Pay first or product first?

[Galenmereth]

Do they really expect you to pay the moment the service is done? Is that standard practice in Norway?

Oh no, of course not. It's standard to send an invoice with a minimum of 7 days due date, although the standard is 14 days. I never ask a client to pay up front; like I said, I usually set up work agreement contracts with the payment method and plan specified clearly. I have done a few jobs where I got a part of the payment up front, simply because for some reason that was simpler for that client.

But if a client refuses to pay an artist, it doesn't help the artist one bit that they won't do future business with that client. The client loses an artist/programmer/whatever, sure, but the person who did the work gets nothing and just lost all that time working on something with no return.

As a sidenote, many of my clients are late with payments – I don't regard that as them not paying. With some of them – which are clients I trust – I've had to add a fee to each reminder I send out when they're 14 days late (that is, 14 days over the initial 14 days payment date), because their finance departments like to prolong paying as long as possible. It's economically feasible for bigger businesses or corporations I understand, but certainly not for me

 

[Diego2112]

@Shaz, you put into words everything I was trying (very unsuccessfully) to say.

@Galenmereth, it's sorry I am, my eloquence is somewhat...  Well, suffice to say that while I can THINK all the stuff, I can't exactly put it into words.  I suck at words.  I wasn't trying to say that you yourself was being disrespectful, just that your comments were somewhat...  Well, they rubbed me wrong.  Then again, that's text.  As for context of the thread, sorry, business is business-don't matter if you're an artist, or a handyman.  I fail to see the difference-render service, receive payment.  

If you want to draw up a contract, by all means, DO.  Hell, I'm all about me some contract law-so much so that when I was injured at my previous job, since I signed a contract stating "At Will Employment," when they fired me because of the injury (and to save on medical bills), I understood (as did my legal team) that I was SOL-because contract law.

SO, IF you have a fella sign a contract, that's all well and good.  

I'm just saying the general rule of thumb is render service, get paid.

Again though, that's just me and my take.  I'm somewhat...  well, as you've probably seen, different.

 

[Andar]

But if a client refuses to pay an artist, it doesn't help the artist one bit that they won't do future business with that client. The client loses an artist/programmer/whatever, sure, but the person who did the work gets nothing and just lost all that time working on something with no return.

But how does your method protect the client from being ignored by the artist?

What should someone do when the artist refuses to do the work after being paid the money in your opinion?

As I said in a post (either above or in a similiar topic) that happened to me once, the artist in question gave a very good and fast first work piece to build trust, then demanded payment for later pieces extremely early (stating that he needed the money for his son's schooling and would do the work the following months) - in the ends I had to threaten him with postings on his profile to get half of the pieces I paid for about a year later, and I'm still missing two paid pieces now (about three years later, but I didn't care after I got the really important pieces done).

Yes, you said that a contract would be your first choice - but on the internet, enforcing a contract internationally costs often more money than the services paid are worth.

In every topic of this type I always hear that most customers are reliable, but the artist should still demand payment up front to protect him from the few crooked clients. But never someone talks about how to protect the client if the artist is the crook - do you think the money is nothing to the client just because he pays for artwork?

Everyone should think about that for a while before continuing to assume that the client is the only one who could break agreements...

 

[Galenmereth]

Absolutely, it goes both ways. That's why - internationally, but also nationally if contracts seem too heavy - I would recommend paying per hour spent as you get handed parts of the work. Say you get an invoice sent for hours worked every two weeks with a 14 days due date, and you also get weekly progress updates (with screenshots or similar), and if parts of the work is completed you also get handed this; isn't that a better solution for both you (client) and the artist? I've been the client myself, too, back when I ran a two-man effort with international clients. Back then we hired people for subsets of the jobs we did - illustration, audio, video. And we did it like this because we saw it encouraged frequent updates from the artists, and more safety for both parts.

In the end you (client or artist) can get shafted no matter what. But I personally recommend a plan where the artist invoices more frequently while also keeping the client updated frequently, so that the client can see progress as often as is realistically possible for the artist, while the artist can feel safer with having sent out invoices and received payment for part of the work completed so far. This builds trust on both ends in my experience

 

[Chrome]

I think when someone is paid before hand, the work is a lot slower because the artist or whatever has less motivation to complete it. Also money up front is such a rare business practice every where else. Like back in high school where I mow lawns for money. Never do I get money before hand. What if the customer is not happy...is he gonna ask for half of his money back? that would be so awkward, lol. Also generally its the person that has the money has the power. 

The customer pays only after they seen a satisfied demo/ watermark version seems the best way to protect both parties. Paying before hand seems dumb. 

 

[Ronove]

For me it really depends who I'm doing work for. If it is someone I know and are friends with, I will happily do the product first with no questions. However, if it's someone I do not know in the least and they have no reputation, I want money up front before I even start work. It's like an insurance that you aren't going to be burned.

In addition, having money first in no way diminishes my motivation. It is also in no way comparable to mowing lawns. You either mow the lawn correctly or you don't--art has a lot of wiggle room and sometimes it takes a bit to get exactly what the client wants (and if they keep having you completely redo it from scratch after each WIP, you deserve to be compensated for that because the client clearly doesn't know what good directions are). If someone wants me to do 10 portraits for their game and we work an agreement on how much that is and I get through half of them and they disappear and avoid any emails, etc. it is FRUSTRATING as hell that I wasted my time and I have no money to show for it. If I have half the money up front, then it mitigates the frustration and at least my time wasn't completely wasted.

Of course, it all depends on who you are doing the work for and for what. I only know about how it feels to do portraits for people. Tilesets and spritework I think are a whole different experience altogether.

Edit: Also if you do pay the artist half the money (or full and if you do full right away I think you aren't the brightest), and the artist ignores you, spread that around. Tell other people what the artist did and make sure other people are aware of their tricks. You can do serious harm to an artist's client list if it gets around they stole your money and ran.

 

[Napoleon]

Unless there is already a trusted relationship between both parties I'd say pay first (even if it's in parts) no matter what. Especially if it's via PayPal because it gives you a 30-day money back guarantee. This makes it pretty safe for both parties.

 

[Chrome]

PayPal does not protect you from digital purchases.

 

[Napoleon]

I didn't know that. They refunded a digital purchase for me once. Which was also the only refund I ever committed through a complaint. Guess I got lucky then .

 

[West Mains]

PayPal does not protect you from digital purchases.

That's what Trading Standards and stuff like that is for.

 

[phoenix_rossy]

This is a tough one for me, personally, I use Elance, so if there are any disputes they can be handled by the independent third party. In my experience, artists are happy to send a snippet, or a low quality version of the piece of 'art' to prove that it's ready, and then send the final copy once payment has been complete.

I'm very wary of hiring people who, for example, create an account to post a single advert in the forum, without being a member of the community at all. For all I know, their showcase is stuff they've picked up from a Google images search!

Fortunately, I've never personally been stung, but that probably because I'm bordering on paranoid. I have to be; I work with tight budgets and if I get screwed over then my project misses out!

 

[Burned Out Gamer]

I didn't know that. They refunded a digital purchase for me once. Which was also the only refund I ever committed through a complaint. Guess I got lucky then .

Not to get off topic, but I think this is fairly important in the context of what's being discussed: I think you did indeed get very lucky as they will instantly drop any claims where non-physical items are mentioned (or "service" etc. selected at the time of payment). In all fairness to them this is buried somewhere in their TOS. Even their standard protection for physical items is unscrupulous and seems to solely depend on whether or not they can recoup from the other party involved (if they even take it that far, which is assuming a lot of them IMO). I'm glad you were able to get a refund.

 

[_Shadow_]

Here goes my opinion:

We have a system of two people.

They don't know each other.

They know nothing.

Giving work front, before getting paid is a mistake.

Giving all the money front before getting the work is also a mistake.

Doing a contract (best an official contract with lawyer assistance, if it involves a lot of money or work) is the best approach.

But let's not take it on that level.

Let's talk about an Internet based stranger to stranger issue.

Best practice is taking a look on what the client is asking for.

Is it music?

Is it a picture?

Is it a sprite sheet?

Is it a script? ( I love this one )

Can you make a demo out of it that will not be the final product, not being afraid of being stolen?

Music: Using beeping or hissing you can.

Picture: Using Colored waterrmarking makes it almost impossible someone to steal your work. Photographers do such a thing.

Script: Well... demo videos do the trick. If they want the code, they will have to pay you FIRST. You must have in public display a simple piece of

code with a sample of documentation you do on your project in order to have an idea what they will take.

Finally:

Best practice in my opinion for a first contract is 25% of the cash go front.

Then if possible, 25% of the work is delivered.

If the customer is not satisfied again, the artist keeps high reputation by sending the money back.

If everything goes nice:

Another 25% Goes on and another 25% is delivered that way.

And it goes that way.

After 5 successful collaborations, you can do a 50 / 50 two step negotiation (you trust each other more)

Each person knows each other more. They know they can trust each other for SMALL projects.

After 10 successful total collaborations, well, even if you get ripped off once, it's ok really cause you got money/ art lots of times.

But nobody would really betray such a relationship.

Artists wanna get paid, customers always need more and more art.

JUST REMEMBER. NOT MUCH WORK, NOT MUCH CASH PROJECTS.

You know that person will not betray you on small projects, but you know nothing about that person's behaviour on big projects.

Never make conclusions based on assumptions.

Better do contracts on BIG projects.

So... what if you can't split the work in 4 parts?

Well... you should accept works that can be split that way.

For instance:

4 songs

16 sprites with portraits

A script that does 12 things (start making it doing three of them)

You explain the rules of negotiation.

Money goes first always.

ALWAYS.

It is the opposite of a job. Always.

Then goes the product, and the license.

In any case copyright your work FIRST.

And NEVER EVER rip off a customer. If that happens even once you are doomed.

 

[phoenix_rossy]

That was very poetic

 

[whitesphere]

I've never worked on a contract basis, but if I did, it would depend on the amount of work.  Certainly for anything which takes more than a day of labor would be worth going through purchasing a boilerplate contract which is legal for your country/state, filling in the appropriate names and descriptions.  At least that gives easier legal recourse if either party tries to break the deal.

Once that's done, I think a fair system would be:  Pay up front for a short job, and pay in installments for a larger one.  Building contractors often use a 33/33/33 system (with the remaining 1% added to the last payment), since they need to pay for supplies and such before even starting the job.  So that would probably work well for larger projects.

The problem is assessing the quality of the work beforehand.  I agree with other posters that giving samples (video demos for scripts, watermarked pictures or song samples) is a good idea.  It's crucial to really have a dialogue with the customer to make sure the customer understands exactly what s/he's requesting and you understand exactly what you're providing.  Otherwise you might produce amazing work that isn't at all what the customer really wanted, because the requirements weren't clear to both parties. 

I like the Russian proverb when it comes to business deals:  Trust but verify. 

 

[Caitlin]

If you know the person to be trustworthy, you could do a product first, work out payment later, but if you're uncertain, you might ask for a down payment.  I guess it all depends on how much you trust the person.

 

[nio kasgami]

I usually show a screenshot of the final product  so they can send me the money (well this seem the most apropriate way for someone who do draw xD)

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

For me, the client gets a preview of what work I can do.  Once it's ready, then money or payment first. ALWAYS.  THEN, product. But, I'd set up a general contract that would protect both the buyer AND me, so neither party can back out. If I were to stiff them, believe you me they'd spread the word.  Same with them. If they, as a customer stiffed me, I'd spread the word about them. "Don't do work for so and so. They're not honest!"

That's a heavy price to pay on both ends.

But this is just me.