Over protecting our character?

nio kasgami

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Hi people! 

so I go with a subject who will surelly hit all the people!

do you even notice in game or just in art we protect to much our protagonist? 

I mean most of time we make them over slim and almost perfect but ...all people know this not all perfect : 3

so people why we protect our main character why we not put them a little fat...having bipolar personality?

why we not giving default to our character? is because we are scare people not like them? 

for myself I think this give personality and meat to the story and character!

so what are you opinion people and if you have to create a new game where the character is not perfect..how do you will do that for make them appreciate by the public?
 

Ms Littlefish

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I for one love anti hero characters. I love a cast that is filled with otherwise mundane, damaged, and/or unheroic people. I also love games that are self aware of trope/cliches and make it a joke to be made fun of. It's interesting, more realistic, and there are a lot more options. I'm pretty tired with "dude that carries a huge sword."
 
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Archeia

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My main protagonists all die a horrible death in 1232131 ways possible (called bad endings.) Even if they survive they all have a fate worse than death scenario anyway...so I'm pretty sure they're not getting any over protection from me :3


As for physical look, it depends on what the plot demands.
 

nio kasgami

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I for one love anti hero characters. I love a cast that is filled with otherwise mundane, damaged, and/or unheroic people. I also love games that are self aware of trope/cliches and make it a joke to be made fun of. It's interesting, more realistic, and there are a lot more options. I'm pretty tired with "dude that carries a huge sword."
myself I hate when the hero is perfect ...they seem to not have any flaws...like they will win even if the guy is a badass monster....when they have imperfections the enemy can use them for coarse the adventure! 

Archeia : My main protagonists all die a horrible death in 1232131 ways possible (called bad endings.) Even if they survive they all have a fate worse than death scenario anyway...so I'm pretty sure they're not getting any over protection from me :3

As for physical look, it depends on what the plot demands.

....don't try archeia we all know you love torturing your character > : 3 !
 
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mlogan

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In my Alchemist Son series, none of my characters are without flaws. The main character is a nerdy, insecure young man who has no confidence in his own abilities (at first).

The female lead has her own emotional issues. Furthermore, I specifically commissioned an artist who would draw her with a more realistic (read: fat by many peoples' standards).

The other male lead starts the series off as a theif/thug/criminal/bully. Throughout the series he begins to redeem himself, but not without mistakes and not without moments of being judged for his past.

Perhaps it's a lot to put into game characters, but I wanted real people, so that players could relate to one of them in some way.
 

Diretooth

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What I love to do is start with normal character. Just everyday nice guys, maybe a few bad guys. Then, as they grow into their strange world, be it them being the chosen one, or just getting caught in a mess, their experiences color their perspective.

I can start with an overly optimistic all-loving hero, and have him become jaded and become ruthless because simply being all-loving doesn't mean much if people still die.
 

Psyker

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I think a lot of this depends on how attached we grow to our characters.  As we see them progress we "care" for them and don't want to see them harmed or hurt in anyway (i.e. physical, emotional, death).
 

nio kasgami

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I think a lot of this depends on how attached we grow to our characters.  As we see them progress we "care" for them and don't want to see them harmed or hurt in anyway (i.e. physical, emotional, death).
certaintly but I think most of time put them into difficulty can spice the character no?
 

Psyker

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Definitely, well written scenarios with characters in dangerous situations can be great.  I think people undervalue this as a tool in design.  Best reference I have is Game of Thrones.  No character is truly safe in those books or series.
 

mlogan

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Oh yes Psyker, good example. I've also always loved in those books that there are no real clear cut good guys or bad guys - just a bunch of insanely messed up people trying to survive. A bit like real life. (And yeah, I realize that some of the characters are more "bad" than others.)
 
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rpglover88

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For me, theres no such thing as a "perfect character". Some players might like your characters, others will totally hate them and other players will be like "Meh... He/she's ok i guess. I dont hate him/her but i dont like him/her that much either." I just make my characters the way i want and if you like them, thats cool but if you hate them, thats fine too. Just go play another game if youre not happy.
 

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In the video games and P&P RPGs I've done, I try to give my characters a lot of personality and motivation, as well as some idiosyncracies.  But I do shamelessly idealize them, and err on the side of giving them good fortune.  Why?

For one, it's escapism.  While I don't mind a good cry or gut-punch every once in a while, I really don't like feeling vicariously "robbed" by what happens to my characters.  I think that unbelievable bad things that happen to characters damage a work's value much more than unbelievable good things.  Similarly, I (and most people) are going to feel more interested and compelled by a likeable but generic character than a character that's unique but unlikeable enough to repulse them.

Secondly, I don't labor under the illusion that I'm a fantastic writer, so I go with the safer options.  It requires a much better writer to sell a troubled character than an idealized one.  Not only are they harder to like, but the templates for them haven't been as well-established in any media, so it's harder to know how the character should react to things and it's harder for the audience to identify and understand the character.
 
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Diretooth

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I'd also like to add, that as a writer who's written many books, yet published none due to perfectionism and crippling anxiety, I can understand wanting to protect one's character, as you watch them grow and want them to never be in danger. Whenever a character dies for me, and I never really plot things out, I just write it all by the seat of my pants, it's often surprising and emotional, as it's like watching one's own kin die.

My perspective is, if the character cannot be enjoyed and mourned with their inevitable passing, then they are not a real character, or are non-redeemable.
 

cybrim

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Take Berserk for instance, LOVE it. Here you have a guy in really extreme situations, sure he's got his big sword but there's a reason for it. Read it, if you are uninspired by all of the crap he goes through you were too weak at heart to see the awesome sauce.
 

whitesphere

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An interesting example of a complex character, for those who've read the series, is Rand al'Thor from the Wheel of Time series.  I've only read a few books in the series, but the summary is:

1. Rand is the Chosen One

2. At first, Rand flat out denies he is

3. Rand grows into his role --- but people immediately start using him for their own advantage.

Also, they make VERY clear the power Rand is using has been tainted, so EVERY man who has it will eventually go insane and die.

So we see Rand grow from naive farmboy to a "Chosen One" who has learned hard lessons not to trust anyone, because EVERYONE wants him for some purpose.

So you can make a simple character who becomes complex due to external forces.

Personally, my characters flaws are more subtle.  My concern there, aside from needing a lot of skill to pull that off, is it could easily break gameplay and story segregation.  In story, if you have a character who is reckless, you'd have him/her do certain things.  But doing that in an RPG game context yanks control of the character out of the player's hands and I believe strongly that's a Bad Thing to Do.  Why?  Because as a developer I need to decide precisely HOW the player loses control, and then force the party to do something to trigger a part of the plot.
 

omen613

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See this is why I hate Superman...the guy is flawless and completely boring. And when people say his flaw is that he loves humanity too much makes me wanna barf my fruit loops. 

I'll take Iron Man and his lovable flaws any day. The guy is completely guided by his ego and even straight up says "I'm Ironman" to the media because he loves the attention. He has created villains because he is a total prick sometimes and put his finger in their pie causing them to snap and go super villain on everyone. Tho I personally wish he stayed a single bachelor for it would of opened a lot more selfish, attention seeking doors to the story.

People in real life are a lot more selfish and cowardly. Look at Captain Jack Sparrow in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. He double crosses the villains and the Heroes left and right the entire series to advance his selfish goals. He is one of my favorite characters of all times and the only thing that he wants in life is to be immortal because he fears death....ironically the roads he takes to search for immortality are incredibly dangerous and have usually killed all previous people who attempted the same thing.

Edit****

Another thing...When giving your characters flaws. Make it so the player can come to the conclusion all by themselves. You don't have to have a character say "Damn that Ralph is a womanizer, he is such a pig and always hitting on any girl that crosses his path." Animes are a big culprit of this /facepalm

Just have Ralph straight up hit on any girl that crosses his path and the player will just think to themselves "oh that Ralph is at it again"
 
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hian

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I don't really know if the premise of your commentary really holds. I don't think I've played many RPGs where the heroes are perfect. They all have flaws in one way or another, even if that flaw isn't bipolar disorder, or being out of shape.

I think the problem with certain flaws, is that they can be so pronounced that they end up dictating what sort of story you can tell. It really depends on what kind of story you want to tell, or what sort of game-play you want to design, and you should usually jot that down before you end up designing the particulars of your characters, unless of course, you want to make a character driven narrative and design everything around that.

It's also worth mentioning that "relatability" is usually an important factor if you want a story to hit a wide, or big audience.

Telling a story about a bipolar person for instance, is difficult, not only because it would require you to be well-versed on bipolar disorder in order to tell that story in the way that it deserves, but because many people might find it hard to relate to regardless because they have no experience with it.

(I for instance, have a close friend who's life was nearly ruined by a girl with a bipolar. He developed depression and was forcefully admitted to a psyche-ward for observation after attempting to kill himself, so I would probably not feel very comfortable playing a game that didn't tactfully address the reality of mental and personality disorders.)

Similarly, many people play games as a kind of escapism. A lot of people pretend to be above that - usually, they just desire a different kind of escapism and aren't aware of what they're doing.

I get to see the unattractive, mundane, depressive and harsh sides of reality every day, just by walking outside, or on my extra-job.

In playing games, I want to experience a good story and game-play, of course, but often I also want to the story and game-play to reflect things I don't get to see or do every day.

Ridiculously visually appealing characters, supernatural abilities and fantastical vistas of physically impossible architecture and nature, all appeal viscerally to something deep within most people. It can take you out on a cloud, and drain you of the emotional heaviness that reality sometimes inspires. There is something profound about that kind of art as well.

I like to think of games, in terms of an analogy, as pending on a spectrum between Rococo and Realism, in terms of the spirit of their design.

(games ranging from Super Mario to Bayonetta, being the Rococo, and games like Gone Home and the likes as being Realism).

There's room for both, but they speak to two completely different set of emotions and values, and due to the nature and history of gaming, I think you'll find that more gamers than not (going by sales numbers and general sentiments online), lean towards to "Rococo gaming" , rather than the heavier and more moody "Realism Games".

(Note that I am not using Realism here as analogy to realistic games. This analogy is about overall spirit and style, rather than whether the game is realistic or not. I'd put games like Gears of War under Rococo in this category, because the spirit of the game is more in line with games like Bayonetta, with the ridiculously over-dramatic set-pieces, and power-fantasy theme, than with games from the other side of the spectrum).
 

Diretooth

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I think the problem with certain flaws, is that they can be so pronounced that they end up dictating what sort of story you can tell. It really depends on what kind of story you want to tell, or what sort of game-play you want to design, and you should usually jot that down before you end up designing the particulars of your characters, unless of course, you want to make a character driven narrative and design everything around that.
That's known as flanderization, where a certain trait gets exaggerated to the point that it becomes the character.

But, sometimes that's not bad. Sometimes, it's a viable form of characterization that can be justified, such as a magical sword causing almost dogmatic affiliation with being good, or killing monsters.
 

hian

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That's known as flanderization, where a certain trait gets exaggerated to the point that it becomes the character.

But, sometimes that's not bad. Sometimes, it's a viable form of characterization that can be justified, such as a magical sword causing almost dogmatic affiliation with being good, or killing monsters.
That's not what I was thinking about. My point was that certain character traits are by definition "high note". They are "exaggerated" by nature of being extreme character traits.

Bipolar disorder is a serious issue that pretty much effects every aspects of a person's life. You can't write a character with bipolar, and then have the disorder play a backseat position (unless you're making a comedic piece or something to that effect).

So, if you choose for whatever reason to have a character suffer from bipolar disorder, that's probably going to demand that you write the plot in a certain way lest you want to end up writing a ****ty plot, or a poor depiction of bipolar disorder, neither of which are very good things to do.

My advice is that, unless you know a a lot about, or have experience with extreme character "flaws"(calling personality or mental disorders flaws is kinda problematic in and of itself in my opinion), and unless you plan to truly incorporate that into your narrative, then you're better off not doing it at all.

Simple and commonly understood flaws are popular in fiction for a reason - because pretty much everyone can relate to them, and they're much harder to get wrong because they don't require special knowledge or experience to spin into a good story.
 

Millefeuille

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I'm going to respond to this thread based on the assumption that somebody is designing a character-driven game. Not all games —RPGs included— always need flawed characters with conflicted personalities and complex pasts. It really depends on what you want your project to accomplish. To illustrate this I'm not even going to focus on RPGs as a case study.

People really love characters that are flawed. These days dark and gritty and scary are tops. Shows like Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, and The Walking Dead are really, insanely popular! The more messed up and juicy the dirt is in a character's past, the better. Because of recent trends, I think that flawed anti-hero characters are enjoying popularity in a world where good and evil is no longer clear cut between black and white.

Perfect, god-like characters now feel juvenile and cartoonish in their scope. Let's take Superman again as an example (silver age, any age, whatever...). The guy radiates perfection and his most portrayed flaw is merely a biological weakness. He is the epitome of right, might, and yes even the "American way". Some people are really entertained by his actions and lore, but as an actual character I don't believe there's a lot of substance for people to latch onto. Superman may have been a hero of choice in another decade, but is ultimately a reflection of his time. That brand of escapism hit its expiration date a loooong time ago.

To contrast with an older character that has been successfully modernized, Tony Stark is currently quite popular. He's attractive, confident, courageous, and also deeply flawed. All of these aspects come together to make something is overwhelmingly cool and appealing to audiences. He's a jerkwad and has to be showy and pretentious in even the tiniest actions, but these behaviors are portrayed in a way that people can't help but love. Reaching into the far positive corner, Stark's lofty ideas about world peace and an uncharacteristically empathetic side betrays preconceptions about billionaire industrialists. While these features are good fun, he's most human when we see Stark battling numerous insecurities and has a history of alcoholism. To magnify his problems, he lives in the shadow of his father and more than one movie's plot consists of him having to surpass his old man.

The point I want people to take from this is that we don't have to make characters perfect to protect or shield them from audience criticisms. Fiction is best when it's written fearlessly, and audiences enjoy character flaws because they're interesting and relatable. I'm not saying everybody can relate to a cancer-plagued druglord, but it's the smaller aspects of personalities that hit home.

I think the problem with certain flaws, is that they can be so pronounced that they end up dictating what sort of story you can tell. It really depends on what kind of story you want to tell, or what sort of game-play you want to design, and you should usually jot that down before you end up designing the particulars of your characters, unless of course, you want to make a character driven narrative and design everything around that.
Well, yeah. I don't think anybody can disagree with this, but the insight here is pretty important for budding writers nonetheless. Stories where characters have a deep or even tragic flaw usually need to have a resolution to this as a major aim of the plot resolution. That or the flaw is just exposition to illustrate some kind of didactic meaning. As yet another example, Evangelion's existential crises are overshadowed by the cast's crippling emotional instability and as a result many of the conflicts boil down to confronting these issues. The flaws should service your story, of course. Ho, ho, ho... :troll:

TOO LONG VERSION: flaws good. human like. make me feel good about self.
 

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