Paying for RPG Maker games

[Matseb2611]

Can any of you really disagree that not many people are going to shell out $20 for a first time RPG Maker release from someone they've never heard of? Unless it is truly extraordinary?

I certainly agree with that. In fact I myself won't normally pay $20 for an RM game, but I do realise that I am not a representative of the whole audience and many people are willing to pay $20 for a good RM game. But yeah, you're right, people are more willing to spend more money if they're familiar with the developer and know the developer makes good games. That's what making a name for oneself is all about - making your first game or two very cheap so that many people are able to buy it and you managing to build a fanbase.

I also agree that I too will be disappointed if only 1077 people played my game, but I think this is more to do with us being proud of our creation and wanting more people to experience it than simply earning money. If you earned $20,000 from a game and spent way less than that on the assets for it, then, from a business standpoint, it's a success, but from a creative standpoint you might feel like it was a failure.

 

[arcthemonkey]

@arcthemonkey:

It seems your opinion has changed quite a bit, from "but I am highly suspicious that there isn't a single RPG Maker game out there priced at over $10 that has sold even close to 1000 copies (and probably very, very few priced less, even)" to "If I had a game that I thought was worth $20 and it only sold 1077 copies I would be depressed as hell."

A bit confused there.

I, for one, don't think 1000 sales at $20 is a bad result at all. I strongly suspect tons of indie games have made less.

If you are just doing it for the money, then yes, that's a good result, I suppose, assuming that $20,000 is enough to recoup your expense and your effort in a satisfactory way. That's kind of my point though. If I had to choose between selling 1000 copies for $20 and giving away 10,000 copies, I'd go with 10,000. Like I said, you guys showed me I was wrong and that there are games out there that can sell 1000+ copies at the price point, and that's great, but assuming I only spend 4 hours a day for 6 months and spent no money on the development, then I barely made more hourly than what I make from my career - and only 1000 people played the damn thing.

Remember, if I sell 2000 for $5, I've made the same amount of money, but more people played it.

I also agree that I too will be disappointed if only 1077 people played my game, but I think this is more to do with us being proud of our creation and wanting more people to experience it than simply earning money. If you earned $20,000 from a game and spent way less than that on the assets for it, then, from a business standpoint, it's a success, but from a creative standpoint you might feel like it was a failure.

This x1000.

 

[Indinera]

and only 1000 people played the damn thing.

If you really care about your effort being played, a game that can attract 1,000 legit players at $20 will most likely be played 100x more via... other ways... *whistles*

Remember, if I sell 2000 for $5, I've made the same amount of money, but more people played it.

You've made less actually. You need 4,000.

But you're overlooking something essential here, especially coming from a Steam observer.

You can start at $20 and as the game goes on sale, more people get it at lower price points. It's a win-win situation.

 

[terrorchan]

I am aiming to go commercial with a price tag of around 1.99 and an initial sales discount of .99 most likely


However, I don't want to undersell my game. I'm putting a ton of work in it and I'm planning on buying some custom scripts, character artwork, and sprite animations, so depending on the ending quality, I might bump it up a few dollars.


I couldn't see myself paying anywhere upwards of ten dollars for one, however :/

 

[taarna23]

This whole discussion actually makes me afraid for the future of indie games, in general. The "I won't pay more than $10" attitude does seem to reach beyond RPG Maker, but with it comes shorter games, lower quality and a higher rate of churning out similar things to keep money coming in. If you watch games being produced in general, this is already occurring.

There is something to remember in creation in general:

I can do it good. I can do it fast. I can do it cheap.

Pick two and talk to me.

It seems in games these days, people are expecting all three.

 

[Indinera]

This phenomenon has a name, the "rush to the bottom". Generally not perceived as a good thing... *shrugs*

 

[terrorchan]

One thing I wanted to add was that a lot of people here and other places said they wouldn't pay for a game without 100% custom artwork, which would cost the developer thousands of dollars unless they get really low quality stuff :/ kind of impossible. However, I'm not saying pay 20$ for a game made with total RTP or anything :/

 

[arcthemonkey]

You've made less actually. You need 4,000.

I probably changed one number and didn't re-math the other. I don't math. Try 2000 at $10.

This whole discussion actually makes me afraid for the future of indie games, in general. The "I won't pay more than $10" attitude does seem to reach beyond RPG Maker, but with it comes shorter games, lower quality and a higher rate of churning out similar things to keep money coming in. If you watch games being produced in general, this is already occurring.

It's been occurring for a long time, and is a big part of my problem with paying a primo price for homebrew - they are pretty much a dime a dozen, and finding the games in the giant mountain of crap isn't easy. I think the bar is also set too low on RPG Maker games for most people. Something may be "really good for an RPG Maker game", and people may lose their minds, but what is that saying, really? And does that mean it's actually an objectively good game?

I'm also not saying that I may not be convinced to pay more in the future, either, but for now it seems like even the games that people rant and rave about end up boiling down to "pretty good for RPG Maker, good job". I've only played so many RPG Maker games, but when you think about it really objectively - how many of these, if they were released for SNES back in 1996 do you think would have sold millions of copies for $60-$80? I'm trying to be realistic here, I'm not saying that The Amber Throne, or Lisa (I frikkin love Lisa btw, and the Amber Throne looks great but gooood $15) wouldn't have done very well for themselves in the SNES or PSX era, but most of the games we are probably talking about here aren't in that boat. People couldn't have gotten away with partially RTP graphics, for one thing. While it's also true that many of the more popular RPG Maker Games, like To the Moon or Stray Cat Crossing (Or Lisa, for that matter), probably wouldn't have been possible to market back then, that doesn't mean they are worth $20 now.

Again, I love this community and I love RPG Maker, but there are only a few very special exceptions to the fact that I could probably use that $20 to buy two other games that are better. You have to get under $10 before I start getting less defensive of my money.

I guess I don't want to debate this for forever. I just don't see how $20 is justified in a pragmatic way.

 

[m4uesviecr]

(I have no idea why people are paying so much for music, btw, but maybe I'm lucky in that I am close friends with multiple musicians)

You just tore my heart straight out from under my ribcage. When you pay for music, you're not paying for something to just prattle on in the background. When you pay for music (though in all honesty, you are paying for talent and audio skill), you are paying for something that seriously adds to the experience.

If you are paying for someone to just make a battle theme or create something to simply slap into your game so it isn't a predecessor to silent films, then they, and you, are missing the value of what music does for a game. To add, costs for original music gets pricey once you start hiring people that write for a living (people with high quality instruments, with connections to musicians that can perform live).

Also, MOST musicians that play professionally (as in, performing is their profession) expect to recieve, and should be given, a fair compensation, since nothing beats someone skilled at their craft performing music for you.

Not to be a douchebag, but I would seriously love to hear the work of your friends, and, if they ARE good, I am going to assume that writing is an intense hobby for them. (This is me assuming that you pay them in peanuts or pizza)

Anyway..

Just because games are priced at $10, and it's the norm, doesn't mean that's how it should be. Yeah, that last sentence was horrible marketing advice, but it's the truth. Yes, To The Moon is a great game, but if you were to compare games now to the standards that To the Moon set, you'd figure the price would increase.

Lisa not only has a captivating story-line and custom music (like To the Moon), it is also 3 times as long and has custom artwork.

In my opinion, Lisa could have gone, easily, for $15. We don't know why it was priced for $9.99. Maybe because, if it were to compare itself to the success of To the Moon, it shouldn't be more than? Albeit overlooking all of the extra stuff it offers? I'm sure there are PLENTY of people who would disagree with me mainly because most rpg maker games are $9.99 and under. I am sure there are a ton of people who would have overlooked Lisa if it had sold for 15. At least, until they found out how f'ing great the story was. Or how grimy the setting of the game was. Then they'd save their money to get a game that they believe would have the potential to blow their socks off. Perhaps they would decide to wait for the game to go on sale, then rant and rave about it, enticing other people to pay for the game.

Though I slightly agree with the"paying for play-time" bit, it only goes but so far with RPG games. If I had to choose between paying for an okay game with 30 hours of gameplay and a game with 5 hours of playtime and a captivating story, I'd pay for the 5 hour game. Rpgs weren't meant to go on til the end of time. Their purpose is to conjure up a story that will forever be ingrained in your brain. Something that you will remember and on occasion go back to. Would I pay $60 for a Final Fantasy game over a Pvp Title? Any day, because my idea of a great gaming experience is a dope storyline and multi-dimensional characters, not fighting with people online.

All that aside, most developers set their price on the great games that come before them. Not saying that rpg maker games that price their title higher than To The Moon are cocky, but no one knows that their game is going to be a hit until it's a hit. You could price it low, because it is expected, or price it fair. I don't think it's fair that a developer should price their game low merely because it's their "first commercial game". If that's the case, people who start their careers for the first time should get paid peanuts for their work. Even rookies in their field get paid a fair wage, and as their skill increases, so does the amount they are "worth". Still, turning a profit is the most important part, especially if you want it to be a career. For those wanting to make game dev a full-time affair, pricing their game at $5 is too risky, especially if the game flops. I guess devs who didn't break the bank on the custom stuff needn't charge as much as those who have little to no artistic/musical/programming skill.

So.. how much would I pay for a rpg maker game? For rpg maker... the higher it goes, the more it is going to be compared to other higher end rpgs. I'd say no more than $20, and that's for completely customed titles. Any higher and you better be shelling out something that looks like FF10.

To be frank, I wouldn't pay for a game that uses default RTP. I wouldn't even look at it. Now, if it uses modified rtp and the storyline is great... then I'd pay for it. No more than $10, though. I hate to say it, but the skin is important to me. Art can add a whole new ambiance to a game, and RTP can only go but so far.

Also, for anyone who reads this (arc especially), I apologize if I come off as rude.

 

[Sausage_Boi]

I think $10 for an experienced developer, producing good games with Rm is about the high point for me. I don't even pay $60 for the Triple A titles, though, so keep that in mind. $40 is when I will start to consider it. Unless I am really wetting my pants to play it, and i haven't seen a game like that since Xenogears. I would consider $20 for an RM game if the developer was either producing their own custom assets or doing the majority of the scripting themselves and had an amazing story and made great use of tinting and other engine functions that I don't feel I see much of.

 

[arcthemonkey]

Not to be a douchebag, but I would seriously love to hear the work of your friends, and, if they ARE good, I am going to assume that writing is an intense hobby for them. (This is me assuming that you pay them in peanuts or pizza)

Ha, no worries - my resident composer is Nick GP, a multi-instrument virtuoso musician and audio engineer, long-time collaborator/partner in my RPG Maker Projects, and one of my best friends. I don't pay him a cent. Well, I made dinner last time I was over there. My point is, he is a serious, professional musician who does literally nothing else to make a living.

is a good example of a track for a game we never even almost finished, so just ignore the rest and the awful menu sound effects.

He's the long haired dude in this:

 

[Lux Fortuna]

Your comment brings a light on an odd duality on RPG Maker games. They all fall under the "genre" of RPG Maker games (wanting or not it IS treated as such by many, including the steam library itself) while people's expectations regarding them vary more and more. I personally would never ever even look at an rpg maker game "that was online, had voice communication, guild systems, pvp game modes, active updates (monthly?), fully customizable characters, new monthly quests, leaderboards, strong trading system, strong co-op mode, extremely difficult end-game content, incentives to continue farming/playing the game after beating the primary story, a stable economy, and a large player population" simply because that isn't what i look on rpg maker games. (and imho, it shouldn't be for anyone) Well, to be honest I'd check it out as a developer due to my curiosity on how such a complex system was achieved but... That's 120% not what I want to play nor what I want to make. Now, comparing the hour depth of an offline rpg to that of an mmo is rather unfair. I play League of Legends -- technically unlimited hours of fun for 100% free. That doesn't stop me from buying other games.

I know many RPG Maker games clock much higher than Parasite Eve, Final Fantasy X, etc... (I paid a full 200 reais for my copy of FFX HD, which is around 60 dollars) and that's a much fairer comparison.

Just because they fall under the RPG category doesn't mean they're limited to traditional modes. In reality Guild Wars 2 is a glorified RPG. The selling point -for me- would merely be novelty's sake, so if an RPG has a unique point or system about it, I may pay more than I would for others in the genre. 

Just because I would play some games for free doesn't mean I hold everything to that standard. I've purchased plenty of games and played them for less than I have games that are free with no regrets.

If I went to spend ~$20+ on a game, I can't fathom a scenario where I would do that unless it had the production value of other games I spent $20 on. That typically includes 50-100 people working on the game for 1-2 years (totally guessing here).

To me it's the equivalent of amateur movie productions. I mean I could spend $10 for a ticket to see a movie my classmates made where they put ~2,000 hours making. It would still have an amateur script, amateur special effects, and pretty much amateur everything else since they don't work professionally in the industry. Or I could pay $10 and see a movie that spent millions of dollars in production, full-time commitment of famous, professional celebrities, producers, sound technicians, special effect artists, etc etc etc for a far more professional experience.

That isn't to say I wouldn't donate some cash or spend $1 to go view my classmate's production. But if they expected to charge what the big leagues charge, then I'd expect quality and substance that was competitive for that price.

Perhaps other people's circumstances are different. The cost isn't a problem for me, but at this point in my life where I am extremely focused on classes/job interviews I find less and less time to casually play games. So when I do make a purchase I am particularly selective in what I do buy. I don't have time to try out lots of games and so I don't usually take risks on "old-school" RPG's or non-AAA titles.

 

[JosephSeraph]

Fantastic example, you've set yourself. You could spend $10 to watch Transformers 2 or Fast and Furious, or spend $10 to watch something that wasn't tailored for maximum sales efficiency and pragmatism. I don't watch many movies so I can't cite any in particular, but changing the medium, you could spend $10 on a generic "high production value" superman comic -- which is safe to sell, doesn't take risks, etc. or you could buy a comic book by the considerably lesser known Migelanxo Prado.

EDIT: I'd like to mention that your game would likely fail to reach even the same number of players than a commercial one if it were free. Commercial games have much bigger reach, and there are several people that prefer the safety of purchasing a game than running the risk of playing a possibly buggy and messy free game. Not to mention when you release a game for free you can't advertise nor comission anything for the game as you won't get the money back, unless you are wealthy already and manage to have a job that pays for you + the game's creation and marketing costs and doesn't eat up your game making time. That is hardly a reality for anyone however.

 

[arcthemonkey]

production value

This right here. I pay for production value. If I'm going to pay a primo price, I want to be able to look at something and say, "This took a lot of people a lot of time, effort, and money to produce." Many RPG Maker games that are objectively impressive (because again, an impressive RPG Maker game means little) are the ones that can at least fake this.

Fantastic example, you've set yourself. You could spend $10 to watch Transformers 2 or Fast and Furious, or spend $10 to watch something that wasn't tailored for maximum sales efficiency and pragmatism. I don't watch many movies so I can't cite any in particular, but changing the medium, you could spend $10 on a generic "high production value" superman comic -- which is safe to sell, doesn't take risks, etc. or you could buy a comic book by the considerably lesser known Migelanxo Prado.

That's the reality of the indie business. It's risky to try to make a lot of money from very little.

 

[JosephSeraph]

Yes it is, but I still accrue more value to a comic by miguelanxo prado for instance than I do for generic super hero comic book #43856.

That's the charm of indie. That's the charm of not having 100 people development studios where people work for their salaries and rarely for the product itself.

A game produced by a small team has the advantage of being much closer to their particular visions, and being born of love and a creative vision that permeates the project.

After all for an indie team, they will just want to break even and have enough funds for their next games. For an AAA game, they need to earn several times the money they spent to feed the 100 man team for 5 years. The indie team is much more willing to take risks.

EDIT:

"This right here. I pay for production value. If I'm going to pay a primo price, I want to be able to look at something and say, "This took a lot of people a lot of time, effort, and money to produce." Many RPG Maker games that are objectively impressive (because again, an impressive RPG Maker game means little) are the ones that can at least fake this."

Big problem there mate. Games ain't faking anything. if a game is impressive and high quality, it is impressive and high quality, no matter how many people worked on it. I've worked as an English teacher for 2 years, and I have the highest Cambridge certificate, the CPE. I've never studied English anywhere before. I simply went to the school where I worked, did the test (with no certificates at the time) and got a perfect score. I was hired -- regardless of how much money I DID NOT spend on my education. It's exactly the same. If a game has 1000+ beautiful and immersive handdrawn maps, it doesn't matter whether they were made by only 1 person or by 100 people through 1 year or by 50 people through 2 years or by 50 people through 8 years.  It will still have 1000+ beautiful handdrawn maps.

EDIT2:

People seem to have a problem against paying for what something's worth. They seemingly want to pay for the creators' needs and not for the game's worth. If 1000 people worked on a mediocre game, it's still a mediocre game.

By the way, check the highly successful Touhou series. All games, bar none have been created by a single man -- ZUN.

 

[arcthemonkey]

No no, I'm arguing that they simply aren't worth what some people are charging for them.

edit: I don't see how whether or not we took the normal path to a professional certification is really relevant. I have an Epic OpTime certification that I got in about half of the time it takes most people, and I was hired for the job before I even had the cert.

But my pay is based on the work I do, not how fast I got my certification. If I worked half the time, I wouldn't expect to paid the same, nor would I deserve it.

 

[Vox Novus]

Okay vox's thoughts:

From a developer standpoint you try to price your game based on work/time that goes into it and the money to recoup costs from artists, musicians, etc... There reaches a point where a developer is going to have to price there game based on the environment it fits in. One needs to consider the game's length, what went into it and how it compares to other similar games in the market. There's also a point where a developer needs to realize what people would be willing to pay for a product.

Me: I wouldn't pay anywhere near $30 for a rpg maker game. For me at most I'd be more in line with Aldorlea's price ranges for some more of there recent works, as in a $15-20 range. Part of that though is because of the perceived sense of quality that is expected for games from Indinera (and ksjp17 ). For games from newer developers/ones I haven't heard of I would pay lower; they would need to prove to me they can put out quality games relative to the prices they set.

But Vox, why wouldn't you pay $30 and up for indy's next rpg epic then? I like games, a lot that includes console games, handheld games, etc... I don't have enough money to even buy all those games that interest me of which the standard is usually $29.99+. To me a price point of 20 and down is a golden area where I can consider a rpg maker game without factoring in other games I would want from consoles, handhelds, etc.

Final thoughts: There really is a lot that effects what people are willing to pay for a game and pricing is obviously a whole tricky field in commercial development itself. People don't like paying for things they feel they can make which is part of the bad rep with seeing rtp, that being said custom content doesn't make a game good either nor does it being a 80 hour game vs a 4hr game. It's a struggle between what the developer needs to make for their product and what the consumers want to pay for it.

 

[Sharm]

If my top favorite artists, writers, coders and composers from this site got together and made a game even if it was a crew of five and the game was only 10 hours of play I would pay $45 for it.  My point is that we have the people with the right skills to make the next great RPG.  Convince me that you've done that and I'll happily pay quite a lot for it.  I'm really picky though, so if you haven't convinced me I won't even pay $1.  I'm still playing some classic SNES games for the first time, I don't want to spend time on something that isn't great.

 

[trouble time]

EDIT:Not to mention when you release a game for free you can't advertise nor comission anything for the game as you won't get the money back, unless you are wealthy already and manage to have a job that pays for you + the game's creation and marketing costs and doesn't eat up your game making time. That is hardly a reality for anyone however.

I actually comission all my art and I'm just above the povertly line and I do plan on releasing my game for free. As for game making time, I only work 8 hours a day, and I only sleep about 5-6 hours.

 

[terrorchan]

If what Sharm said happened I still wouldn't pay that much for it. I wouldn't pay over 40$ for an AAA game, much less an indie :/

The most expensive game I've ever bought was Animal Crossing: New Leaf at launch 40$. There's no way the RPG Maker Engine itself could create such a game, no matter what you do to it.

Now that I think about it, I think I bought Bravely Default for 40$ and such a game could feasibly be made in the RPG Maker engine so maybe. . .idk now that I'm an adult and I have to spend my own money on stuff like I doubt I'd do it again