Party Classes and Balance

[Blackyu]

The title might not be very clear, so I'll explain :


We all know the "Classes" in a RPG, they're used to distinguish actors and "guess" their abilities.


For example, a Warrior is often considered as "The Main Class", as many main characters have that class. The Warrior is often quite strong, rather balanced stat-wise and can hold big weapons or swords and wear heavy armor.


However, making classes also means making movesets and setting up stats.


When I first started making games, I didn't mind that much about the importance of stat differences between the many different classes. I was wrong, as the stats are very important to differentiate classes. They are the key to having a balanced party, with every actor having their advantages and flaws.


Recently, I just so happened to finish working on the different classes in my latest project, and I asked myself "What do other people choose when it comes to having unique and different classes in actor parties ?"


So, I wanted to know your opinions on the matter : What classes do you use in your games ? With what type of movesets do these classes go ? What stats do you set for them ?


If you're interested, here's my setup (placed in a spoiler to prevent this post from being a little too long) :

Spoiler

I have a total of 7 actors in my game. It's a Horror game, so of course they won't all be together. They will be split up in different groups before the remaining survivors (Yes, some actors will die) finally meet each other.


7 actors means 7 different classes, so here's what I made :

• The first class is the usual "playable-by-everyone" class : It has balanced stats, uses both physical and magical techniques, and has very minimal mono-target support (The actor has a small heal spell, but it's far from being an actual Healer class.)
  

• The second class is the "physical-only" class : Low defenses (both physical and magical), but has very high stats in Attack and HP. The moveset includes many strong, physical attacks, and also some self-buffs. (Some people may not know, but a "buff" is just a stat increase, it that case, the actor can self-buff the Attack and Crit.Chance stats.)
  

• The third class is the "actor-supporting" class : High Agility stat so it may act first, and also high Max PM. This class has an almost full-support moveset : mono- and multi-target healing, stat buffs and its ultimate spell (The usual move-that-consumes-100-TP) consists of making the whole team perfectly invincible for 1 entire turn. This class also has an HP absorption spell, but it makes very minor damage, giving this class the only but very important utility of healing and helping party members.
  

• The fourth class is the "evasive tank" class : Very high Defenses (Physical & Magical) and HP. The core of its gameplay consists of using a Taunt move (increasing the actor's chance of being attacked), and then following it by an Evasion move (increasing attack evasion chance). This class also has some moves that have a chance to inflict statuses, making the class useful for crowd control. The evasive tank may also have a "Bodyguard" Skill or a skill to gain TP. Also, a little case-specific, but the main party leader in my game is this class, so I also added some "Leader Skills", such as motivating party members, buffing them, and, in that case, the Ultimate Skill (that costs 100 TP, as a reminder) consists of sending the whole team at the same time on an enemy, dealing a very high but constant amount of damage.
  

• The fifth class is the "mindbender magic" class : Contrary to the popular mage that often has "elemental"-type spells, the mindbender magic uses psychic powers to harm the enemy, often inflicting troublesome statuses such as Blindness, Confusion, and even Possession. The Mindbender has high Magic Attack, Max PM and Agility. The goal of this class is very simple : "Do a lot of damage using magic, and if it inflicts a status, that's even better !". Also, still being case-specific : In my game, the Mindbender is a beautiful college student, so she can charm ennemies. Also, she's blind so I decreased her Precision.
  

• The sixth class is the "glass canon" class : For those who are not familiar with the term, a glass canon is a character that deals insanely high damage but has very low Max HP, making it vulnerable at any moment. Well that's the case here, this actor is made only for pure damage, but must be buffed or protected by a tank to avoid being one-hit-killed by ennemies. Here, instead of just having moves that deal very high damage, I chose to program moves that deal medium damage, but hit a lot of times (There's a move that hits an enemy 8 times, so that still makes high damage at the end, but a chance is still left for enemies with high Evasion stats.)
  

• The seventh and final class is the "trouble lucker" class : As the name implies, a lucker class is based on the Luck stat. This class has rather balanced stats, except its Luck stat, which is very high. The trouble lucker has many skills that inflict statuses to prevent the ennemies to move, and his attacks are random. One of them can vary up to 100% damage, and the ultimate attack of this class is a Random Attack that can deal a random amount of damage between 1000 and 20000. That's a lot, but you need to be lucky yourself to play a lucker.
  

Those are the seven classes I used in my games. If you have something to say about them, don't hesitate to tell, I'd love to get feedback on the actual balance of my party member classes.


Also, if you read this whole post including the spoiler in one go, let me congratulate you.


Have a cookie, too.

 

[HexMozart88]

That's a pretty good layout. Just make sure you let the player choose which actors they want to use at any given moment, so they can train a specific one when they feel like it. Good idea 

 

[Blackyu]

I'm not sure if you mean "Let the player decide which actors he wants to get in fights in that specific party", or "Let the player decide which actor party he wants to play as."


As said in the spoiler, the actors are split up in different groups. Every group will have less than 5 members, 2~4 different actors in any group, to be more specific, so if you're talking about the actors in one particular group, then no need for the player to change the 4 first actors that will battle. Plus, I have a script to have more than 4 members in battle, so every actor will receive the same amount of exp, allowing the player to actually play the game instead of grinding one actor.


If you meant "Let the player choose their parties so they can exp the actors of different parties whenever they want", then I can't. Actually, I was talking about a Bonus Episode unlockable in the end game. This Episode contains all the actors and is divided in 6 chapters, with a death at the end of each of them, except the last one. And the thing is, you control a different party each chapter, so I can't really let the player choose their party.

 

[HexMozart88]

I'm not sure if you mean "Let the player decide which actors he wants to get in fights in that specific party", or "Let the player decide which actor party he wants to play as."

I mean since you said that they will be split up, you should let the player switch groups at any time, so that they can go back and forth if they get stuck and still benefit. Just a suggestion ^w^   

 

[LuLingqi1]

Currently, in my game, my characters and their classes are pretty unique. It follows base guide lines of "Warrior" stuff, but it's not like that in the least. I'll show you each character and their classes + subclasses. If they're withing ** that's a class, if it's in ## that is a subclass. Note: They're classes are all story related as well haha.
 

Spoiler

Kyler- **Guardian, Blesser, Priest** In general, amongst all three of Kyler's classes are his base healing and buffing abilities.


As a Guardian, his abilities revolve more around shielding and tanking for his allies. As a Blesser, he loses his tankyness and is able to increase his allies stats. As a Priest, he isn't much of a buffer or a tank, but instead is able to dish out some of the strongest heals in the game, and revive allies. However, he is not to be mistaken for a support character, as he is able to properly buff himself/heal himself whilst weaving in attacks to appropriately dish out damage.


Carlina- **Caster, Summoner, Sorceress**


As a Caster, Carlina uses magic to deal damage. She is mostly adept at fire, and learns mostly fire base abilities. Being alone for a small portion of the game, she learns aoe abilities early on. As a Summoner, she casts spells that summon creatures to aid her. (( while this has not been worked out yet, the mechanics of this class is that Carlina tags out with what is essentially an enemy monster that she "summons" for a number of turns before having to recast. )) As a Sorceress, Carlina's magic opens up to much more than just her basic damage abilities and gives her access to fighting with melee weapons.



##Elemental, Weaver, Magus; Overlord, Caregiver; Witch, Arcane## 


Carlina's subclass Elemental, opens her up to learning new skills that aren't fire related, allowing her to be a much more rounded combatant. Weaver on the other hand, does not open new skills but allows her to use two abilities per turn as opposed to just one. Magus gives her access to one powerful skill and some stat boosts. Overlord allows Carlina access to skills that are much more deadly to her enemies when using her summons, as well as giving her a small amount of debuff abilities upon casting spells. Caregiver allows her to lightly heal her allies and buff her summons upon using a summon. Using the Witch subclass, Carlina has a familiar that buff her stats constantly, as well as applying basic attacks with her for bonus damage. She also gains a defensive ability that allows her to fly out of the battleground to be safe for damage. She can then cast one ability while in the air. While using arcane, almost all of her defensive stats are dropped drastically, but her magic damage is increased some, and she is able to absorb magic damage.


Ayra- **Spirit of Rini, Image of Rini, Transcendent**


Ayra is a fairy with the soul of the old queen within her, and her abilities reflect it in their strength. As a Spirit of Rini, Ayra has few spells, but they come with serious punches, along with one powerful sustain ability. As an Image of Rini, Ayra has more abilities, while openly weaker than her Spirit of Rini class, their lower costs are beneficial, and she also is able to heal other allies somewhat. As a Transcendent, Ayra's abilities are no longer related to Rini, and are more malicious than her past classes. She retains sustainability, however it is tied to the amount of damage she can deal. Ayra is a mage in a sense, but where as Carlina, our other mage, can seamlessly cast and cast away, Ayra can not. She is heavily reliant on using her base attacks, and weapons that apply on-hits are quite beneficial for her as she can deal major damage.



##Practioner, Mender; Fae, Relic, Anomoly, Queen##


Ayra's first subclass, Practioner, is similar to Kyler's Blessing class. With Practioner, she is able to buff and debuff enemies, however each skill selects a random target. She also has increased regeneration effects with this class. As a Mender Ayra's healing is boosted and now has an Healing Over Time effect added to it. As a Fae, Ayra gains access to flight, which is similar to Carlina's defensive ability as a Witch, but Ayra can choose to cas flight on an ally. As a Relic, Ayra gains a passive chance to dazzle her enemies, confusing them for a turn or two. She also get's access to an ultimate ability that can warp her allies back in time to what there health was at before each turn taken in the rotation that Ayra casted the skill.

I'm too tired to keep writing. With my classes, I like them to not be classes, but a part of the character. There's a story to these characters, and a personality, and I think their abilities and classes should reflect that. While some classes are locked by story progression -- this is true in the case of all of Ayra's classes --, most of them become accessible through leveling up in other classes. I have yet to really see how this balances my characters, but I figured it would make each playthrough unique, and add huge replayability. Alone, with their starting classes, each character has a solid weight and reason to be in the party at certain times. When you add in the ability to have multiple class and sub class combos, it's pretty cool.


Is having Kyler as a Priest in the party stronger than having Ayra as an Image of Rini Mender? Or do you have them both in the party as healers, while Carlina is a Sorceress Arcane?


I feel like, in a game when there's only one class per character, it kind of makes certain party members useless.


In your case, you wont run into "this member is useless versus this member" due to the party being pre-made and unalterable. I guess class creation and balancing is dependent on how the party is meant to function.


In mine, after about the second act of the game, you have the full party, which can be anywhere from 5-10 people, depending on actions taken. However, in the third act, it is possible for that number to drop by 2.


My classes allow for multiple playstyles amongst the  party as a whole, and each character specifically.


I try to think of my balancing as if it were an MMO or MOBA lol

 

[Blackyu]

I mean since you said that they will be split up, you should let the player switch groups at any time, so that they can go back and forth if they get stuck and still benefit. Just a suggestion ^w^   

Yeah, I actually decided that the player will change groups at the end of each chapter, that gives me the right to make some "off-screen storytelling" (For example, in the second chapter, there are 3 actors in one of the groups, and one of the actors gets killed by an army of elite monsters. The two other escape. In chapter 4, when one of the actors of Chapter 2 (we'll call that actor "X") rejoins the party, she says that the other fell through a hole in the floor and X was just desperately looking for help. Offscreen storytelling is actually something the player learns about, but not necessarily sees as an event, as it is told by an actual character.)

Currently, in my game, my characters and their classes are pretty unique. It follows base guide lines of "Warrior" stuff, but it's not like that in the least. I'll show you each character and their classes + subclasses. If they're withing ** that's a class, if it's in ## that is a subclass. Note: They're classes are all story related as well haha.

(not quoting the rest, that'd be too long)


You have some nice organization there ! I really like the idea of subclasses, it adds a great replayability (as you said) and it adds a charming style. Plus, every player will be able to play each character his own way, so each playthrough has a different personnality in it.


My characters don't really have story related classes, but their classes all show their personnalities. For example, the physical-only one is the usual rather explosive tomboy who claims she's not scared of anything. The player will eventually learn she IS scared of something, since she has arachnophobia. And what better way to put that phobia to use than adding a giant, intimidating and humoristic spider fight as the final boss of Chapter 3 ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[LuLingqi1]

Jesus. Christ. Spiders? Scary scary. I like how that's a boss though.

 

[Blackyu]

Don't worry about the spider being scary though, because the actual fight with the Spider is just ridiculous.


First of all, the Spider is actually named "Spider of DOOM OAO". Yes, there's actually an afraid smiley in the name of the monster. How intimidating.


And seriously, Spider of DOOM OAO has one of the funniest movesets. For instance, one of Spider of DOOM OAO's (getting tired of that name yet ?) moves actually says "Spider of DOOM OAO does a very intimidating pose !!". Then a common event will let the spider say "" (Because that same arachnid also speaks with smileys). And the funniest part is, the tomboy then throws her shoes at the spider, dealing damage to it and making the spider say "QAQ". Posing in an intimidating way just makes the Spider of DOOM OAO lose health. (Also Spider of DOOM OAO can drink vodka to regen health.)

 

[jonthefox]

assuming i'm using generic classes and not tailoring skills to unique individual actors, then i usually go with:


knight (defensive physical)


barbarian and/or swordsman (offensive physical)


wizard/witch/sorceress (offensive magic)


priest/priestess (defensive magic)


rogue (fast/utility)

 

[Blackyu]

Well, even if it's generic, the party remains balanced, so it's still a good setup.

 

[Arithmetician]

@jonthefox Well, there's a reason why those are among the most common class archetypes and have been since the old school days - they work, covering most of the basic needs of a party of adventurers.  

 

[jonthefox]

oh yeah i know, and i fall back on these a lot myself, i'm just saying that sometimes i ditch the idea of classes and just make each character their own unique class based on their personality, history, the plot of the game, etc.

 

[Blackyu]

Of course, many RPGs use those class archetypes and it doesn't bother me at all, it's totally justified to use the safer option. Some people may try to think outside the box for interesting and unique classes, but some really try too hard to be different and end up failing miserably at proposing any kind of party balance, with unstable classes and often useless extra moves, so I'm far from being against generic classes because hey, they work, no need to change a good team.

 

[Violet]

I'm one of those who wants to try a unique set of classes and skills. But I think that might add interest, because I have a fixed party at every point in the game until the final dungeon.


I really prefer fixed parties, with fixed skill sets. The first rpgs I ever played mostly had parties determined by the story, and when games headed more toward having switchable characters you could customize, I always had a feeling of something being missing. They felt "too easy" to me, even when they weren't especially easy games, because the thinky part of gameplay wasn't spread out. In order to play through the beginning, I'd have to find a strategy that used the battle system effectively-- but once found, it'd work on most of the whole game, and only a trick boss or a huge spike in difficulty would make me have to actually think about it again. So I want RPGs to force me to change characters, and with them, skill sets. I want them to force me to look again at my resources. Because no matter how hard a game is overall, if all of your thought about the battle system is either upfront or reserved for special cases, it's automatic and might as well be easy once you're able to get past the beginning. But I remember how hard Final Fantasy IV was for me before I was familiar with it-- almost every boss was hard, because I usually had to fight with a party I hadn't been using for long. (Well, that and that I had never seen an rpg before, but... details. ;P I still think it's true. It was generally considered such a hard game that they made easier versions.)


That said, since people know how to use a traditional party composition, it would be more interesting to make them use parties that aren't innately suited to make it through according to conventional wisdom. It would be good to have to figure out how to get through every area, as long using the right tactic makes it easy to handle. (Because if you had to figure out how to do it, and then had to struggle with its still being difficult, that would be frustrating. You kind of expect to be rewarded for figuring something like that out.)

 

[Blackyu]

Oh, that's quite like me. I don't have having party members that can't get in battle and that I have to switch because :


-I never think about switching


-I always stick to a same party


-When the game is so good that every possible parties seem balanced, I have no need to change a team that works.


Anyway I also prefer fixed parties, in actual videogames or my projects too. It's way easier for the creator as for the player, and it gives me a lot more freedom than a switchable party. Plus, having a pre-set party makes you focus on other things, such as the storyline, the atmosphere, the battles, anything really. To me, switching seems obsolete, there's no real need to complexify the gameplay, especially when it isn't the main attribute of the game (As said before, I make Horror and Humor games, so the games rest way more on the atmosphere, or the jokes for the latter.)

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Personally I am working off of the classic RPG Trinity archetype, & assigning multiple tiers from there.


Essentially each character will be set as one of the archetypes within the trinity. However, within the trinity there will be multiple base classes that will alter how a character evolves. So for example if they are a fighter, once the player takes control of them, they can chose between sword & shield (tank), two handed (DPS), or dual wield (DPS). What class they chose will determine what their attributes will look like as the level. Tanks higher defense, two handed higher attack, dual wield higher agility, etcetera.  


After which, as whatever class they chose levels, it will in turn unlock different advanced classes based on what class levels up. So a Rogue who focuses on dual wield melee, will get different advanced classes than a Rogue who focuses on ranged combat. & naturally classes will determine which skills a character has access to. 


However, I want to leave some element of player choice, so I am letting them unlock skills from a potential pool as their character levels defined by their character's class. Instead of trying to plot out each of my characters level by level, I want my players to determine for themselves who this character is; if they want a party of min/maxed purists archetypes they can do it, it they want a whole party of jack of all master of none balance characters they can do that to. So if they want their dual wielding assassin to also be able to cast a healing spell, I'll let them. However, that assassin is never going to be able to cast those spells as well, or cast the same spells as their cleric.


Mostly I am doing this because I want their party of their characters, to be THEIR party of THEIR characters. 

 

[Kes]

I wonder if I might remind Members that this is a discussion forum.  I'm noticing a lot recently that there is an increasing number of posts which are simply "I do this in my game" or "I do that in my game".  Sometimes when the OP asks for general ideas about something, that can be fine; but usually it is more fruitful if people say why they have chosen (or not chosen) a particular option, as well as engage with previous posters' ideas.  If we don't do that, I think we run the risk of losing the potential fruitfulness of a topic.


Thanks.

 

[Blackyu]

Personally I am working off of the classic RPG Trinity archetype, & assigning multiple tiers from there.

That's another way to do it. I somehow really like that idea of letting the player choose how their team will specialize, it's a rather common but very cool feature. I remember having thought about something similar (probably with less tiers) before, then just dropping the idea to make an easy-to-understand fixed team so the player will already have all the necessary cards in hand. I chose that only so the player may focus on something else than battles (the atmosphere, the lore, the characters, ae cætera.), but still while keeping some battles in my games. Cuz I do loves me sum good battles but not too many.

I wonder if I might remind Members that this is a discussion forum.  I'm noticing a lot recently that there is an increasing number of posts which are simply "I do this in my game" or "I do that in my game".  Sometimes when the OP asks for general ideas about something, that can be fine; but usually it is more fruitful if people say why they have chosen (or not chosen) a particular option, as well as engage with previous posters' ideas.  If we don't do that, I think we run the risk of losing the potential fruitfulness of a topic.


Thanks.

So, your point is, people just say what they've done, but not what they think about what should be done ?


If that's the case, then should I detail why I decided to pick those specific classes in my game ?

 

[Kes]

@Blackyu No, you're fine, you have put forward points for consideration, and engaged with the question.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

That's another way to do it. I somehow really like that idea of letting the player choose how their team will specialize, it's a rather common but very cool feature. I remember having thought about something similar (probably with less tiers) before, then just dropping the idea to make an easy-to-understand fixed team so the player will already have all the necessary cards in hand. I chose that only so the player may focus on something else than battles (the atmosphere, the lore, the characters, ae cætera.), but still while keeping some battles in my games. Cuz I do loves me sum good battles but not too many.

I get that, & understand that some people don't particularly care for builds & specs, trying to find the just right balance, min/maxing versus balancing, etcetera. 


However, when I make a game I am cognizant of the fact that no matter what I do, some people simply aren't going to like it, no matter what I do, or how hard I work on it. So my touchstones as it were are, "Is this a game that I would want to play?", & "What would I want to be able to do in this game?". Personally, I've always rather enjoyed games where I have more control over how my character develops; & the more control I have, the more I like it. So it stands to reason that if I like being able to control how my character develops, & I often become more invested in that character, because by defining how they develop they become My Character; some people must similarly enjoy games with those mechanics. So I included them in my own game.


Now I have played games where the character design was fixed, & have still enjoyed them. However, you inevitably seem to end up with A tier, B tier, & C tier characters, no matter how much you try to balance it. I honestly don't think I've ever played a fixed character design RPG where that wasn't the case. Even if you balance their stats & abilities, how those stats & abilities interact with the enemies stats & abilities, are going to make some characters have greater impact in a battle. For example of a really basic imbalance say Character 1 is a fire user, Character 2 is an ice user, Character 3 is a lightening user, & all of them have similar stats & abilities. However, only 7% of enemies are vulnerable (award bonus damage) to lightening, while 16% are vulnerable to ice, & 24% percent are vulnerable to fire. 


On paper the characters are all balanced, & elemental damage for each spell can convey the same damage boost, but because your player encounters enemies that are vulnerable to fire more often, Character 1 is "more powerful" in a sense. I think it gets hard to keep all those potential interactions in perspective when you get to the point when you have two, three, or even four hundred different kinds of battles that can occur over the course of your game. & I've lost count of the number of games I've played where one spell caster was simply better because there were more enemies they had bonus damage against, or fewer enemies that were resistant to their damage; & the other spell caster or spell casters simply couldn't keep up.