Paying for RPG Maker games

metronome

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Not to twist on the OP, but to help narrow it down -

What do you expect from a game that is $0 - $5?

Gameplay time -

Story - Common/Uncommon/Recycled

RTP or upgraded:

Graphics -

Music -

Combat system -

From $5 - $10?

Gameplay time -

Story - Common/Uncommon/Recycled

RTP or upgraded:

Graphics -

Music -

Combat system -

From $10 - $20?

Gameplay time -

Story - Common/Uncommon/Recycled

RTP or upgraded:

Graphics -

Music -

Combat system -

This is a cool idea to see different user expectations, especially from those within the community. Sorry if I overstepped on OP, just trying to clarify the original idea a little more.
Man...these questions are good.

0$ Whatever, seriously

0$ < X < 5$

Gameplay time - err....5-9 hours?

Story - as long as it is good......

RTP or upgraded: don't have to be original, but at least 75% of the game must not be in RTP I guess....

Graphics - read above.

Music - I don't care.

Combat system - I don't care.

5$ <= X < 10$

Gameplay time - 10 - 20hours

Story - as long as it is good and no recycle please.

RTP or upgraded: don't have to be original, but at least no RTP please.

Graphics - read above, after that make sure the graphic is at least stylish. Stylish doesn't mean good.

Music - I don't care.

Combat system - I don't care.

10$ <= X < 20$

Gameplay time - 20+ hours

Story - It needs to be something. Something. (Even if it is weird.)

RTP or upgraded: Well....I am expecting real-original stuffs without stock licensed resource at all for sure....

Music - 2 memorable songs.

Combat system - well...........they must at least move.....not just some kind of standing party......

20$ and up.

Wow. you have to be really really good! I am expecting you to be the next suikoden 1/2, corpse party, FF6, chrono trigger, dragon quest, or whatever......

10 USD will get you at least your dinner and lunch covered in my country. And if you a move a bit further from the capital city, 10$ will get you really really ....far, like....hmmm.....10 dinners/lunches?
 

Prescott

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So what would you say to some stylistically edited RTP and some custom, 40+ hours, complete custom soundtrack, complete voice acting, and a sideview ATB system?
 

bgillisp

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One thing you do need to realize though is the developer needs to recoup costs. The $5 price point a lot of you want doesn't pay for a custom soundtrack, so hope you like the RTP music if that's the price you'll pay, as composers charge about $40 - $100 per minute of music they make.
 
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Matseb2611

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@ Arcthemonkey: I can see what you're saying and I do agree to a degree. RM games shouldn't be priced anywhere near the same as triple A games or even high-end indies, since the production costs, development time, manpower, and of course the market are not comparable.

But if numbers is all we're taking into account here, then you'd set the price that works best to maximize the revenue gained. I tend to price my commercial RM games at $10 and it works. Sure, it sells way better when it's on a discount, but the fact there are people willing to pay $10 is good enough for me. I know Aldorlea Games for example sells theirs for more than that and they've been quite successful for years now, so if people are willing to pay $20 for their games, then this business model works for them.

@ Prescott: Just be careful not to underprice your game too much. Though $5 is a good price for RM games, if you're going for full custom graphics, soundtrack, and over 40 hours of gameplay, you might find yourself incurring some very serious costs, and $5 per sale might not be enough to break even. Custom content is very pricey. If I was to make a suggestion it's to not make your first game fully custom, or 40 hours long for that matter. Keep it to more modest goals. It would make development the first time round a lot more manageable.
 

Indinera

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I don't have any good RPG Maker game sales figured, but I am highly suspicious that there isn't a single RPG Maker game out there priced at over $10 that has sold even close to 1000 copies (and probably very, very few priced less, even). I'd be surprised if they sold 100. The market just wouldn't allow it. If I am wrong, I would love to see examples.
You wouldn't say that if, indeed, you had sales figures.

It looks like a majority of them out there, though, are priced in that sub-$5 range, which I think is fair and appropriate. I think that is another strong point to make here - a vast majority of commercial RPG Maker games are $0-$10, and this includes many of the premium games.
I don't know if the "majority" (ie more than 50%) of them are priced below $5 (priced where, anyway? There are several selling venues) but a good number of RM games are priced more than that, and another pretty significant number of them is above $10.
 

bgillisp

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@matseb2611: That is a tough calculation, sure. I've been thinking of using the same price point you used for atonement or thereabouts myself, but that's something I'll debate when it is done.

@indinera: Someone with more real figures here! The only figures I'd seen was one steam developer who released his sales numbers, and it was 1077 copies sold (and I think that was a $14.99 game on steam too). But somehow I'm not surprised games like Millennium sells more than that :)

BTW, I did the math on what an inflation adjusted ff6 should be selling for...$74.99. And that is if the release price was $39.99 (which is a number I didn't have, so if it released for $49.99, then it should be higher). Just something to think about before we bring ff6 into the mix, as this means even those AAA games are lowballing their price. Might explain why many of them tend to go bankrupt after 2 - 4 years.
 
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Indinera

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Someone with more real figures here! 
Yup. I can confirm the paragraph I quoted is VERY far off the mark. ;)

it was 1077 copies sold
 

Yup. Another case of > $10 and > 1000 sales.  :)  

 But somehow I'm not surprised games like Millennium sells more than that
It was a satisfying release.   :)
 
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metronome

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So what would you say to some stylistically edited RTP and some custom, 40+ hours, complete custom soundtrack, complete voice acting, and a sideview ATB system?
I am NOT everybody, but when I see this sentence, this is how it goes in my head, as a buyer.

1. 40+ hours and 20+ hours falls into same category here. So....maximum 19 USD (not 20 or 19.99).

2. Complete custom soundtrack doesn't tell anything, you should show me trailer. (1 minute is okay).

3. Complete voice acting matters, but I will want to hear how they sound first (again, trailer please.)

4. Sideview ATB is okay......but....are they moving? (etc etc)

5. Stylistically edited RTP falls into 9 USD and below in my category.

Mathematically speaking, 6 USD will be the most I am willing to spend on your game if that sentence is all the info I could get.

Marketing and publishing efforts matter a lot. I could spend a maximum of either 6 USD or 19 USD based on how well those efforts go....

If you want to sell more than 19 USD, marketing and publishing efforts will not be the only things you gonna have to worry about IF I am your only customer lol

Again, remember, I am not everybody. I am coming from developed country, soo.....there you go.

I hope others will help you in your survey. See if they are willing to answer you these question(s)~~

OR you could show us some demos (10-15 minutes demos are okay too), and I think people will be able to tell you more on how much you should price your game if you show them some demos....

Good luck.
 
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JosephSeraph

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Interesting points you brought there! But I can see your vision of RPG Maker as a tool is still very limited, despite working with the software daily. There are plenty of games with very large production values and not only that, it is a full possibility! Production values aren't directed related to 'how many dollars the developer has spent'.

For instance, I'm an artist. When I develop a game, I spend like 10 hours per day on it. Next year I'm gonna start working on a 50+ hour RPG with fully custom everything -- not for the sake of being custom, but to reach my artistic view as the "custom" is deeply engrained into the game experience. Even though I am a sole artist working on a game, that's HUGE production value. If you hired me to do 1000 hours of artwork, that would cost you 20000, at the moment. My hourly rate is $20. Now, my composer charges $100/min. Now you see how high the production value from an RM game can get if you put value into non directly monetarily charged things. I would expect to charge my game about $20, maybe. Depends on a lot of factors that would happen through development time but if the game manages to reach my vision, $20 is the bare minimum -- for 50+ hours of non linear gameplay, 10+ worlds to explore, 20+ playable characters, etc.

(and no i'm not crazy. I know how to pull it off, given time and good planning.)
 

Lux Fortuna

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For some reason I am always making comparisons... So when browsing steam and I see a $20 RPGM game I compare the potential entertainment value to something else I play. For example, H1Z1 is an FPS with a well-received PvP game-mode. I've probably put 2,000 hours into it. I don't think there's a single-purchase RPG game I'd put 2,000 hours into, let alone fully enjoy the time involved.

So for me there's a glass ceiling when it comes to RPG maker games and I can't see myself ever spending more than $10 ever. Compared to all the free-to-play amazing games out there (like Guild Wars 2), I just can't see buying RPG Maker games for more than $10 and only for a special novelty purchase. That isn't to minimize the amount of time, effort, and resources that went into making the game. In my head, if a game is worth its salt then it will reach a wider audience and the developer will profit. If it's not up to snuff, it wouldn't have sold well for more than $10 anyway.

So, while I said my cap for RPG Maker games is $10 max (and that would be for the best 1% I'd say the vast majority would be $1 or less before I'd even consider purchasing it), it is possible that I would pay more. If there was an RPG Maker game that was online, had voice communication, guild systems, pvp game modes, active updates (monthly?), fully customizable characters, new monthly quests, leaderboards, strong trading system, strong co-op mode, extremely difficult end-game content, incentives to continue farming/playing the game after beating the primary story, a stable economy, and a large player population, I'd consider a one-time ~$60'ish purchase or a ~$5 monthly subscription to play.
 
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Matseb2611

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I personally don't think that game price should increase directly proportional to the amount of content, and here are my reasons:

1. Quantity of content does not say whether it's good content or not. To me a 5 hour game with quality gameplay is worth more than a 30 hour grindfest for example.

2. Every player progresses through the game at a very different pace. Some might spend more time exploring, others won't. Some might spend more time managing their equipment or attributes, or even grinding just because they want to.

3. What would you even include in such a calculation? If the game is non-linear for example or has branching story paths, and let's say following just one path will get you 5 hours of gameplay, but if you were to try out them all, you'd get 15 hours, how would you put a value on that?

4. What if the game has bonus content in addition to the main story, such as boss rush mode, arena battles, new game+, etc? Where does that fit into the calculation? Some players might spend 100s of hours on these, whilst others will ignore them entirely.

Sure, more content would generally up the price, but it shouldn't, in my opinion, be directly proportional. Just because I spent 20 hours on one game and 5 hours on another does not necessarily mean I enjoyed the 20 hour game more.
 

JosephSeraph

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Your comment brings a light on an odd duality on RPG Maker games. They all fall under the "genre" of RPG Maker games (wanting or not it IS treated as such by many, including the steam library itself) while people's expectations regarding them vary more and more. I personally would never ever even look at an rpg maker game "that was online, had voice communication, guild systems, pvp game modes, active updates (monthly?), fully customizable characters, new monthly quests, leaderboards, strong trading system, strong co-op mode, extremely difficult end-game content, incentives to continue farming/playing the game after beating the primary story, a stable economy, and a large player population" simply because that isn't what i look on rpg maker games. (and imho, it shouldn't be for anyone) Well, to be honest I'd check it out as a developer due to my curiosity on how such a complex system was achieved but... That's 120% not what I want to play nor what I want to make. Now, comparing the hour depth of an offline rpg to that of an mmo is rather unfair. I play League of Legends -- technically unlimited hours of fun for 100% free. That doesn't stop me from buying other games.

I know many RPG Maker games clock much higher than Parasite Eve, Final Fantasy X, etc... (I paid a full 200 reais for my copy of FFX HD, which is around 60 dollars) and that's a much fairer comparison.
 

bgillisp

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Matesb2611 sums up why play time =/= price. If we only focused on playtime, then we should do the following:

1: Make all our maps wide open

2: Random fights every 2 - 3 steps.

Sound fun? No? But my playtime is high!

Also, I have never liked the comparison with those free to play games. Most are major grindfests, and not my idea of fun. If that is what you like, go for it, but most of us don't like that and want more to our games, hence why not everyone only plays the free to play games.
 
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Indinera

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Matesb2611 sums up why play time =/= price. If we only focused on playtime, then we should do the following:

1: Make all our maps wide open

2: Random fights every 2 - 3 steps.

Sound fun? No? But my playtime is high!

Also, I have never liked the comparison with those free to play games. Most are major grindfests, and not my idea of fun. If that is what you like, go for it, but most of us don't like that and more to our games, hence why not everyone only plays the free to play games.
You can't do that, because you might fool your players once, you won't be able to retain them for the future games you make.
 

bgillisp

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@Indinera: Yes, there is that factor too as well.
 

JosephSeraph

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You can't do that, because you might fool your players once, you won't be able to retain them for the future games you make.
Of course that was an exagerated example. but there ARE lots of subtler ways of increasing playtime without adding depth to the game.

Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow comes to mind, for instance. And these things just shallow out a game. I'd much rather have a solid and depthful experience such as Chrono Trigger or Parasite Eve than something spaced with wide lengths of shallow playtime extensions such as DoS.

Your player's time is precious. Make sure to have the perfect pacing and depth.
 

jwideman

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A good point has been brought up. Pricing your games TOO low can be just as bad as too high, since you'll reach market saturation without making a profit or even breaking even. That's why I said to price it as low as you CAN. That doesn't mean $1. Research the market and price your game competitively with similar products. If you don't research or understand the market for your game, then success is not for you.
 

arcthemonkey

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I want to start out by saying that I am glad my suspicion that there were no >$10 RPG Maker games that had sold more than 1000 copies was incorrect. That's great. But I am still not convinced it's anything but an outlier, and that the vast majority of even very good RPG Maker games fall within a curve of percieved value (by the general consumer) that is less than $10. Haha, of course, if I was going to find a community that had people for whom this wasn't true, then this would be the one!

Seriously, though. That's great. Indinera, I'm actually quite familiar with your body of work - as are a lot of people. But Something tells me your didn't price your first game at $20 to go on and sell 1000+ copies. I have little doubt that a large part of your success is brand recognition, essentially. I hinted at that in my previous post - a huge part of what allows people to price their games at these higher price points is that people can say, "Oh hey, I've heard of Squaresoft and this fancy-schmancy Final Fantasy series. I've heard good things, in fact. That homeless guy publicly *********ing outside of Safeway was ranting about it so enthusiastically! I should check it out!" There are a small number of developers in this community who have made a name for themselves and seen mainstream success and can get away with those prices, but for a vast majority of the people here that is an ambitious, but far-off goal. One most aren't likely to achieve. Congratulations on that, again, I'm glad I could be proven wrong - but, no offense man, I still won't pay that much.

The other example here of the guy who sold 1077 copies of his $20 game, I've got to say... If I had a game that I thought was worth $20 and it only sold 1077 copies I would be depressed as hell. I mean yeah, sweet, $20,000 bucks. But I produced this great game and only 1077 played it?! How many would have played it if it was $10? $5? If I was just concerned about turning a little profit, and $20,000 was a profit for my project (I have no idea why people are paying so much for music, btw, but maybe I'm lucky in that I am close friends with multiple musicians). For me, and I think most of us, this is primarily a hobby in which I am making games that I want people to play. $20,000 isn't worth it if I could have had a much larger audience and still, potentially, made just as much money - if not more.

Can any of you really disagree that not many people are going to shell out $20 for a first time RPG Maker release from someone they've never heard of? Unless it is truly extraordinary?

Also, as for adjusting the price of FF6 when it first retailed to 2015 dollars... The original MSRP was actually $79.99, which inflates to just over $120. But like I said, when it hit the market it was a sequel in a series that had already sold millions, and it was the best looking RPG ever produced at that point. Comparing it to an RPG Maker game is like comparing a Tesla Model S to someone using a kit to build an all-electric Ford Model T in their garage with some custom milled parts.

I don't know. $5-$10 still feels right. When I mentioned that most of the games I saw were priced in that range, I was referring to steam where I scrolled through the top selling RPG Maker games. Way more than 50% were under ot at $10.
 

JosephSeraph

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Still, Aldorlea for instance also works as a publishing portal -- allowing new devs access to their userbase, and offering that userbase a quality control. New devs don't necessarily have to start from zero with sites such as Aldorlea!
 

Indinera

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@arcthemonkey:

It seems your opinion has changed quite a bit, from "but I am highly suspicious that there isn't a single RPG Maker game out there priced at over $10 that has sold even close to 1000 copies (and probably very, very few priced less, even)" to "If I had a game that I thought was worth $20 and it only sold 1077 copies I would be depressed as hell."

A bit confused there.

I, for one, don't think 1000 sales at $20 is a bad result at all. I strongly suspect tons of indie games have made less.

@JosephSeraph:

On my website I'd recommend the price tag of $20 for a good game.
 

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