Jrrkein

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Would adding somesort like equipment durability to the game would impact something for the player to keep an eye on their prized equipment; let's say a sword with +5 attack stats, but have durability on them and it nearly broke just say took many hits until it's nearly broke and let's say the sword is rare here and there also can't find in shops because consider unique. Would durability impact something for the player while they're playing and have to force switch or spend to get a new gear?
 

EpicFILE

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I think it depends on the overall game design.
Durability can add some tactical layer to a game.
Maybe it works nicely for a game with in-map encounter (not a random encounter).
That way the player can decide whether to engage in battle and losing durability points
or simply don't fight the enemy to save the durability points for more important battles.

Anyway, you're Indonesian too. Hello! :D
 

Aerosys

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I know that Breath of the Wild has such a system, and it does work as the game is designed so that the Player always to look for a new weapon, and (at least as far as I played) there were no special weapons that I would miss, so it was okay.

For an RPG it is okay to make a durable system, but please don't make it irreversible. It would hurt too much when I loose my favorite weapon and I would rather reload my savestat. So it should be always possible to repair any broken weapon.

As for every Game mechanic, its purpose should be clear. Just don't add a system because it looks cool. So if the Player stucks in a Dungeon with all his weapons to be broken, what can he still do? Are there weapons that are immutable, but a lot weaker than the others?

While writing this post I got another idea. What if the weapon cannot be broken, but instead, at the beginning it has some special properties (extra damage etc) but only for a number of times. So instead of being broken, it just looses its special property. So you can still use it, to not stuck in the game, but you lose your special abilities until being fixed.
 

TheoAllen

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Only works for action or single party member.
Tracking the equipment durability for multiple party member? Nah.

Except you're making a tactical battle (like Phoenix Point)
The weapon has durability if you use your gun for a melee attack, it breaks. Or when it gets shot.

For RPG Maker standard design?
I would prefer no.
 

Andar

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It depends on the details and the execution.

If it becomes a hassle to keep track of, and to go to special locations for repairs or replacement, then it will be a problem.

if you can easily replace broken items so that it just is a tactical limitation and decision (do I use the cheap or expensive sword for this fight), then it can add to the game
 

Wyrde

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one way to put a balance is to have the player gather the necessary materials to repair the item. For example, they broke their favorite +5 sword that's unique. You can add needed mats like orichalcum and 7 iron ore to repair it with money.

Then there's also another one where you can repair the item, but it would be degraded, like -2 to all weapon stats and you have to refine it to restore it to the default stats and even upgrade it.
 

Celestrium

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Making weapons with durability makes me lose attachment to the equipment, not that there's much of one to begin with. I might save weapons of higher strength for boss fights, but I tend to hate dealing with durability.

I agree with what some others have said though but will put my own spin on it, weapons needs to have A LOT of durability, but then the player needs to know it's not infinite. Skills might use more durability than regular attacks. I think enchanted weapons could have disenchantment points and then when they run out the weapon loses funtionality, but an enchanter can reenchant it (like going to the inn for weapons).

I have seen some games use a base set of weapons with infinite durability, like the base equipment needed to get through an area, and then weapons with special properties have a durability.

Anyway, @Aerosys, the feelings are mutual. I don't want to lose weapons I like. I also like your ideas.
 

TheoAllen

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Skills might use more durability than regular attacks. I think enchanted weapons could have disenchantment points and then when they run out the weapon loses funtionality, but an enchanter can reenchant it
Strictly speaking, this mechanic is just re-labeled MP as "Durability" with added functionality "normal attack uses MP as well". Except if you're also adding a function to switch weapons during battle. In that case, it also similar to "ammo" mechanic relabelled as "Durability", except the actual ammo isn't an item, but a gauge.

In my opinion, what durability actually does and what makes it different than the similar mechanic is that, instead of loses its functionality, the effectiveness is worsened (stat down). And it is not only for a weapon but also the armor.
 

richter_h

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Skimming thru the topic, all I can say for the question asked by the OP is:
If your game emphasizes micromanagement and rewards the player from keeping their stuff on check, also if the game itself is heavy on the gameplay side, then adding durability system on equipment might work. The keyword is "might work", because without any substantial elements that support equipment durability feature, it will be more a hassle than a boon for the player.

In other hands, if you're going more on storytelling than gameplay, I'd advise you to not add too much complexity on your game. Even if the durability system is oversimplified or maybe the equipment system itself is simplified to the point it's more basic than the default RPG Maker has to offer, it will be quite a hindrance soon or later.
 

Celestrium

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@TheoAllen I agree with your assessment...I guess as a player most times I feel it is done wrong and I end up hating it. I didn't mind it in Fire Emblem Three Houses, but you can equip multiple weapons.

@richter_h I completely agree with you, a strange example though. The newest Paper Mario game has a durability system, and that game is presented as simple. The base weapons have infinite durability, but you can equip multiple other weapons that have special traits and more power.

I feel it is ALL how it is implemented and how it connects to your game.


There were weapons in the Saga Series that actually GAINED stats as durability was lost as well.
 

Wavelength

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Many people here have said it depends on your games goals and design. I agree, but I would point out that it is exceptionally rare that Equipment Breaking (or even Equipment Durability where equipment becomes weaker through use, without ever breaking) adds more to the experience than it takes away.

The problem is that Equipment breaking tends to be a "gotcha" that provides little tactical depth while requiring a lot of unfun mental bookkeeping on the part of the player. It also tends to frame negatively (having a working, effective weapon is the default state of mind, and any changes to that are generally in the negative direction with this mechanic), and forces the player to do a lot of unfun things (return to town to sharpen their weapon as they were making progress throughout a dungeon; visit menus to change equipment before it breaks).

The way I could see a mechanic like this being used in a fun and strategically interesting way would be to design the game around needing to use whatever weapons (and maybe equipment too, though I'd focus on weapons) that you can find. Have each weapon only last several encounters, have weapons drop like crazy from enemies or the environment, have each type of weapon control differently (in an action game or action RPG) or employ different tactical considerations (in a turn-based RPG or a strategy game), and build a great interface that allows players to change weapons and view weapon info with just a single button or click. It would be like the Super Smash Bros. of RPG equipment!
 

richter_h

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I feel it is ALL how it is implemented and how it connects to your game.

My sentiment exactly.
And for the example you've brought here, you can see why the base weapons have infinite durability. It's meant for both: a) being a reserve/backup weapons that accessible by the player without any substantial cost to use/maintain, and b) to give the player a gist of what they can do before they have access to better weapons that come with varied costs per usage.
For balance's sake, if the durability system is implemented, it should come with compensations which make each of those worth the costs it implies.

Also, as @Wavelength mentioned above, while it has more downsides than merits, the system can turn out to some interesting outcomes like being the game itself revolves around how well you manage your equipments in fun way. This can be another problem to tackle in the future, but I agree on its potentials on its fullest.
 

Andar

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@richter_h while I agree in general, I feel that you mix up too many differences into only one option "gameplay".

Your post is completely on point when the gameplay" is limited to for example battleforms. A tactical game where the story evolves around how to fight different enemies will often lose toward micromanagement when durability is added.

However if the gameplay evolves around crafting or survival type meachanism, durability is almost a requirement of the game, and similar things happen if you have multiplayer trading and ingame economics. None of those mechanism and game types will work if there is no "loss" to battles and continuing gameplay.
 

TheoAllen

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However if the gameplay evolves around crafting or survival type meachanism, durability is almost a requirement of the game, and similar things happen if you have multiplayer trading and ingame economics. None of those mechanism and game types will work if there is no "loss" to battles and continuing gameplay.
In the context of RPG Maker (and the OP' said "sword"), it only makes sense that this discussion is mainly focused on a game with battle and see if the durability adds anything to it. I would be interested in a topic if RM could be used to dev a fun survival game, but that is another topic in another thread.
 

richter_h

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@Andar Well, I don't know how many is too many in this context, but I understand your point.
What I wanted to say is "durability system is usually good but in certain conditions." I tried to not say "it depends on your game system" here, also I forgot to put more attention on where the system is supposed to be mainly implemented. That said, my apologies if I stirred my points a bit too much.

Anyway, @Jrrkein, I need your clarification on whether it applies only on "rare" stuff or it's an universal trait for all equipment, because it will affect some aspects around battle mechanics should it be implemented in the game.
 

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In a survival game ala Dead Rising where the entire gameplay is based on getting your hands on a handful of disposable equipment (read:for free) and swapping them on the fly as you go, sure.

In any normal RPG where you can't just pick random weapons off the ground and immediately put them to use? No. That extra layer of micromanagement is a nuisance that only serves to interrupt the pace of gameplay.

With that said, the idea of breakable equipment itself isn't a bad thing IF it doesn't force the player into playing a durability management game.
 
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Tai_MT

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Ah, another MMO system people want to port to a Singleplayer experience.

Here's why Weapon Durability exists:

It's a gold sink. It exists to pull money out of an MMO economy. It serves 0 other purpose than this.

So, if you're using it as anything other than that... you're going to have a very difficult up-hill climb on your hands.

In the case of "Breath of the Wild" (the most recent game I've played with this mechanic), it fails miserably.

From the way it's designed, the idea is simple. You're meant to be swapping weapons all the time and staying on the lookout for new weapons all the time. You aren't meant to get attached to any weapon, because it'll be gone if you use it too much and you'll have to replace it.

Here's why it fails:

Players often "saved" their strongest weapons and bashed enemies to death with the weakest equipment first. Most often than not, players would start combat with "The Master Sword" in order to start it on its recharge and then swap to whatever weapon was weakest and work their way up.

Why did players do this?

Because carrying weak weapons is a liability. Better to smash them all as quickly as possible than have to navigate the atrocious menu to drop them. Likewise, a weapon 'break' often 'stuns' the enemy. Stuns are valuable in Breath of the Wild. Save the strong weapons for the strong enemies so you can kill them quickly, and use the weak weapons on absolutely everything else.

Besides, each weapon you smash frees up inventory space for good weapons again. Why do I want this 36 damage boomerang when I can pick up the 70 power two-handed sword? Let me break this boomerang quick on these enemies and then pick up the sword.

Then, you get to the other stuff. Shields and Bows. In my 200 hour playthrough, I've broken FOUR bows. That's it. Four. I drop them all the freakin' time and only ever use the most powerful. Why wouldn't I? Durability on Bows is so ridiculously high and nobody really needs to be "killed with arrows" at all. In fact, unless you're using elemental arrows or something for a specific purpose, there's no need to ever draw your bow. I found myself only ever drawing my bow to solve "light puzzles". You know, knock something over I can't reach, shoot through some ropes, use the correct element on an elemental enemy. Shock arrow into water to kill fish people. Things like that. I didn't use it as part of normal combat at all, because there was no reason to do so. The actually effective arrows in the game are "few and far between", so I didn't use the bow. The "not effective" arrows are plentiful, but basically useless. The durability system would've been served BETTER if instead of "Ice Arrows" you had an "Ice Bow" that would run out. Make the weapon itself elemental or affect the arrows, rather than the arrows. Then, players would've probably engaged with bows more in Breath of the Wild.

And shields are just... shields. You don't even need them in the game. Block something? Why bother? Tier 2 equipment is often enough to shrug off most damage. I only ever used shields for one thing. Bounce lasers back to guardians. Why? Fastest way to kill them. Use a shield in normal combat? Why bother? Because of this single use for the shield, I never bothered caring even what the stats of the shield were. You can deflect stuff as well with a wood shield as you can with a metal shield. Sure, it breaks faster... but you'd be hard-pressed to find shields that DIDN'T break after 1 or 2 deflections of Guardian Lasers. So... who cares what the durability is on them?

Finally, you get to my personal playstyle. The One I used to utterly break combat in Breath of the Wild.

"Why should I waste durability on my swords when I can kill enemies easily with my infinite bombs?"

Let's see... Bombs stun most enemies. Knock over weak enemies. Clear up groups of enemies. Set grass on fire, which can then set enemies on fire (or their weapons). Can be thrown or dropped and detonated whenever. Save durability of your weapons since most enemies don't even require much beyond a 12 power weapon to be slaughtered in a couple hits (until you start seeing the black ones much more often, but they're relatively rare in most locations and can simply be avoided by that point in the game, since you don't need anything they're guarding).

Basically, I engaged with combat in the early game using primarily bombs. I didn't engage in combat mid-game or late game unless I needed something specific from a monster (lightning bits from those lizards in the desert, for example) and ran from stuff. If the enemy was a large threat, I'd hit with a bomb to stun it, then whack it until it died or got back up.

And then I discovered that you could lock enemies in place with Stasis late game. Stasis the Lionel, whack it once with a torch, it's stunned for a few seconds. Swap to big hit weapon, whack twice, run away until stasis recharges.

I only ever had 12 slots for melee weapons because I never saw a use for more. I usually carried:
1. Torch/Wood weapon for light/melting snow/burning things.
2. Korok Leaf for times when the game FORCES me to use it on certain puzzles and water navigation.
3. Fire weapon.
4. Ice weapon.
5. Lightning weapon.
6. Master Sword. Good for cutting down trees and killing Guardians.
7. Random weapon.
8. Random weapon.
9. Random weapon.
10. Random weapon.
11. High powered weapon used only against monsters as strong as bosses.

I used the "random weapons" to just kill whatever I needed to kill. Never needed more than 4 of those. Everything else was in my inventory as "situational".

Basically, the system for me was broken. They could've just made over half my slots "mandatory" slots filled with "permanent equipment" because of how I used them. As in, these were items I rarely used outside of puzzles/specific combat encounters, and the rest were just in my inventory because, "weapons break sometimes". I would've been better served had they just given me a weapon of each elemental type that was permanent, an unbreakable master sword, a permanent torch, a permanent korok leaf, and a permanent "powerful weapon" that I'd just replace with stronger and stronger equipment as the game went on. Effectively, I only needed 7 slots for weapons. I'd need even less if some of those were turned into the standard "Zelda Items" instead (magic rod that creates ice blocks, for example? Summoning lightning from the sky and killing everything on screen with it, for example?).

The "durability" system of Breath of the Wild serves no real purpose other than to hinder players who aren't all that clever and rarely, if ever, use their "Cellphone Powers".

Personally, I find no real need for a "durability" system in a singleplayer game. It is rarely ever a hindrance, and if it is, it utterly destroys the fun of your game. It rarely ever introduces anything "tactical" to the game, and if it does, it often destroys the fun of your game.

I sort of like Durability to stay where it was invented. MMO's. As a means to remove gold from the economy in order to balance prices.
 

Jrrkein

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Anyway, @Jrrkein, I need your clarification on whether it applies only on "rare" stuff or it's an universal trait for all equipment, because it will affect some aspects around battle mechanics should it be implemented in the game.
Rare gears that possibly have low drop rate/only found on spefic spot of that location. Also I read thru the thread about the whole durability thing might be upset even thought it might balance few things like players might not to clingy with a +10 attack and +10 HP sword than a +10 attack sword. The way I want to simply put is if the player isn't too clingy with their extra valued gear, but making starting gear essentially have infinite or long-lasting than a better equipment would that be better option?
 

Andar

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would that be better option?
not really.

instead of asking "what would the player think of my idea" you should be asking "what will the player do if the idea is implemented?"

and if easy gear is infinite durability, but good gear has limited use then the answer is to not use the good gear unless absolutely neccessary, because you might need it for the next bigger boss.
And that will result in the good gear to never be used unless the player has extra and better gear, and the best gear still remains unused even after game-ending boss fight because the player got used to the starting gear and forgot to equip the best gear before the boss battle...

The player is almost always about minmaxing his/her chances, not about using items as you might have planned.
 

TheoAllen

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would that be better option?
Remember the psychology of "what if I need it later" in consumables?
Apply that to equipment with durability.
 

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