Paying for RPG Maker games

[Prescott]

has perfect or near perfect grammar

This is something I'm super anal about too! I absolutely HATE it when games have problems with their grammar. I actually translated a project once from broken English to English xD Your Star if you are curious.

My dad's major was English, and my mom was a reading teacher for about 6 years, so I've always had good influences I suppose xD I proofread things that I write multiple times to make sure they don't have any spelling/grammar issues.

My feeling is that you should price it as LOW as you can, or at least launch with a huge discount, for a first game. That builds popularity for you as a brand, then future games can be priced higher.

That is what one of the guy's I am working on this game with said. Have it as a low price first to see how well it does and bump it up a little bit if it sells a lot, so that the early adopters feel good about spending less money on it. Only issue is, I wouldn't want to make it unfair to people who were maybe waiting for reviews to come in for the game to buy it, and they lose a few dollars because of it.

I was thinking more along the lines of releasing a substantial demo (like a 4 or 5 hour one, considering we want the game to be 40+ hours), and seeing what people say about that demo alone and price it based on that.

Which way do you guys think would be more effective as a sort of "hype-building" tool. Maybe both are viable options to use for one project, too.

RMXP's RTP can do a lot wonder with just simple edits. They are just simply too good and clearly not milked by so many projects like VXA's ones. Beware of using MV's RTP tho, since MV is already popular and hundreds of other projects are already using MV's default RTP in their projects.

Isn't Ocedic made the same encryption system for RMVXA game. It's very basic and easily breakable, but that will protect your audio files from average users.

We have decided to use MV styled graphics in the game, so ripping them from XP simply wouldn't work, unfortunately. We are going to be doing many edits of the default graphics though, and will be making quite a bit of our own. We don't want the RTP to hold us back, but on the other hand, if pieces from the RTP look accurate to what we are trying to represent, we won't hesitate to use those graphics. We do want all of our characters/enemies to be custom though (whether that's making them in the generator and editing them or making them by hand), and all of our animations are going to be custom made, although they will still use the default sprites. In other words, custom animations, same graphics.

I don't care too much for encrypting things like crazy, because if people want to, they will always find a way to crack them. I do however want at least simple encryption so that players can't just easily take it, they will at least have to do a google search for "how to unencrypt rggsad files" or something similar. Most users don't even know what that means, quite a few are too lazy, and a lot of them don't actually want to unencrypt it anyway.

This comes after the sale in many cases, but realize you have a very brief window to make your 'first impression'. Hit me with your best stuff right out of the gate - somehow show me what makes your game worth sticking around to finish. Draw me into the story, show me your 'unique' gameplay element, let me know what makes your game special. I've got a ton of games I never finished because they failed in this critical regard. Get me sucked in though, and I'll generally stick around to the end unless you seriously drop the ball along the way.

This is a great piece of advice here! We were thinking of doing something along those lines already but weren't too sure we wanted to throw the player into the madness immediately. If done right though, it could definitely be a way to lure them in.

If I don't like the first episode of a TV show, I won't continue watching it (which is why I don't watch Walking Dead) but stuff like Last Man On Earth, Psych, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul... those really hook you from the get-go. Thanks for that advice

 

[Zabu]

I always thought that you can make the game for free, but have few options like "Donate" or "Exclusive Bonus) for 4.99$.

In this way, the game still be free for those who don't want to pay, and few person will love the game and donate for the few bonus and it will be directly in your pocket!

 

[bgillisp]

@Zabu: The problem with that is, you might want to ask those who have gone that route how many donations they have ever received. I think one of our best scripters did that, and got, over the course of a year...

1

Seriously. 1 donation. Most people if they see a game is free with donations optional never send a single dime in, even for a good quality product.

 

[Zabu]

@Zabu: The problem with that is, you might want to ask those who have gone that route how many donations they have ever received. I think one of our best scripters did that, and got, over the course of a year...

1

Seriously. 1 donation. Most people if they see a game is free with donations optional never send a single dime in, even for a good quality product.

If you made it with few bonus, i think it can work. For example, if you launch your game on steam, you make card available for those who paid the dlc only (and it will work i guarantee it ahah!) but yeah, you're alright with scripts and the stinginess of the humanity. After, i didn't answer in all the question, yeah, i can buy a RM game if i find he is really cool, for example, i paid To The Moon and i'm planning to pay Always Sometimes Monster, after, i don't know a lot of game made with RM.

 

[bgillisp]

@Zabu: Ha! Don't give AAA companies new ideas. Else we just might see Final Fantasy 17 sell for $59.99, but the trading cards (or achievements for the non-PC's) cost $10 more.

I also left out my answer to the OP too. I've had no problem paying $19.99 for a game that looks very well done. I tried out Tale of a Common Man at that price, and didn't regret it. If the game looks like it might not be as good, I'll usually wait for a sale to lower it to the $5 - $10 range. If the game looks like a total train wreck I might still get it, at the $0.50 - $2.50 range, just to see how bad it really is. And, I actually did do with a couple of RPGMaker games in the last couple of Steam sales (and they were just as bad as I predicted). But then again, I bought Duke Nukem Forever at $2.99 just to see how bad it really was, so maybe I'm weird.

 

[Zabu]

@bgillisp This idea work only for the F2P don't worry bro'!

 

[AlecMachet]

@Zabu: The problem with that is, you might want to ask those who have gone that route how many donations they have ever received. I think one of our best scripters did that, and got, over the course of a year...

1

Seriously. 1 donation. Most people if they see a game is free with donations optional never send a single dime in, even for a good quality product.

It really depends on the person, the project, the means of donation, and the incentives. There is a free RPG Maker game I play that is being released in monthly installments. The developer has a ******* page for the project which currently has 363 patrons paying a total of $2,443.51 a month. Their benefit is mostly getting updates a week early. She doesn't seem to be the only person developing games in her genre with ******* support.

As to the main topic, my favorite game I've played this year (although it came out last year technically), was LISA: The Painful. I paid $17 for the game, it's expansion, and the soundtrack+art goodies, and played through twice for about 30 quality hours of gameplay. I do not think I would have liked it as much if they had padded it out with lots of random encounters or unnecessarily large areas, so I definitely wouldn't say I need 20 hours/playthrough to consider it a "complete" game. I DEFINITELY wouldn't say "it's not worth more than $5 if it's less than 70 hours" like someone else said. That's bonkers. Even when I was younger and could only afford one $50 game every once in a while, I wouldn't balk at a 40 hour RPG or an 10 hour shooter. Hell, I just bought Undertale for full price and I understand it's ~5-8 hours and I'm happy with that.

 

[Ellie Jane]

An alternative to donations is to go the Humble Bundle way and have the user decide how much they want to pay. I don't know anyone who has implemented that though to know if it works.

 

[jwideman]

The "pay what you want" model works, but only if people are already willing to pay a lot for what you put out and eagerly anticipate your next project.

 

[c0sa]

If it's a really, reaaaally good game with an amazing story and really nice and original graphics, $30 at most. Don't think I'm a cheap ass! It's just that in my country $30 is a lot of money...

 

[Kyuukon]

For a good 6-8 hours adventure game with good story, character development and graphics (even if not custom). I'd say $20, maybe a bit more.

But yee, RM game above $30 is kinda a no...

 

[Tome571]

Not to twist on the OP, but to help narrow it down -
 
What do you expect from a game that is $0 - $5?
 
Gameplay time -
Story - Common/Uncommon/Recycled
 
RTP or upgraded:
Graphics -
Music -
Combat system -
 
From $5 - $10?

Gameplay time -
Story - Common/Uncommon/Recycled

RTP or upgraded:
Graphics -
Music -
Combat system -

From $10 - $20?

Gameplay time -
Story - Common/Uncommon/Recycled

RTP or upgraded:
Graphics -
Music -
Combat system -

This is a cool idea to see different user expectations, especially from those within the community. Sorry if I overstepped on OP, just trying to clarify the original idea a little more.

 

[Soryn]

These games aren't quite RPG Maker (unless some features I don't know about exist) but they LOOK and feel like RPG Maker games... Do a search for Kemco Games. They have a fairly cornered market on RM style games for mobile platforms and I think they even have 1 or 2 releases for windows. Check the prices for their games. Most people wait for the "sale" price to purchase which they always put a game on sale when it is 1st released and leave it for a month or so. Then put it up. Completely not worth it at full price for any of their games IMO. Also, they have "points" that you can earn slowly in their games or through IAP which are generally stat boosters, high end accessories and sometimes optional bonus dungeons. I really like how they handle that.

That being said, when the games are on sale, I usually jump on them. I have an android tv box which has controller support so the games are great on the big screen. But the primary draw and reason I was willing to buy the games is because they are on mobile. Good RPGs are hard to come by on mobile unless they are either extremely expensive and/or are remakes/ports of old games.

Now that MV has mobile compatibility, I would be more inclined to play RPG Maker type games on my phone or iPad than I would on PC. I think it's the same for a lot of people to be honest. You might get some money on PC, but I think the real money will be from mobile with a low price or even free but with IAP. The bonus content or items that alleviate some grinding (which most RPGs have at least a little of) will draw players in. You just have to find a balance so that the game isn't overly hard without IAP but at the same time not overly easy with it.

When prices for things are .99 or lower, a lot of people don't mind forking over their money. After all, what's .99? hardly worth noticing... But when you see games with IAP at $50-$100 I just shake my head and laugh. Sure put it there as an option because you might get some rich player who either just doesn't care or doesn't know any better, but I wouldn't bank on that happening.

Also I should note that most of those Kemco games are 20 hours at most with many being closer to 10-15. I would be willing to pay to have RPG Maker games on mobile and I think a lot of other people would too. Most however, won't be on mobile due to google dev account needing $100 upfront for an account and Apple needing $100 per year. Gotta spend money to make money on mobile.

 

[Prescott]

Thanks for all of your suggestions and comments, guys! So far, it looks like we are going to make the PC version $5 and the Mobile version $2. Not because we think the game will be a "five dollar game" but because this is our first game, and we want our players to be extremely satisfied for what they payed for the game.

We do plan on having full voice acting (with the option to turn it off), text translations from English into French, German, and Spanish, and an entire custom soundtrack (including sound effects), as some of our most notable features. We want to make the game around 40 hours with the main story and side quests, and hope to work in a New Game+ feature and a game completion leaderboard (for instance, ever time you beat the game, +1 is added to your score on the leaderboard). Hopefully these features will make $5 go an extremely long way.

We don't want to do IAP because we feel they take away from the experience of the game, and if your game was any good in the first place (in terms of balance, content, etc), it wouldn't need them. But that's just our opinion.

 

[arcthemonkey]

I've seen a few people trying to sell their RPG Maker games for $20-$30, and I have to admit that two things go through my mind when I see that, regardless of the game:

#1: Does anyone really pay that much for RPG Maker games?

#2: What would it take for me to pay that much?

I mean, seriously, seeing $20 on an RPG Maker game forces me to think about this every time.

The fact is, if I ever sold a game I made in RPG Maker, I would have to beconfident that it is actually a good, unique game, and that it is something I could advertise in a way that would appeal to people enough to buy it. Unless I am putting something out there with 100% original graphics, I couldn't imagine selling it for more than $.99 or $2. If it had all custom graphics and was a great game, then I'd consider $5.

The only way I could ever - ever imagine selling an RPG Maker game for more than $5, much less $10, is if my previous games had a large audience, and my current game was truly something top-notch and special. $15 feels inconcievable, and I don't think I would ever pay that much for an RPG Maker game.

So yeah, I'd say $10 is the absolute max in my mind.

 

[JosephSeraph]

...Then what's a $20 game for you? And a $40? And a $60? What's the difference between The Sacred Tears and FF6? (this is a serious question)

 

[bgillisp]

@Arcthemonkety: Then what games do you pay $20 for? $30? Or do you ever pay that much? I've played some RPGMaker games that I did pay $20 for, and they were worth it. Likewise, I've paid $2.99 for a couple RPGMaker games that weren't even worth that much due to how bad the game is. It all depends on the game.

 

[arcthemonkey]

...Then what's a $20 game for you? And a $40? And a $60? What's the difference between The Sacred Tears and FF6? (this is a serious question)

I think I have a response that addresses both you and bgillisp:

The difference? Final Fantasy 6 was made by a staff of over 30 people, most of whom I'm sure were working at least full-time on the game for most of its development cycle of a year. We're talking upwards of 400,000 man-hours. They coded the game, made all the resources from scratch, and produced what is arguably one of the most loved, best RPGs of all time. It retailed for $80 at a time when the series it belonged to was already popular enough to have sold millions of copies each. At a time when it had unprecedented graphics, a story that many consider to still be unmatched, and fantastic, bar-setting gameplay.

I love RPG Maker. I really do. But no RPG Maker game is going to be that. There are very, very good RPG Maker games out there, but the scale of effort and their place in the market are just not comparable. This doesn't mean someone couldn't make an RPG Maker game that was better than Final Fantasy 6, even - but it wouldn't be worth $80 in 2015 money.

The indie game market is tough, like bgillisp implied, but that is just a fact of the market that we can't hand-wave away. People don't want to pay full-price for these games, and the reason isn't entirely because they suspect they won't be as good. We now live in a world where Final Fantasy 13, which had a staff of ~200 people, and cost $65 million to make. It sold almost 7 million copies (even though it's trendy to talk about how much people hated it), and a bulk of those sales were when it was priced at $60.

It would be great if RPG Maker games would pull those kinds of numbers, but I simply can't fathom how someone could argue that, in today's market, an RPG Maker game could be worth anywhere near that kind of money. The amount of time and money invested into them isn't even on the same planet. The reason games can even cost $60 today is because more people are buying them. The fact that more people are buying means they can invest more money into them and still recoup that cost. We pay $60 because that's what we have to pay for modern games in order for them to be profitable, and we are able to rationalize that price because we know that these games were made over years (FF13 was in development for ~5 years, by hundreds of people, and cost millions to produce.

But I look at a $20 RPG Maker game, and I know from experience that it was probably made by 4-10 people working mostly in their spare time over the course of a year or two... or less. Often much less. To the Moon is, as far as I know, the most famous/popular RPG Maker game ever, and it was pumped out by a team of 4. I haven't played it, but I don't care if it's one of the best damn RPGs ever made... It simply isn't worth $60. Or $20. The $10 it's priced at is a stretch, in my opinion.

I understand that people want to make money, especially if they are putting money in to their games, but it will never be justifiable to price these games anywhere near what you would pay for a modern game, and I know the general market agrees with me. That's kind of my point.

There isn't a market for expensive RPG Maker games. If you are putting thousands of dollars of contracted music or what have you, you will probably not recoup that cost, and if making a profit on a game you spent a crap load of money on is something you care about, then RPG Maker probably isn't the best platform for you.

It's tough to make money in indie dev, no matter how you look at it. The people who do turn big profits are mostly the people who get lucky and make a name for themselves.

I pay full price for a ton of games. I plopped down $60 for Fallout 4. And again, I'm not saying some RPG Maker game out there isn't the best RPG ever made, and makes Fallout 4 look tragically stupid in the story department, but a huge chunk of what I'm paying for with Fallout 4 is the amount of money it took to produce - and I want big budget games like this continue coming out, that's the price I have to pay.

I don't like the idea of most people selling RPG Maker games. I don't think that for 99% of people who even get to that point that there is a lucrative end-game there. I, for one, would rather have my game be free to make it available to a larger audience. I don't have any good RPG Maker game sales figured, but I am highly suspicious that there isn't a single RPG Maker game out there priced at over $10 that has sold even close to 1000 copies (and probably very, very few priced less, even). I'd be surprised if they sold 100. The market just wouldn't allow it. If I am wrong, I would love to see examples. It looks like a majority of them out there, though, are priced in that sub-$5 range, which I think is fair and appropriate. I think that is another strong point to make here - a vast majority of commercial RPG Maker games are $0-$10, and this includes many of the premium games.

So yeah, I could be convinced to shell out $10 for an A+ RPG Maker game because I like to support small indie devs, but anything beyond that and I'm donating to charity, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[10kk]

After reading some other posts, here's some more of my thoughts:

1) Grammar - I will not play a new game with bad grammar or spelling. OTOH, for full disclosure, I'm very happy that the DS 're-release' of Dragon Warrior (DQ) IV included all the original grammar mistakes. But that was a specific exception, invoking nostalgia glasses for a time long gone... I also pay attention to fonts and layout issues. I don't want to see dialog screens with one word 'orphans', as an example. Incidentally, this is where 'word-wrap' is a Bad Thing because it can lead to exactly that situation. Much better to stick with WYSIWYG and make sure the layout is pleasing to the eye.

2) Length - This is one I'm going to run up against in my own project but I like long RPG's. I won't be buying Beyond: Two Souls or other games of that ilk anytime soon. I would say I expect at least 20 hours for a "full" game. If a game is honest about its length, I'd consider shorter (especially in the <$5 market). I don't want to feel the game was chopped up to milk more cash (a la what BFG did to Syberia).

Combining this with the size limitations for mobile ports and I'm going to be using assets VERY carefully. In a way that's a real throwback to the 16 bit era games where every inn looked exactly the same, etc...  Big departure from my first Dammerung demo where I tried to vary the scenery as much as possible.

3) Assets - I'm not a stickler for 'original' since I haven't played that many 'RTP' games to begin with, but they have to look and sound good. Original but crappy isn't going to win you many customers. I'm a bit sensitive to audio, even in mods, and expect high quality sound. 'Artifacts' in sound loops and things like that are an instant buzz-kill for me.

4) This comes after the sale in many cases, but realize you have a very brief window to make your 'first impression'. Hit me with your best stuff right out of the gate - somehow show me what makes your game worth sticking around to finish. Draw me into the story, show me your 'unique' gameplay element, let me know what makes your game special. I've got a ton of games I never finished because they failed in this critical regard. Get me sucked in though, and I'll generally stick around to the end unless you seriously drop the ball along the way.

I'm SO with you on the audio part. an artifact/stutter in a loop ruins games for me. 

 

[Prescott]

Very interesting points.

See, the way we are doing it is very, home grown I guess. We aren't really "hiring" anyone because we know enough people to do it for free. After that, we are just taking a percentage of the sales every $100 we make (that's 20-25 games sold), and divvying it up between the people who worked on it (which so far is 6 total, including voice actors, obviously we will have more soon). So we aren't spending a whole lot of money on it, to make a profit, but instead putting a lot of work in it to make a profit.

I am the head developer of the game, and I only work 9 hours a week so I am able to spend a lot of time on it. I probably spend around 4 hours a day, sometimes more, sometimes less, working on the game. Around 25 hours a week, so not bad. That number will jump a lot as soon as we start doing voice acting, as I'm also the head audio guy, so I'll be recording, editing, all that stuff basically all week. I have a lot of spare time, which I'm super thankful for!

I do like the idea of putting it on sale when it first comes out. The lead story writer was saying it would make early adopters feel good that they paid for it earlier and got a good game from it for less money than the rest of the people after the hype had started. Considering we even get "hype" haha.

EDIT: I'd like to mention that we are not doing this to make a profit. We are doing it to make a great game that we want to make. Getting sales and seeing some money flow in is just a cool benefit, no matter how big or small that might be.

Someone also mentioned the fact that you don't even have to tell people it's an RPG Maker game. Sure people who have worked with it or played similar games will know easily, but people that haven't will assume it's just an RPG and won't nitpick with it for the sole purpose of it being an RM game.