had the same functions in the same order written with the same names.

There is one discord server where one of the thieves still advertises their work, and they do nothing about it.

Stuff like this is the problem with the RPG Maker community, not VS obfuscating their code.

Also, I don't like this attitude of going "oh but there were several people who think Yanfly was accusing innocent people and if you see the bigger picture" and then trying to step it back and not talk about it. Throwing shade at someone then refusing to engage with the shade you just threw just builds rumors.

 

[chaucer]

Hmm I wouldn't mind having beef with yanfly, or anyone else for that matter, heck even if It was just me :Q

Spoiler: who wants some beef?! :D

yum!

again joking aside, Here's some advice aimed toward anyone who is willing to listen, you can't please everyone ^^ no matter what you do, there will always be someone who has a problem with you, or what you do, just don't let it get to you, you do you, and be content with that, you can't make everyone happy. That said, even if the code was obfuscated, it'd be relatively easy to determine if the code was stolen or not still. you may not be able to read the functions, but you can read the content of said functions by prettifying the code, which i believe is not against the terms of use of the plugin?( I could be wrong, someone correct me if I am ) After that you'd be able to see some similarities to someone elses code(
just account for the oddly named variables ).

 

[TheoAllen]

Also, I don't like this attitude of going "oh but there were several people who think Yanfly was accusing innocent people and if you see the bigger picture" and then trying to step it back and not talk about it. Throwing shade at someone then refusing to engage with the shade you just threw just builds rumors.

I don't deny this and I actually agree. However, the reason why I step back is that the rules you put as well as the general forum rules that states whatever happened in discord stay in discord.

Then how shall we proceed?

 

[cayenne_spicy]

I have to say, as a newb around here, having read lots of threads about all this, seeing lots of responses happen, and then having reviewed a series of logs regarding the circumstances of the past issues of alleged code theft and the incomprehensible manner in which the scenario surrounding that was handled by involved parties...

I am immensely discouraged from even continuing to participate in the community, which would mean in all likelihood, my use of the software will be nil, because I lack the knowledge to do everything myself without asking questions and without support.

Yet, with everything I've read, I can't escape the looming intimidation of the realization that at any time, if I did happen to decide to start learning JavaScript, and working on my own plugins, if I should happen to approach a situation in my programming with a solution that is similar to one someone else has done - without ever having read their code at all - I may be subject to a drumhead and summarily executed from the community.

Frankly, I feel right now an intense fear that even me asking the questions I've asked in this thread may have a hammer of banning lurking just over my head, and that's not right. That's not right, guys.

This software is niche software. It's vitally important that the people who operate as staff of communities for this kind of thing, as well as the tenured users who newcomers will look up to, behave with composure and professional decorum. Incidents need to be investigated thoroughly, solutions need to be approached with defensible rationale, because all it takes is a little bit of drama and a few missteps in handling it before the community becomes a place where newcomers like me feel like it's in their best interest to not engage.

It raises the question:

What assurance does a newcomer like me have that they will be treated fairly here, that they will be given reasonable and rationally-defensible answers to questions, and most importantly, that they will be presumed to be a friend of the community and innocent of wrongdoings until such a moment as actual evidence is provided to the contrary?

Because, guys... the world outside of all this is filled with enough injustice, inequity, and mismanagement, that... guys, this is a recreational software. Yeah, some people might "make it big", but that's about as likely as your high school baseball player ending up playing for the Yankees. For most everyone else here, this is meant to be fun. A fun experience. A fun, happy escape from the kind of soul-crushing madness of the rest of the world. I think some people may have lost sight of that.

 

[Hudell]

some of them who argued also a prolific plugin maker we all know and it was not just one.

I don't know who you're talking about, but if yanfly said his code was stolen and people didn't believe him, then that's probably the reason he's obfuscating it now.

 

[TheoAllen]

I don't know who you're talking about, but if yanfly said his code was stolen and people didn't believe him, then that's probably the reason he's obfuscating it now.

I mean, that is exactly why I said obfuscation is the best action for now.

 

[Hudell]

if I should happen to approach a situation in my programming with a solution that is similar to one someone else has done - without ever having read their code at all - I may be subject to a drumhead and summarily executed from the community.

Those things don't happen by chance. Everyone has their own set of quirks when programming, but even if you had the exact same habits as someone else, people wouldn't just assume you copied them. The suspicion starts when the plugin behaves in the exact same way and the code has signs of multiple different habits altogether.
For example: If throughout all your plugins you always write your loops using "i++" at the end and then specifically on the code that behaves the same way as yanfly's your loop has a "++i", that raises a red flag. If there are multiple red flags like that, it's clear that the code was copied from somewhere.

Frankly, I feel right now an intense fear that even me asking the questions I've asked in this thread may have a hammer of banning lurking just over my head, and that's not right. That's not right, guys.

That's only because of the conspiracy theories.

 

[Anyone]

@cayenne_spicy Dude, Yanfly's as well as SEVERAL other coders working for VS have had their code stolen before. Your analogy literally makes no sense because code thieves have targeted them before, and some parts of the RM community (not here, but there are people here who are part of those communities) sided with the code thieves over the original coders.

Accusing an entire community (a certain discord) of protecting "thieves" and disparaging them in a thread you explicitly said not to disparage or accuse people to keep the thread on topic and not start or restart feuds is a great idea. Can we get an admin to come in and moderate...oh, wait.

The very topic you're addressing came up a couple days ago when I was talking to some members of that community, and they're telling a very different side of the story, and they have the logs to show it.


I have no idea why you felt the need to open that can of worms, in this thread of all things. I'm not gonna involve myself in any debate of that, but I find it hard to stomach how easily you break your own rules to launch off-cuff attacks against a community.

That's the last post I'll write in this thread, because for me, the topic (obfuscation) is done.

Things are the way they are, most I know & have talked with have moved on, not because they agree with the points made here (theirs and mine have mostly gone unadressed and ignored) but because there's no value whatsoever in trying to debate the issue at this point.

The only thing left is for everyone to move on and deal with whatever comes of it. That's why I, like many others, haven't continued posting here. There's simply no point to it.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I didn't bring it up, someone else did. I addressed it because someone brought it up.

I also didn't name anyone specifically, I just said that there was a discord server that exists. That isn't the same as accusing anyone specifically of anything. That isn't the same as accusing Yanfly directly of bad faith.

 

[Zeriab]

For fun I tried debugging an issue someone mention in VS's discord channel. I ended up tracing the issue into some of the obfuscated code.
The default dev tools has a pretty-printer (you can say it de-minimizes) and a nice debugger. Debugging the obfuscated code was a bit of a hassle, but wasn't as bad as having to debug Window_Battlelog my tracing went back into the default code.

I did only touch upon a little specific area of the core plugins. It is perfectly possible the complexity of other areas makes debugging more cumbersome. It is also possible that even with the obfuscation no part of VisuStella's plugins are as unpleasant as Window_Battlelog.

*hugs*

 

[TheoAllen]

I didn't bring it up, I simply answered the part that didn't seem to get an answer objectively.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Also, since you were the one who called out that it was your server @Anyone, I'll address the logs you posted: Looks like someone had their code stolen, they brought it up with you, and you refused to do anything about it. Also the stuff with Olivia's code is even more obvious than Yanfly's, but you don't seem to have anything in your logs about that.

Was Yanfly acting unhappy about it? Sure. But why shouldn't he be a little upset with the code being stolen. Dude has done incredible things for the RPG Maker community, and the attitude that people have towards him is honestly depressing.

I feel like this is this quote from Tea fromthe logs people should focus on:

"If I spent 5 years making and providing free plugin for the community (almost 200 high quality constantly updated plugins) and found out that someone was copying them and profiting, and that person refused to clear it up with me, I would respond in the same way. I don't think it's rash or an overreaction, but necessary."

The code thief made money off of stolen code. You refuse to do anything about that. That is what I see.

 

[??????]

Accusing an entire community (a certain discord) of protecting "thieves" and disparaging them in a thread you explicitly said not to disparage or accuse people to keep the thread on topic and not start or restart feuds is a great idea. Can we get an admin to come in and moderate...oh, wait.

The very topic you're addressing came up a couple days ago when I was talking to some members of that community, and they're telling a very different side of the story, and they have the logs to show it.


I have no idea why you felt the need to open that can of worms, in this thread of all things. I'm not gonna involve myself in any debate of that, but I find it hard to stomach how easily you break your own rules to launch off-cuff attacks against a community.

That's the last post I'll write in this thread, because for me, the topic (obfuscation) is done.

Things are the way they are, most I know & have talked with have moved on, not because they agree with the points made here (theirs and mine have mostly gone unadressed and ignored) but because there's no value whatsoever in trying to debate the issue at this point.

The only thing left is for everyone to move on and deal with whatever comes of it. That's why I, like many others, haven't continued posting here. There's simply no point to it.

This is an interesting read for sure. I think im gonna have to read all this over a few times to make up my own mind. Theres a lot of info there to process lol.