Opinion Required: Elements

[Zurea]

So in my game I'm currently working on I have currently 12 elements


Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Light, Dark, Poison, Metal, Arcane(magic), Ice, Life(Nature), Thunder


But I kinda feel like there's too many and can make things confusing, so I was thinking of combining Ice into Water and Thunder into Wind because having both feels redundant, then I remember pokemon's elements which is fairly extensive and Golden Sun's more simple (only has Fire, Earth, Water, Wind for those unfamiliar with the series.) So I'm not sure any more if 12 elements are too many or just right. Anyone have their own opinion to include to this situation?


Positive feed back is greatly appreciated!

 

[MenaKatep]

It sort of depends on how heavily the game depends on the elements themselves. Pokemon and the actual battles were really the main focus in the series so it would make sense to do as much as you can to possibly differentiate them and make them unique. Golden Sun was a very simplistic RPG adventure game where the focus was not actually on the battles but the storyline. I would say that if your game is mostly story based, then there shouldn't be a need to over-complicate the battle system with lots of additional features. 


Take my opinion with a grain of salt though since an opinion is all that it is.

 

[Zurea]

If I get rid of the elements I'll probably keep their states and just have attacks that would use ice freeze enemies and the like, I suppose that does help a bit thanks.

 

[MenaKatep]

Glad to hear it helped you even if only a little.  

 

[LaFlibuste]

I feel like we've had this more or less exact discussion a few weeks or months ago. Maybe you could find it on the forums if you looked a bit for it.

Basically, elements are a kind of gimmick to add a layer of strategy to your game. It really boils down to how you use it. Is it a cycle, a rock-paper-scissor kind of thing? Is it about opposing pairs? Is it a big system like in pokemon? How does it behave in battle, do actors have one inherent element or two (again, like in pokemon), or a set of varying resistances/weaknesses to each? etc. etc.

If you go down the pokemon route, I guess 12 is fine. If you go down the "each actor has a whole set" route, I guess it's a bit much and wouldn't really add anything to your system at that point.

My personnal take on "elements" is that they are really "damage types". I'd personally go with something like "cut", "pierce", "crush", "burn", "freeze", "shock", "corrode", maybe "mind" and "poison"... As far as I'm concerned, some of the ones you suggest like "wind", "water", "earth", "light", "dark", "metal", "arcane" and "life" don't make much sense. But then again, it's only a gimmicky thing to add a layer of strategy, so it could really be anything you fancy, as long as it's coherent with your universe. Although if there were any elements to axe in your system "arcane" and "life" seem particularly redundant. And maybe change "metal" for "physical" or something.

 

[terrorchan]

Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth are the basics that I'd suggest not combining or keeping. Nature seems to be an odd one to have, though. Life could equal holy magic, which is the same as light or if you literally mean nature, you already have Earth and so on, so why have a whole new category? I'd scrap metal, poison, and thunder personally, if you want to do lightning esque damages that might work with the light category, so I'd suggest combining those two. Poison could be added to dark or earth magic, depending on how it works. Magic is a weird one since all of these elements are used via magic. I think it would be better to say that instead of magic being an element, the ones you've listed out are elements of magic. 

 

[Zurea]

(Really don't remember having this convo before)


Thanks LaFlibuste. Basically its like FF's clash system,  Like how Fire>Ice but Ice>Fire.


Thanks Terrorchan, that does make sense. As Life is plants and poison is basically decay. Though I'm a bit confused by what you mean by 

Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth are the basics that I'd suggest not combining or keeping.

They are the basics of elements and I'd figure would be a good way for players to keep strategy to their battles while giving some challenge.


This has been helpful on narrowing the list down, and they are basically there for a type of strategy addition, there was a bit of story element but that's what brought this into question to begin with and made me feel 12 was over complex.

 

[terrorchan]

They are the basics of elements and I'd figure would be a good way for players to keep strategy to their battles while giving some challenge.

I meant that since you mentioned maybe combining certain elements together, that the ones I listed would be better off as single categories instead of one big one (like nature). 

 

[Zurea]

My thought after this little convo was to put Ice into Water, Life into Earth, Poison into Dark and Thunder into Wind as an alternate of the element to deal a different state. Like have under the Water element Blizzard which will have a chance to freeze enemies. That's where I'm currently thinking which would take me from 12 to 8 elements, debating if I want to get rid of Metal and Arcane as they do have a more powerful story influence than the others though.

 

[Wavelength]

Gonna copy a response I made from this discussion on Elements, since I feel it applies here too:

This subject comes up a lot here - the whole "what elements should be in an RPG" and "should there be just one physical element called 'physical' or should there be lots of different physical types" discussions.


And the advice I usually like to give is - what larger purpose do the Elements have in your battle system?  How does the presence of each element make the system more exciting, balanced, and strategic?  If you can't come up with a good answer to those questions, you should cut out as many as you can.  If you can come up with a good answer to those questions, then you should 'double down' on the good qualities of the system by giving the player as much control over it as possible

In general, if the idea is just "make certain skills better against certain enemies", then it's worth thinking about removing elements entirely (needless complexity), but if you keep them in your game then 4-6 is a good number.  Pokemon uses 15+ elements, but that's because there's a high level of emphasis in building your roster and skill lists in ways that you will always be able to counter whatever the opponent strategically throws at you, so the high number of elements adds depth there (whereas it wouldn't add significant depth in a game like Final Fantasy).

 

[Feliaria]

Well, my game runs the typical Physical, Fire, Water, Earth, and Wind, and also Holy, Dark, and Spirit. I also have Healing and Death which are self-explanatory. Death for insta-kill spells so that bosses are immune and Healing so I can add effects that increase or decrease how much actors are healed for haha


Fire>Earth>Wind>Water>Fire, and Holy>Dark>Holy, Spirit


What I did with the base was:


-Merge Thunder and Wind


-Merge Water and Ice


-Rename Light to Holy


-Shorten Darkness to Dark


-Add Spirit, which lies outside strengths/weaknesses


Each skill a character has equipped (I use Yanfly's Skill Equip plug-in) increases and decreases the actor's elemental resistances (each skill increases the damage they take by the skill's weak element by 5% and reduces the damage they take by the skill's element and strong element by 2.5% each) based on the skill's element (i.e., equipping a Fire skill causes the actor to take 5% more Water damage and 2.5% less Fire and Earth damage).

...My personnal take on "elements" is that they are really "damage types". I'd personally go with something like "cut", "pierce", "crush", ...

Huh. I might do that, expand on Physical like that. Maybe do the typical Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeon weapon types like in Pathfinder and DnD. That could also give me the option of making certain enemies weak to or resistant to certain weapon types (like skeletons being weak to Bludgeon and resistant to Slashing, or vice-versa for zombies.)


Anyway, as for your game @Zurea, I would definitely think about removing Arcane, at the least. If you changed the name of Light to Holy (like I did) would change the theme of the element enough to justify the presence of both Light/Holy and Life/Nature (though personally I would err more toward the side of Nature than Life, since it makes more sense to me thematically. Nature would suggest every aspect of nature, Life would seem more like a strictly- (or at least, mostly-) healing element. Metal could be removed, as well. Just make it Physical (unless it is your Physical element already.)


However, if they are that important to you story-wise, you may wanna just keep them. Look forward to trying your game some day! What's its name gonna be?

 

[Zurea]

Its titled the 7th Dawn (story element) which is basically going to be telling the events after a cataclysm from eight hundred years prior to the start of the game.


Metal and Arcane are part of that story which makes removing them set back more than just a few points. Long story short metal mana is an alien element to the world which created the 'arcane' element of chaos to counter it. Like white blood cells against an infection, point is to remove them basically rewrites the whole plot and not just points, Life was originally called Nature, but on another discussion (outside of the boards/forums) it got changed to Life, hence why its probably being merged with Earth. I'm going to keep Light as is because to call it 'Holy' is to believe its innately 'Good' where as in this world the elements; which have their own 'lifeforce' is neither good nor evil. As said, I don't want to get too far into the story here as this is about mechanics and design, not story/plot. But I wanted it to be known that Metal and Arcane(might rename) are required to the story of the game.

 

[LightningLord2]

Basically, my idea is that an element has a place if you can logically think of what that element should be strong/weak against. The Fire/Ice/Lightning trio has been thoroughly explored already and requires little addition on my end (nor to Wind and Water, which are under the Lightning/Ice umbrella, respectively). Earth, Light and Dark tend to be problematic because there's rarely any enemies weak to earth (anything that flies resists it or is outright immune) and light/dark never interact with elements outside of each other in RPGs. I found it good for earth to be good against heavy opponents as well as against slimes and gastropods (weak to Salt->Mineral->Earth). Light in my game is not only the holy light type, but also includes nuclear radiation, which would be ineffective against metallic/icy opponents (who reflect light rays) and human enemies (we know from comics that radiation gives you super powers). However, single-cell organisms are weak to it, as are the general garden variety of undead. It also messes up nocturnal creatures. Lastly, Dark is my biggest issue because it hardly encompasses any themes (same with Fire). At the very least, I can make it strong vs. diurnal creatures and all plants. I also have psychic powers filed under the Dark element, but since I rarely work with it, I haven't figured how that'd influence the matchups of darkness.

 

[Feliaria]

I'm going to keep Light as is because to call it 'Holy' is to believe its innately 'Good' where as in this world the elements; ...

Not necessarily. Holy would encompass anything "divine" in nature, such as (in your case) a "being" with a lifeforce.


However, Holy can also encompass the dark side of the divine, as gods can be both good and evil, or even neither (commonly referred to as "neutral" in tabletops)

 

[Anthony Xue]

Basically, my idea is that an element has a place if you can logically think of what that element should be strong/weak against.

The German "Realms of Arkania" RPGs have the following system:


Fire opposite Water


Earth (in the sense of living "garden earth"; this could incorporate Life and Nature) opposite Ice (as the enemy of all life)


Air opposite Stone


which gives the cycle Fire => Stone => Ice => Water => Air => Earth => Fire


I like this system as it allows you to keep Ice by itself and Stone and Earth really have different identities.


Anyway, if it's indeed only about damage, you might consider "cut", "pierce", "crush", but it rarely is. Most people have an innate understanding what an Air Elemental or a Stone Elemental could or couldn't do. It also allows you to have a little lore with stuff like Temples of the Flame and such.


While we are at temples: I would also support the notion that "holy" is more on the positive side. The word "unholy" exists for a reason. 

 

[Feliaria]

While we are at temples: I would also support the notion that "holy" is more on the positive side. The word "unholy" exists for a reason. 

And that is debatable. However, not all games use the distinction of holy vs. unholy. Holy is the divine. Powers given by an "evil" god could still debatably be called "Holy", as, to the followers of that god/pantheon, those powers, though evil in nature, would be divinely given and thus should be considered "Holy". Though most games have taken "Holy" as having a positive connotation, "Unholy" would, being defined as opposing Holy, as not Holy, be anything not divine in nature (as in the OP's case, his Metal element, as it is alien, rather than deific, in nature).

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

Arcane and Metal, are they really strong in terms of mechanics or are they mostly plot devices?


Your lore seem to be highly dependent on them, so maybe best is to work backwards if they are needed for mechanics.


Have these two at the top of your elemental effects hierarchy, and decide the relevance of others compared to them.

 

[omen613]

I personally don't like when elemental spells are the exact same spell just different elemental like the final fantasy series Fire Thunder Ice


Try giving each element a personality like Fire inflicts Burn or Ice increases the user's Defense rating on use so they have other uses in battle when not fighting an elemental enemy.


Fighting a high attack enemy soldier? Better use Ice attacks so my Defense raises as I hit him.


Fighting a High Defense Tanky guy? Fire spells to land that burn to bypass his defense. 

 

[Zurea]

I personally don't like when elemental spells are the exact same spell just different elemental like the final fantasy series Fire Thunder Ice


Try giving each element a personality like Fire inflicts Burn or Ice increases the user's Defense rating on use so they have other uses in battle when not fighting an elemental enemy.


Fighting a high attack enemy soldier? Better use Ice attacks so my Defense raises as I hit him.


Fighting a High Defense Tanky guy? Fire spells to land that burn to bypass his defense. 

Already done, Fire > Burn and Water > Drench basically each element has its own unique status effect that played into other elements, So hitting a Burned enemy with water removes the burn while hitting a Drenched enemy with Fire deals no damage. But hitting a Drenched enemy with Ice(Or an Ice sounding attack if merged with Water) would give a 100% chance to freeze them.

Arcane and Metal, are they really strong in terms of mechanics or are they mostly plot devices?


Your lore seem to be highly dependent on them, so maybe best is to work backwards if they are needed for mechanics.


Have these two at the top of your elemental effects hierarchy, and decide the relevance of others compared to them.

They have a strong presence in both terms, Story wise Metal invaded the world and forced the use of a weapon that caused Arcane to be born into the world and is basically the reason that everything has become as bad as it has


Game play wise Metal has a high critical hit chance and generally is only 'weak' to creatures of Earth element (i.e. Rock elemental) while Chaos is the bridge between elements Light and Dark, making both weak to the damage, but at the same time has some interesting effects in combat such as mimicing the last action (friend or foe) on your target. Both are a high reward high risk, Metal uses HP as a cost instead of MP/TP and Arcane uses a % of HP/MP (depends on the skill's effect) 


Currently the system & story match pretty well (filling any gaps I find along the way), its just this bit of 'are these elements basically the same?' that has gotten into my head after nearly a month long hiatus and coming back with fresh eyes.

 

[Feliaria]

I personally don't like when elemental spells are the exact same spell just different elemental like the final fantasy series Fire Thunder Ice


Try giving each element a personality like Fire inflicts Burn or Ice increases the user's Defense rating on use so they have other uses in battle when not fighting an elemental enemy.


Fighting a high attack enemy soldier? Better use Ice attacks so my Defense raises as I hit him.


Fighting a High Defense Tanky guy? Fire spells to land that burn to bypass his defense.

My game is running something like that.


Fire can burn.


Water can freeze (bosses are instead slowed, which causes them to lose Agility.)


Thunder can inflict Shock (which reduces DEF and MDF) and can stun non-bosses.


Holy can heal the user (the game's only true healing, as I'm building a solo adventure and really can't afford a pure healer).


Dark inflict all sorts of effects like Blind and Poison. Dark spells typically deal less damage.


Spirit ignores both resists and weaknesses as well as DEF and MDF.


That said, I hadn't thought about doing something like Ice (Water) raising DEF.