Parameter growth, Paper mario, Final Fantasy or WoW?

[Ramiro]

Well this is a disccusion I plan to ask, on about hat is your perspective about the stat parameter growth in games.

Aside for being many ways like STR influences AT like in  RMXP, giving directly an attack value like in VX, I am asking on how you prefer to maintain the values of those stats.

For example, in The RPG Maker using the "automatic ranks" like "atk A", "def B", "mhp C" etc follows the "Final fantasy formula" of starting low (like 30) and ending huge (like 4829).

I personally dislike this system And prefer the system used in paper mario, when 2 atk points really does a large different in combat.

There are systems where ther numbers went really up in comparison (Take for example WoW before Cataclysm and in Pandaria, dealing 200 damage to 34372, because that escalated quickly from 60 to 80)

I am planning to make a discussion about why would you prefer one style or the other, I choose the really small numbers because they are easier (for me) to count or plan ahead for more turns than if I had to manage large numbers, even when most of those numbers are almost all primes (2, 3, 7, 13)

This also is one of the changes in the stat system in D&D 3.5 to 4.0, look how the numbers are bigger in the 4th version.

Of course, no stat system is "perfect", but it is usually a good idea to see why developers may choose one over the other (and no, "technical limitations to store a party's information" is no longer the case nowdays).

Remeber, this is a case on "how much attack my character should have" not "how my character has an attack value" type of discussion.

See ya

 

[Schlangan]

I guess that the system might depend on what you want to do. As long as you tweak the damage formulas, you can set the use of stats points as you deem so. In my case, some characters are million times stronger than others, because you need a separate strength between mortal, gods, titans, and the likes. Because of this, the values may become very high. But it also poses the problem of irrelevant values at some point.


Since my whole story is too big to fit in a single RPG Maker Game, it will be told through many "episodes". And to avoid exponential values of stats, their values will become lower by changing units between episodes. Someone with 2000 on something might go down to 20 in the next episode. In that way, it follows a certain increase, without reaching incoherent values. As you were speaking about WoW, that's what they did between Pandaria and Draenor, they decreased the stats to reduce the values. Because there are still limitations for the values, you cannot exceed in many languages 1E+308 in numerical values or you have to switch to a tricky system involving strings or data structures.


Now, if a game is based on a more realistic viewpoint, with stats for training the body and mind, in that case, using values as 1 to 10 might be enough. I mean, a person 10 times stronger than another is already a lot. As a matter of fact, there is no "best" system. People should select what is the most convenient for them.

 

[Ramiro]

Now, if a game is based on a more realistic viewpoint, with stats for training the body and mind, in that case, using values as 1 to 10 might be enough. I mean, a person 10 times stronger than another is already a lot. As a matter of fact, there is no "best" system. People should select what is the most convenient for them.

Be aware, 10 may or may not mean 10 times stronger. Sometimes 10 means 1 billon times, this things don't escalate well sometimes.

If you have 50 Hit points, and damage is calculated as atk - def, having 100 atk vs someone with 50 def is not being half its power, it's actually more. 

But it's a good idea on why you prefer one style over the other and the advantage of using one or the other.

Another aspect is Your player's stat growth does not need to be the same as the enmies, just look at Ragnarok online, some enemies have 500 points in STR because they are gods (or something like that) while the max you can get is half of that.

WoW had to resolve arround the "power creep" they are having, also they have to give a solution to inflation, it's a great material to look on how developers try to resolve pretty much problems of real life.

You know, using integers bigger than 2^64 usually revolves arround using an array of integers or some tricky things wich are slower yes, but that is not a true "limitation" their true limitation is because they have a problem of "power creep" and they need to make new content...

Rising the level cap should never be a true solution, but it's the only one people know well for the moment.

I am not asking wich stat progresion is better, but why for you having large numbers, or small numbers is an advantage or a flaw of your design, to compare them and nothing else.

 

[Schlangan]

Be aware, 10 may or may not mean 10 times stronger. Sometimes 10 means 1 billon times, this things don't escalate well sometimes.


If you have 50 Hit points, and damage is calculated as atk - def, having 100 atk vs someone with 50 def is not being half its power, it's actually more.

Of course, once again it depends on the chosen formulas. So as for your exact question, the reason why having large numbers is an advantage in my case, is due on how I created my damages formulas, and based on power levels I defined throughout my story. It would work with lower values and different formulas, but I just kept like that because I like it. And suddenly seeing a crazy amount of damages that wipe a character in one shot helps to put in the state of mind kind of "They used a nuclear attack to kill a fly ". It also helps me to make inherent references to other games; one character does not want to reveal its true strength, so he decided to block his stats at 255 exactly, a max limit that existed in the past in some games ^^

 

[normancampbell]

I have also played these games and I have scored good enough points. I will acheter world of warcraft the latest of WOW.

 

[Celianna]

@normancampbell please stay on topic, this is not a discussion about these games, it's about parameters growth like those games.

 

[Wavelength]

I like starting low (most stats around 10-30) and scaling gently through the course of the game (so that characters are naturally breaking 100 late game, after a few dozen level-ups), with considerable bonuses from equipment and other bonuses (like items or passive stat gains from a skill tree).  Sometimes I fix their HP and MP at 100 (to represent a "percentage"), or sometimes I let HP scale from a few hundred up to a couple thousand (and MP scale to a much smaller extent), depending on the type of formulae I'm using for skills.

 

[woootbm]

Personally I don't care if parameter growth is slow or fast, or if the numbers are big or small. I think games in general tend to treat 3 digit damage hits as "good," and four digits is "awesome." They might start off in 2 digits, but then get into 3 quickly after getting out of the tutorial area. A lot of games also don't care to communicate how stats cause these numbers to happen, and that drives me nuts. How WoW can get away with such big numbers is crazy. I mean, it just becomes gibberish when the number takes up your whole screen!

What I always want is for upgrading stats to feel like it really matters. Low numbers make this easier to achieve, like in your Paper Mario example. Or in something like old DnD where having over 18 in a stat made you super human/deity level powerful. But the thing I watch for to see if points matter is TTK, or "time to kill." Say you have an enemy with 100 health and you do 35 damage a hit. That means you can kill that enemy in three hits. Let's say you equip something that increases your damage by 40%, making you deal 49 damage. 40% is a lot! But an enemy with 100 health would still take 3 hits to kill. This is an oversimplification as there will always be other factors going on, but the point is this can make the upgrade feel worthless if the player is paying close attention.