Opinion: Your game is already bad if you use all default graphics.

[Twisted]

I agree with @SolonWise and @bgillisp.
Default graphics doesnt mean your game will look bad and is it worth spending ££££ to only sell 1000 copies?
Plus i mean consider the audience, the audience would have to know about rpg maker software to then judge it low effort.
In my eyes a good RPG is based on STORY. Grip me, draw me in, expand, throw me a twist. Exactly the same as watching a movie.
Also i think it depends on target market - If i was to sell you guys an RPG (including myself here). I want spells, story, battles, overly complicated and long running quests,and much more.
I think the margins move depending on what you are doing. If your game is aimed at younger children for example an educational game then theres no need to go all out.
At the end of the day it boils down to this:
Are you planning to sell your game?
Where are you going to sell your game?
How much are the fees?
What is the target audience?
How long long as it taken to make?
How much has it cost you?
What is your cost to profit margin?



Sorry i am rambling abit but im sure you get the point.

Regards
Mat

 

[Morizel]

Okay. ALL my projects are already garbage because I am using RTP MV. And no matter what gameplay changes I am do within these projects. No matter how I edit default graphics.
Sounds legit for those who sick of all those games that uses this graphic and sound library. And must review them all.
Anyway I have only one question: what I must to do to gameplay if game uses RTP? Forget about this? Maybe I must draw all thing (no matter about my artist skills) myself just because RTP is bad thing?

 

[Zliryu]

Hm, I'd say it is in the eye of the beholder. I find games with default RTP and/or variations of it more appealing then at lot of completely custom made ones.
There is nothing wrong with using the default RTP to bring across a story, especially if you are developing it solo and are not an artist. Honestly, I'd go with a custom made RTP only if I wanted to profit from the game in a higher price range (10$-30$), hire a team, especially artists etc. I doubt you could sell the game above 10$ with the default RTP, if even that amount.

 

[Tai_MT]

Sorry, I just want to rain on your parade since it's full of a lot of logical fallacies and ignores a lot of reality.

You're welcome to your opinion, I hope you just accept that your opinion comes from such a place and uses such arguments to justify its existence.

I've seen too many people make games that LOOK like a RPG Maker game, play like an RPG Maker game and feel like an RPG Maker game. While there are GOOD games out there that use the default graphics, you can count the amount on your hands.

As opposed to all the excessive amount of Asset Flip games made with Unity on Steam? Ones that don't use default anything, but instead buy all their assets?

Yeah, I can totally see how and why your argument holds water.

To be fair...

Graphics don't make a good game. At all. Dwarf Fortress is the only game anyone needs to cite for "graphics don't mean jack crap" in gaming. That game is the ultimate back-handed slap to anyone who cares about graphics and uses them to judge whether a game is any good or not.

By all means, play all the really crappy AAA games that are boring and stock standard... but at least they look really pretty!

Everybody who uses RPG Maker *wants* to make an epic RPG game like they've always fantasized about, but there's so many bad ones out there over-saturating the 'market' for RPG Maker games that if your game LOOKS like a hastily put together game (Like in my example pic below) then it's already going to turn off 99% of the people who look at your project.

This is true of any game engine. It isn't just RPG Maker. However, I don't play all that many RPG Maker games because I've seen what people post on these forums. Not because I've seen screenshots.

The sort of game design decisions advocated on these forums and the amount of people who can't even commit to a single project until it's completion...

That turns me off of most RPG Maker designed games.

One need only look at the amount of people who can't even justify the features put into their games to realize the quality of said games is likely to be fairly low.

Heck, you need only ask, "What purpose does X feature serve in your game?" and when you get replies like, "It's fun!", it's sort of a good indicator of the quality of that end product if it ever sees the light of day.

Here's the thing, the default graphics in the game look so.... stocky. Like just your average stock sprites. Unless you go with the parallax mapping route, your game is *going* to look awful.

Thank you for defining "default graphics" accurately. Yes, they look stock. They are stock. If it didn't come with stock assets, nobody would make games with the engine.

Pro Tip: Anyone who bothers to customize ANY of the artwork, music, or sound effects before they have a finished game... Yeah, they're wasting a lot of money on a project that isn't going to ever be completed.

You add in all the custom nonsense once the game is actually a finished product. As in, that's the "polishing" phase.

I actually enjoy the RTP as I think it looks quite nice. Some of it looks "cartoony", but if you saw some of the DLC you can purchase... that stuff looks even more cartoony and often far worse. Or, it clashes with everything else.

Dunno 'bout anyone else, but I'm not going to commission an artist to do all of the artwork for me in hopes it doesn't clash.

Basically, if you're not an artist and don't have a ton of money to be throwing at projects you're never going to finish... The Default graphics are your best option.

Besides, most people will tell you, "It's not what you have, it's how you use it."

The same goes for using the default sounds, battlers and music. You will never be able to make a *good* or *fun* RPG if you just half-ass your game. I'm not trying to turn anyone off with this post, but you're going to *really* have to put in alot of effort in your game if you're going to use the default options for your whole project.

See my above reply to this. Most often the people who replace all the sounds, battlers, music, graphics, etcetera... are people "half-assing" their game. They're banking on those things making their game look great and amazing and get sales... and then neglecting even creating engaging gameplay, stories, characters, and quests.

An RPG is, first and foremost, about:
Stories.
Characters.
Quests.
Gameplay.

Without any of those things, you don't have a very good RPG at all. By all means, focus on custom assets all you want... But, if your game doesn't do at least TWO of the things in that list of four to an amazing degree... your custom assets are a waste of time and money.
---
With that being said... if you're selling an RPG Maker game on Steam... Yeah, the lack of custom assets are going to work against you because the RTP doesn't look all that interesting. However, it is easy to change this perspective by creating proper promotional material for your game.

If all you've got to show off is screenshots... then that's how your game is going to be judged.

Here's how I decide to buy an RPG:
1. What is the story? Does it sound interesting or unique in some way?

2. What's combat like? Stock standard of mashing attack or spamming best skills? Any footage to show off cool combat features?

3. Any other Features in the game? Skill Trees? Choice Driven? Morality System? What's the primary gameplay loop? What's expected of me as a player?

4. Maps that look "well put together". That is, maps that look interesting to explore and get lost in. Very little wasted space. Not a lot of clutter. Adds atmosphere.

5. Price Tag? What's this experience going to cost me?

6. Reviews. What do the bad reviews say? Do they point out things I can live with? If so, how bad are those issues?
---
For my tastes... most RPG Maker Made games fall apart at the first or second option there. Few make it to the third option I look at or even further than that.

Graphics and custom assets are just... whatever. They're sort of "stock standard" anymore as well. They're not really a great indicator you've got a good game... they're usually just a great indicator the creator of the game was an artist or they had a ton of money to throw at their project. Neither of which tells me that the game is any good.

 

[Avery]

PandaMaru made very good tutorials on the German Boards about RTP =/= RTP, which I can highly recommend. They mostly focus on good mapping with just the RTP (and very few edits), if you mix in a few edits or do a bit parallax you can definitly do a lot more.
One of her examples:

[Mapping] Wald - RPG Maker MV - Dein Projekt - Dein Spiel - Deine Community

Willkommen zu meiner kleinen Exkursion in Sachen Mapping, heutiges Thema: Wald. Dabei verwenden wir die vorinstallierten Grafiken des MV, um alles möglichst Einsteiger-freundlich zu belassen. Wie immer möchte ich betonen, dass es viele Wege nach Rom…

rpgmaker-mv.de

[Mapping] Bergklippen und -wände - RPG Maker MV - Dein Projekt - Dein Spiel - Deine Community

Willkommen zu meiner kleinen Exkursion in Sachen Mapping, heute Thema: Klippen. Dabei verwenden wir die vorinstallierten Grafiken des MV, um alles möglichst Einsteiger-freundlich zu belassen. Wie immer möchte ich betonen, dass es viele Wege nach Rom…

rpgmaker-mv.de

[Mapping] Tipps zum Mappen von Dörfern und Städten - RPG Maker MV - Dein Projekt - Dein Spiel - Deine Community

Hier ein paar Tipps, was ihr beim Mappen von Dörfern und Städten bedenken könnt: Tileset-Einsatz Leider lese ich viel zu oft, dass die mitgelieferten Ressourcen der Maker zu wenige sein sollen. Von allem zu wenig, um die Maps richtig zu befüllen und…

rpgmaker-mv.de

[Mapping] Innenräume - RPG Maker MV - Dein Projekt - Dein Spiel - Deine Community

Willkommen zu meiner kleinen Exkursion in Sachen Mapping, heute Thema: Innenräume. Dabei verwenden wir die vorinstallierten Grafiken, um alles möglichst Einsteiger-freundlich zu belassen.Wie immer möchte ich betonen, dass es viele Wege nach Rom gibt,…

rpgmaker-mv.de

Thing is, a game that is even 90 or 100% RTP can definitly look good. The effort is worth it and I'd rather play a well mapped RTP game than a 100% costum with boring maps.

 

[RCXDan]

I am super mixed on this because there's a lot of factors that go into it. It's an extremely loaded question.

I feel it's less a problem with a game's quality and more the matter of that game being taken seriously.

The game with only RTP can potentially be amazing if you really put effort into the mechanics and story, maybe some parallax here and there.

That doesn't change anything because the visual identity of the game is based on pre-set graphics and not anything you made. It's a problem that comes when several other people use the same default style.

Style is an extremely important part of indie projects, since its what makes them stand out from each other. You dont have that style, you don't register in most people's heads.

I personally think it shouldn't be held against anybody though, cause like... unless you are an person with a lot of money to spare or are an artist yourself, custom assets are hard to come by.

I also cant hold it against someone who doesn't have any real ambition for their project or are just using the default assets as place holders.

But that's just my take.

 

[standardplayer]

Ah, @Morpheus i hear you lol. You've definitely hit some nerves here, but i read what you said and dont feel like you're saying most of what folks think you're saying.

You're expressing frustration and worry, and you're sharing it without a feelings-filter.

The word opinion around here means different things to different folks.
Ironically I feel like a lot of the responses are expressing the same thing :b

 

[Morpheus]

@Tai_MT Not raining on my parade at all, I actually agree with the vast majority of what you've said. I read all that you wrote and though I disagree with you when you say my opinion is not based in reality(seeing as how most RPG maker games go unplayed and YES I understand some games with RTP graphics/gameplay have sold alot, the other 99% of RPG maker games go unplayed), I agree with almost everything else you wrote. I didn't want to include a huge rant on what would make your game bad like you have because I didn't want to generalize. But please read below my explanation.

I am super mixed on this because there's a lot of factors that go into it. It's an extremely loaded question.

I feel it's less a problem with a game's quality and more the matter of that game being taken seriously.

The game with only RTP can potentially be amazing if you really put effort into the mechanics and story, maybe some parallax here and there.

That doesn't change anything because the visual identity of the game is based on pre-set graphics and not anything you made. It's a problem that comes when several other people use the same default style.

Style is an extremely important part of indie projects, since its what makes them stand out from each other. You dont have that style, you don't register in most people's heads.

I personally think it shouldn't be held against anybody though, cause like... unless you are an person with a lot of money to spare or are an artist yourself, custom assets are hard to come by.

I also cant hold it against someone who doesn't have any real ambition for their project or are just using the default assets as place holders.

But that's just my take.

Perhaps you are right when you say " it's less a problem with a game's quality and more the matter of that game being taken seriously.".

Maybe I shouldn't have said 'Your game is bad" but instead "Most people will think your game is bad"
As others such as @Tai_MT have pointed out, of course more than graphics factor in to whether your game is good or not, but what is the average person going to think when they see lazy maps with default RTP graphics seemingly randomly placed everywhere? They're going to pass on playing because it looks awful.

 

[bgillisp]

@Morpheus : That's true though regardless of the engine. Bad maps in Unity, Gamemaker, gs2, Pixel maker, or even your own custom engine will get flak too by the average person. In fact, here's a map from an AAA game that would be considered bad if we ever did it:

Spoiler

The game? Final Fantasy XII.

 

[fluffymonster]

Honestly the resources that come with MV aren't the best, graphics-wise at the very least. They don't look good and I think that's why you get a lot of people turned away from using or enjoying the resources that come with the maker. Anything with poor graphics can be good, though. Look at Undertale, for instance. While it's true it's all custom and going for a certain theme, it'd be nothing without the story or the combat. You need something else grabbing about the game if it's lacking in the art department. Pixel art can be pretty, though. Depends on what you do or how you do it.

 

[Mystic_Enigma]

Yeah, i'm going to go and disagree with the title outright. Saying a game that uses RTP is insta-bad is like saying oranges are awful because they're orange. In both cases, one doesn't bother to pull back the peel and actually try the fruit!

I for one am just fine with the default graphics, and would use it with pride. I don't see why people are keep griping about it. Plus I don't have the time nor resources to make an entire tileset just for my game.

It's the game's content I would be quicker to judge. 8 and 16-bit games back then would end up being hits because they were well-done and entertain the players, aesthetics notwithstanding. It's been repeated that if you don't put a decent amount of effort into it, of course a game is going to flop, that has nothing to do with graphics!

 

[Ksi]

Yeah, no.

Wrong.

If your bad mapping is indicative of what you're talking about, then you are completely dead wrong. Level design is good or bad no matter what graphics you use. You cannot equate quality of a game to the visual appeal of the graphics used.

It can be indicative of a lazier developer, yes, but it is not, in and of itself, the reason a game is good or bad. Sorry, but I'll take a well-mapped RTP game over a custom-art badly mapped game any time - because one has had actual care and consideration taken in the designing of the environs whilst the other is someone just slapping down 'custom' graphics as though that's all that matters in a game.

 

[Restart]

There are numerous high quality free assets available outside the RTP. Extremely little effort is required to find them, and considerable visual polish can be added by including them appropriately.

If you're unwilling (or unable) to do free and easy things which can noticeably improve your game, I think that lack of care and attention to detail is likely to manifest in other aspects of your project as well.

 

[IFCATS]

The problem is people will look at your game for like 4-5 seconds if you are lucky before moving on. And at that stage you can only rely on graphics and mapping. Dwarf Fortress for instance, has an interesting look with all the tiny alcoves and the lava that spark your interest. It' like human interactions: if you are cute, you play on easy.
If i see an rpt game with excellent mapping, I can expect the same level of attention put into the other aspects of the game, but with better graphics you get away more easily. Undertale catches your attention with interesting characters and style, but the mapping is very basic.

If you try to make a minimalistic style game with MV tileset, you are doomed from the start: it's like try to hit on people in a disco with your deep personality and ugly face. People will steer away.

 

[HighTyrol]

I think that until people have finished a game that they shouldn't spend any money on extras. But I think using a small amount of free assets can go a long way. I like the RTP style but It has to be used somewhat well to be appealing to me. But recoloring the trees slightly and and mixing similar colors together can make forests more appealing. As long as it looks like the maker thought about what they wanted me to focus on and it looks like effort went in to I usually enjoy it unless I hate the story or something. It is important to make sure the form of your maps match the function. If the town has important stuff they need to be up on a hill or have a large path to them. The places you expect the players to go first need to be near the entrance. Stuff like that.

The bar it takes for me to fork over money is higher though. I do think that leaving the sounds completely at default can give a bad impression. But most of the sounds that come with the rtp are pretty good. I usually use the buzzer sound for my cancel SE. I also usually try to change the pitch of a decent chunk of my sound effect to try to get a more cohesive setup. There are a lot of good sounds on places like freesound that you can use. getting enough to resound the whole interface is like 8 hours work tops. If you are familiar with it you can get the sound you want in less then 2 hours depending upon what you want. Things like bells, clicks, whistles, chimes, and drum sounds are useful for UI. Fire, birdsong, crickets, and other ambient noises can give a bit more depth to your outdoor areas. Although, I don't think you need custom music for most games. If you just use the RTP and think about how to use the music you have to fit the scenes you have you will usually will be fine. Although, if you can make music then that is another way you can show your game is special.

I usually want to see one thing that is really cool if I am going to buy a game. I also don't want to see any area that is completely terrible. But getting over the completely terrible threshold in something just takes a bit of effort. You usually don't need anything custom to get over that mark. But, every aspect of your game needs to have thought put into it. Ideally at least 8 hours for each aspect if you had a 30 min game. A single outdoor map with less than 4 hours total effort into it is likely to not look good.(Including eventing) The overall shape of everything in the game should have purpose in my opinion. I would probably buy a 1 hour game for about 1-2$ if I knew they had 1 cool element I liked and they didn't have any aspect that was terrible. To get me to spend more than 5, I need to be able to get at least 3 hours of enjoyment or it needs to have 2 cool aspects.

But, I think if you want to sell a game for any significant amount of money you should probably work with a team anyways. Two people can get a lot more done than one when working together.

In conclusion, have something cool and show it off when you make the game and make sure that their are not any parts that are terrible. If you have a cool battle system. Advertise with your battle system. If you have a cool story release a video showing some of your best cut-scenes. If you have cool maps use screenshots. A lot of games come of as bland because I don't see any thing special not simply because they use the RTP.

 

[CHKNRAVE]

Sometimes you just want to make a game because you want to make one, you want to tell a story, and this post can be very very discouraging for beginners. Even I will do my best to get the OP off my mind, because you can actually do good stuff using the RTP.
The screenshot in the OP looks bad because it feels empty. It needs to look busier: don't just put grassland, add more vegetation, don't make it all green, add flowers, and stuff. Give your decor more life, make them tell a story and not just 3 houses (available on Nintendo Switch) connected with a path. That's why the screenshot looks half-baked, it's not about the default graphics, it's about the work put into using these default graphics. Don't settle for the large number of animations given at the start, set the max to 0 then use the assets to make them come from you.

And guess what? If you just use assets by somebody else and use them just as half-assedly, it's going to look just as bad as a half-baked RTP game. You can cover your turd in glitter, it's still going to be gross and smelly.

 

[Twisted]

Maybe its just a sign of the times.

I remember as a kid, as im sure alot on here will. The Atari, Sega master system, Sega Megadrive(Genesis for you yanks ), Playstation One etc etc.......
And everytime, me and my friends would say "The graphics are awesome".
Everybody nowadays wants 3d this and that. Maybe its just 2d is out of date in general.

I myself use Rpg Maker as it allows me to make games without coding, I mean i could learn unity or C++. I do have App game kit studio which is a basic language but theres still never enough time to learn when you work full time, and cannot give 8 hours per day to your project.

2D games will always be the start of it all, but with the constant upgrades in technology can we really expect the continued support of the gaming community in general?

I personally dont think default graphics matter at all, its more the bigger picture in the long run.

Heres my example:

My son was born in May 2020 (Thank You). In ten years time when i show him what consoles dad used to play. What do you think he will say?

He will say "Dad, Streets Of Rage is awesome but...i'm now plugged into the matrix"

The market for 2D games, RPG or otherwise is shrinking daily. It has its fans like me and you. I am now in my 30's, i remember the graphics from old lol. The adults of today only recall Playstation or Xbox.

Default content is not the issue, progression is the problem. If it ain't 3D it must be rubbish.
This is obviously not true for those who grew up on Pokemon or Zelda etc etc.

Now in my opinion graphics do not matter to people of a certain age -children say 5-11.
We've all seen the crap kids play today, but that is where the money is.

Repetitive Rubbish with an educational spin. Don't be ashamed for doing the same, companies around the world do it all day every day and make millions.

Focus less on the graphics and more on the target audience and thus the game content.

Some of you may agree some may disagree

But Streets Of Rage, come on........Best graphics ever!

Regards
Mat

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

I think if people's games are getting passed by and not played, supposedly because they are RTP heavy, is more likely because of poor screenshots to advertise the game; and these poor screenshots show off boring looking gameplay. First thing I look at when I see games/demos for RM is the screenshots section. I look at that portion as the dev's chance at a first impression. If the best shots of the game are large empty maps and an average-ish looking battle scene image, then that's when I pass it by. I've passed up on plenty of games that were that were full of custom assets that also showcased crappy screenshots.

Over the years, I've seen and played a lot of very good games that were fully RTP, more than what I can count on my hand even...

 

[Redeye]

I'm gonna be honest, whenever I see a super artsy and custom RPG Maker game on Steam or this forum, I generally assume that the game has lackluster gameplay. You know what I'm talking about: Those super pretty artsy games that uses the DTB and their skills amount to tiered single-effect spells like Fire I, Fire II, Cure, etc. The only real exception is when the dev finished their game completely BEFORE hunting down custom assets. Your chances of being a good artist / budget manager AND a good game designer / programmer are very slim. Me? My forte is story and gameplay. I can draw, but not good enough to put in a game (And I'm terrible at drawing with a mouse). One of my projects only has custom enemy graphics (non-commercial, so I can't sell the game). That's about it. From there, all I need is good mapping (Which I actually somewhat enjoy) and maybe some pictures and screen tinting for ambient weather effects. That's all it takes to make the RTP look pretty.

 

[CraneSoft]

I'll start off by saying the OP's correct that the whole "RTP = bad" phenomena is the result of lazily made pure RTP games flooding the market with barely any substance. The harsh reality is: We are living in a sea of rotten apples - 9 times out of 10, a game with pure RTP will be bad or mediocre at best because most devs weren't really serious about it. Any dev remotely serious will not be using 100% RTP because there are a LOT of free resources out there, or at the very least will make RTP look good. The exceptions come once in a full moon, the rare gems within the mountain of garbage, and that is assuming if that one exception gets on your radar in the 1st place. Most just remain buried because well, they looked just like any other full RTP game so why bother trying playing it? New RPGMaker games get released every few days, but a good game only comes in monthly intervals (if you are lucky). Play the math.

Personally I don't approve pure RTP (meaning RTP only, AND without any polishing like OP's example), I expect the dev (that's not half-assing) to at least put in the bare minimum effort of making their game, commercial or not, at least stand out from others, and don't look like something out of a college project if they intend to release it.