OK, I admit it, I'm stuck on a mountain scene

[Kes]

Agreed^ If you use the cliff edge tile where it isn't needed, it can make a terrace look like a pillar (or close to a pillar), unless that is in fact what you are trying to do. I think you can easily achieve the desired effect by shift-clicking.

It doesn't even need shift clicking, just use the ordinary tile in A5.

 

[Shinma]

OK, I think I added in the suggestions/corrections. I noticed one of them after I posted the pic, corrected it and went to bed. Sleepy eyes overlooked the other one. Thanks for the tips!

Spoiler

 

[Kes]

Yes, that solves the 'shape' problem.  However, I still think this would look tons better if you didn't use the cliff edge tile at the back of the ledges. You've even added it to the bit in front of the cave where it was a smooth transition before.  Honestly, it looks weird.  It looks like they are trying to be separate pillars, rather than ledges jutting out from a cliff face.

EDIT

Here is a very fast example to show what I mean - so fast that I didn't follow my own advice to put 'bottom row' tiles on the cliff face where it rises up from the ledge, but the main point is to illustrate how the ledge joins the cliff without the cliff edge tile.

 

[seita]

To add on to all of the awesome information here, if you want some some more advanced techniques to make the cliffs look more 'natural' you can check out my Shift-Click mapping tutorial:

http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/14387-shiftclick-mapping/

 

[Shinma]

Ah, I misunderstood you. Fixing that now.

Seita, thanks, as soon as I fix the above, I will duplicate my map and work some of those tips!

*edit*

OK, I have not used the shift click method yet, I have only removed the edges. My question though is where the wall meets the dirt, should I use the bottom mountain tiles?

Spoiler

Seita, thanks for the tips. I followed your guide and made your structure in the RTP. It turned out below. 

Spoiler

I will have to mess around with that and see what I can create using those tips as well. The one thing that I am wondering though is that you notice the "edge" tile at the base of walls by using your method, whereas ksjp17 suggest having no edge when butting up against them. Which should I do?

Hmmm, re-reading that sounds confusing, so I will try to mock up an image.

 

[Shinma]

OK, instead of editing the above post, I felt this one deserved a new one.

For this I re-did the scene using the shift click method, being sure to take out the edges, making sure the bottoms were in (except when they would be hidden by the adjacent cliff wall), etc. I admit, I think it looks better. Feedback?

Spoiler

 

[TheHarmp]

I think it looks a lot better already, but somehow the long straight mountainsides still bother me a little
(but I'm easily bothered by silly things so it may just be me.)

(example of my mountain mapping style, just something I whipped up)

Spoiler

I personally think the small 1 - 3 tile randomness makes the cliff side a little less steep 

 

[Shinma]

That's awesome! I don't know if I could produce anything like that though, especially with me trying to stay within the RTP. I could try adding the 1-3 tile sections though, and see how it turns out. 

This is a great example, thank you for sharing.

*Edit*

I broke up the straight areas with some of your suggestions. Random small tiled sections.

Spoiler

 

[Kes]

this is coming along great. A couple of points though.

first the ledge bottom right with the dead tree and plant.  It has the cliff edge tiles at the back, which may just be an oversight.  But also it continues along in a straight line.  However, would it not be more 'natural' if it wrapped back a tile and fitted up against the cliff wall?  Otherwise that bit really is a free-standing pillar.

There is the same problem with the 2 smaller ledges you've put in along the bottom.  I have done a very fast edit of part of your map to show what I mean.

I have done 3 things with the lower part of the map.  First I have wrapped the ledge immediately to the right of the lowest stairs in so that it follows the shape of the cliff.  Second, if you look at the indented bit of cliff immediately above those stairs, you will see that I have changed it from a curved section to a straight section.  I just think it looks more natural.  Third, I have extended the shadow there down and next to the second stairs and on the ledge I altered so that it starts at the base of the higher pillar and shows up on the ground.  You can compare the effect with the section above where I haven't.

Lastly, the small ledge in the middle that I haven't altered - I just don't see how the shape at the back fits into the cliff at all.  Maybe you need to reverse the shape so that it protudes outwards rather than backwards?

EDIT

What would also make a big difference would be if you added shadows for the curved wall to the left of the ledge that I altered.  You seem to have it on the first curve back, and there might be a bit at the top of the next curve back, but not all the way down, and none at all on the final section.  That's one of the reasons why it looks a bit flat.

 

[seita]

I would agree to keep the edges out of the bottom. If you're going to use the built-in shadow system from the engine, try to stay consistent and use them on all the edges they should be on as some people have already mentioned.
 
Personally, I do the mountainside thing very differently compared to what most people do. I start with tiers of ground and wall. From there I define the walls and block off passageways I don't want the player going. After that, I add in the details, shadows and such.
 
Granted, I no longer use the RTP, but let me see what I can cook up for you as a 'tutorial' of sorts.
 
Things I notice about everyone:

• When using stairs, people tend to use the exact amount necessary from top to bottom. That is, with a cliff that is 4 tiles high, they use 4 tiles worth of stairs. Think about that for a second. That's like a completely 100% certical staircase. Maybe if it was a rock-climbing wall sure, but nobody is going to be walking up the stairs at a 90 degree angle. This is why I extend the stairs by an extra 1/2. So if the cliff is 4 tiles high, the stairs would extend below to 6 tiles.
• Mountain walls always seem to be desolate, and just straight up mountain walls. Mountains are natural and should look as such. There are tiers everywhere!

I'll see what I can do for you for a tutorial in 30 minutes.
 
Here's what I got for you:

 

[Shinma]

first the ledge bottom right with the dead tree and plant.  It has the cliff edge tiles at the back, which may just be an oversight.  But also it continues along in a straight line.  However, would it not be more 'natural' if it wrapped back a tile and fitted up against the cliff wall?  Otherwise that bit really is a free-standing pillar.

Good point, I will adjust it. I thought about the free standing pillar part, but in my tired mind the free standing seemed OK. I agree that having them against the wall would be better (unless we were in an area where the mountains had started crumbling, which is where I think my mind went.

Thank you both for the excellent tips. Before I finish replying I am going to try some edits. I do have a couple of questions before I dig in too deep, however.

1. Which tile do you suggest I use for them? The autotile or the tiles at the bottom of tab A that have a 3 x 3 top and a 3 x 3 lower?
2. How do you feel shadows should be placed? Start from the bottom and go all the way to the top? Start a couple of tiles up from the bottom? Stop a couple of tiles from the top?

*Edit*

OK, this first edit is following Ksjp17's suggestions. I used the bottom A tiles (not the autotile) to do everything, added in shadows with the shadow tool and feel like I really pulled the scene together. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler

Next up I will expand the scene attempting to incorporate Seita's suggestions and techniques.

*Edit #2*

I took the time to re-create the sample you made. By doing so I was able to get a good feel for ideas and techniques, so I really appreciate it.

Here is your scene, re-created by me.

Spoiler

One thing that I found that helped me is I used the autotile to lay out the walking areas, then came back with the autotile for the mountain walls.

Afterwards I used the bottom right A tiles. I know I could have used the autotiles and performed shift clicking to copy/paste, but by doing so if you make a mistake it takes more to clean up. However, I do like the idea of being able to make crevices so I may use that method at times as well.

Your tips have truly helped me guys. I plan this week to see what I can do to the scene to enhance it further and will post it up when done.

 

[Kes]

That is just so much better.  Well done.

Just to be nitpicky,  Bottom ledge in the centre - I wouldn't have the cliff edge tile on the right where it butts up against the main cliff.  Ledge one layer up on the right next to the most rightward ladder, have the last tile on the return without the cliff edge, just to emphasise that the bit with the ladder protrudes from rest.  The ledge above that ladder, no cliff edge for that section where it butts up against the other pillar.  If my eyes do not deceive me, the pillar that it is abutting has a straight tile.  It needs to be curved to match its top.

A more complicated one to explain is in the middle, the one where there are 2 ladders going up to it.  Trace along the right side of that ledge.  You have cut it in to the main cliff, and then on the right there is a bit that looks like it comes back out again from the main cliff - but the top edge of that bit of main cliff is straight; there is no outward curve.  Furthermore, although that 'sticking out bit' is theoretically one tile longer (going downwards) the next mini ledge is at the same height as the one I've just been talking about.  Or is it?  It's very difficult to work out the relative heights of things.  Don't know if I will have time to do a quick edit, so you may have to rely just on this verbal description of the problem.

[Edit on that description - part of the problem with that little collection of ledges is that the one with the ladder is 3 tiles high, and the one next to it is 2 tiles high, but they both end at the same level at the top.]

For shadows, I would leave the very last bit at the top without shadow.  As the shadow pen is half a tile, that means that you just leave off the last half tile.

I think if you compare this last map with your first you will appreciate just how far you have come with it.

 

[Neverward]

Loving how it looks now

edit: was reading the wrong post / replying to it xD

 

[Shinma]

Ksjp17, as much as I would love to claim that the 2nd image was my original, it's not. In the post above mine you will see that Seita did a sample map as a sort of tutorial. I just re-created his map as a sort of hands on to get a feel for design, however I see where I made some mistakes, and your tips really help out. Between your constructive criticism, and the tips you guys have been given it has taught me a lot.

I am going to work on cleaning up the mistakes and doing your edits, then I am going to get back to my map. I worked on it a bit last night and I honestly feel it is turning out well. I will post a 1st pass of the map when it is done (one with just the layout, before adding foliage, etc.)

*Edit*

I believe I corrected the errors you mentioned, but I am not sure if I got this one. "Trace along the right side of that ledge.  You have cut it in to the main cliff, and then on the right there is a bit that looks like it comes back out again from the main cliff - but the top edge of that bit of main cliff is straight; there is no outward curve."

Spoiler

 

 

[Kes]

With the query you raise in your edit - it was the bit immediately right of the ledge with the 2 ladders.  You have, in fact, now corrected this in the latest version by dropping the next bit down a tile.

I think doing cliffs is one of the best mapping exercises that there is because it forces one to look at so many different aspects.  I wouldn't mind betting that your other maps will flow more easily because of all the work you've put into this one.

 

[Shinma]

So before I get too far in to this piece I decided to post the WIP.

The left side of the map has had work performed on it, the right side hasn't. It is currently missing shadows, but again, it is very much a work in progress. I have been taking the tips that you all have provided and incorporating them into the design.

The lily pads will not stay there. There are temporarily there for the sole purpose of helping me to remember where the caves will connect to (via interior maps). The player will enter this map from the bottom left cave (from an interior map). From there you should be able to discern the path they will take (there will be a ladder on the far right that will allow the player down to the lower right section).

I am mainly posting it in this WIP form due to the prior tutorial map being misleading, and to show a true progression from where I started the thread. I couldn't have even gotten this far without everyone's help. 

Spoiler

 

[Kes]

This is such an improvement!

The only thing I can spot on the left section of the map is the ledge to the left of the one with the skeleton.  It has a mushroom on it.  There are cliff edge tiles you don't need.  I wonder if it's because you are using the autotile for the walkable areas?  When you are more confident, I'd do it all with A5 tiles, which can be just as quick because you haven't got to go back to make corrections.  It also means that you can get proper straight/flat walls where you want them.  The autotile will always end with a curve, which doesn't always fit with the effect required.

 

[Shinma]

Thanks! I saw what you were talking about and made a quick revision that corrected it. Once I finish the map I will post it. Just to be sure, the A5 tiles are the ones at the bottom of tab A? In this instance the bottom right 3 columns/5 rows?

 

[Kes]

That's right, the ones at the bottom of tab A

 

[Shinma]

OK, the scene is finished. I will have 2 smaller exterior maps that connect to this one, plus 3-4 smaller interior maps.

I cannot thank everyone enough for your help and guidance on this. If you see anything wrong with the map below, please let me know.

The player will come into the map from the bottom left cave opening (ignore where he is hanging out in the screenshot).  The events to the right control the bridge graphic as above or below the player.

The caves with the fissures on the ground are temporary linked but will later be connected via an interior cave map.

Lastly, the cave exit in the upper left will be accessible from an interior cave map that will connect to the as-of-yet-to-be-created map above this one.

Spoiler