Paying for RPG Maker games

[JosephSeraph]

Well, it also depends on where you live which I forgot to factor in. I'm Brazilian so for I to get work its like 4x as expensive, especially marketing. But even so, you're still making a big sacrifice in order to get your game out there. In any case, living "just above the poverty line" can mean many things, and it is not uncommon to find artists in communitites such as rmw that end up undercharging. While you might get away with younger artists that undercharge and don't really mind it / don't have the skills to charge a proper price, no such thing will happen with marketing. I don't want to assume you're underpaying your artist(s) btw.

Also, 8 hour work + 5 hour sleep = 13 hours "busy"; (5 hour sleep is terribly unhealthy btw) now, adding on that: you don't teleport to work. you don't teleport back either. you have to cook (or pay your own expensive fast food), you have to find times of the day where you relax and play games, times of the day where you exercise so your body doesn't atrophy and your mind stays healthy, etc.

It's not easy as that. You're making a huge stretch. If you're able to make such huge sacrifices, kudos to you! Do you intend to pay marketing to have a reach for your game at least close to what it would have if it were commercial?

 

[Kes]

@Arcmonkey

You say that you cannot believe that games over $10-20 could sell 1000, and doubt that they would sell even 100 copies. You are too sceptical. Mine have. I know for a fact that games made by other indie devs have, but obviously I am not permitted to discuss other people's sales figures.

What you are suggesting is to set up the most vicious of vicious circles. Because you personally underestimate what's involved you insist on underpriced games for ever, for everyone and from everyone. People believe this and sell their games too cheaply. This then establishes a ridiculously low price as the norm, making it even more difficult to produce good games containing any custom assets - remember that a lot of things, even scripts, have to be paid for if the game is commercial . Could I suggest you read through the thread called something like 'Can you live on the funds you earn' in this part of the forum. I am not on a computer so can't give a link. What you are in effect saying is that no one should make a living from making RM games. Is that what you intended to say?

 

[Vox Novus]

@Ksjp17 Here you go: http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/45723-can-you-live-on-the-funds-you-make/

I agree, I don't think we should under value rm games either. Now a days a movie will set you back about $10 or more in the u.s. Isn't it strange to place to low a value on rm games which theoretically would have much more "meat" to them than a 1.5-2hr movie that is good for one viewing.

 

[Prescott]

Wow so many posts that I missed o.o

I don't have time to respond to each of you individually, but what I can say is that I am making the music along with my close friend Tyson who is making the sound effects. I am writing the story along with my friend Dakota, we both have a pretty extensive knowledge of creative writing and are sticklers for grammar (of course when I'm making a forum post I'm not too crazy about it). I am doing most of the graphic/sprite work, and I have a few friends who are willing to draw the character busts and story comic scenes (that's the best I can describe it).

Basically, all of it is being done through people we personally know and are good friends with. Most of it is being done by me (the soundtrack and everything in-engine is with my hand, which is why I'm delegating out some other facets such as armor, weapons, sound effects, graphics, etc). None of them have asked what the payment will be, or if we are selling the game at all, and I'm sure they will all be very surprised when I tell them we will be paying them royalties. It's more of, all of us have ALWAYS wanted to have some part in making a game, so doing it for free isn't an issue. Getting paid to do it is really cool though, and we do want to make something that is actually worth $5 or beyond. So 40+ hours of playtime doesn't just mean tons of random encounters (which we don't think we will even have in the game), massive amounts of grinding, or fetch quests galore. We want to make an engaging story with sidequests that really compliment the world.

While we were still thinking of ideas for the general direction of the game, I told Dakota that I would be very disappointed if we finished it in under a year. I want this game to take a while to make, and not just because we are slacking, but because we put a lot of hard work into it and love what we are creating.

We aren't trying to make a game to draw profits from it like some other game companies nowadays with their yearly returns. We really want to make something that we love and that we know players will love too, and will be glad they spent their money on it, no matter how much we price it out to be. We aren't making it $5 because we think it will be crappy and only "worth" $5, but because we want to make it more widely available.

My purpose on asking this question, was to see how much you would be willing to pay for something with what we have in mind for our game. There was a post a while back that I'm too lazy to find, but they said from just that one sentence of me explaining the main features so far of the game, without a trailer, they would pay $6 max for it. So I think that's a really great start (even though they don't represent everyone).

I hope you will all be able to appreciate the game, especially when we get more done and have trailers for it out! I'm confident that it will definitely be worth $5, and we are definitely giving it our all!

Thanks for all the responses. This post isn't asking you to stop discussing, just to let you know it's good for me to read all of this stuff!

 

[Sysen]

depends...

if it's a God-Tier troll game for short entertainment like Yohjo Simulator (duh).... i won't pay more than $5 for it 

But well... i usually see the game from the cover:

• Cool game cover, or banner
• Epic chara design
• Epic screenshot
• Beautiful menu
• Music
• Positive Review

If on the game screenshot or game page have 4 of them I'll gladly pay more than $10

usually good marketing like having featured on game website can rise the price bar (especially with sugarcoated good comments)

 

[Helladen]

Developing your own style is rare. Of the many games I have looked at in the commercial area: To the Moon and a few others hit it. Most RPG Maker games have no soul in them, they basically use the soul of RPG Maker and RPG Maker only. Being an experienced game developer takes years and years. So many developers jump in the RPG Maker train and try to sell their game. Doing that will burn you out quicker than anything. I have been developing RPGs since RPG Maker 2000 and ORPGs since 2007. I barely consider myself ready for such a task, sure I can make some mediocre RPG Maker game with a flashy trailer. I see so many commercial RPG Maker games do that, but that has no soul to me. Even flashy art, I see so many do this as well, but the combat and all that is too stale to me. I am so picky it is unbelievable, I am so picky I can't even play games anymore. That's when you know you are ready to design a game with your own style. It is like a chief who becomes a master, they hate food now that they are so good at preparing it. The same goes for developing a video game, you start to hate the very thing you craft.

Every time I bring this up people don't really think I know what I am talking about, sure you need to get your foot into the door, but that ship has sailed. The indie train is now only for the elite, the best of the best. It is hard to get money from games anymore, there's so many out there. RPG Maker games have little breathing room like any genre, I analyzed the sale figures. Most people hate RPG Maker games, they feel stale and the same. I've read countless comments about it. Although, the JRPG genre is needing a new innovative game to bring it forward. It hasn't really moved forward in a long time. Square-Enix tried to do it with action RPG, but that's western RPG not JRPG. They have lost their soul too.

Generally after the rant, you typically want to stay around 5-10 dollars for your game. Indie games the best of the best sell for 10 dollars. It is the perfect price for indies to start off. If you sell it for 15 or even 20, you are going to lose half of your or likely more customers. Having your game go on sale to 3-4 dollars is the sweet spot too, you will get most of your sales during this time. Make sure to price your game in this range, I would price it for 3 dollars if it is not that good - even 2.

 

[arcthemonkey]

@Arcmonkey

You say that you cannot believe that games over $10-20 could sell 1000, and doubt that they would sell even 100 copies. You are too sceptical. Mine have. I know for a fact that games made by other indie devs have, but obviously I am not permitted to discuss other people's sales figures.

What you are suggesting is to set up the most vicious of vicious circles. Because you personally underestimate what's involved you insist on underpriced games for ever, for everyone and from everyone. People believe this and sell their games too cheaply. This then establishes a ridiculously low price as the norm, making it even more difficult to produce good games containing any custom assets - remember that a lot of things, even scripts, have to be paid for if the game is commercial . Could I suggest you read through the thread called something like 'Can you live on the funds you earn' in this part of the forum. I am not on a computer so can't give a link. What you are in effect saying is that no one should make a living from making RM games. Is that what you intended to say?

You're right, I was definitely wrong about that, and impressed. That said, I'm not insisting on anything. People can price their games however they want, and if people buy them then that's great. But I'm not going to pay that much. Only a very, very few truly exception among us are going to be able to make a living with RPG Maker. You guys really shouldn't be spending $20,000 making your games unless those games are truly exceptional. And if you really want to make a living, then I think you are a hell of a lot more likely to sell 100,000 copies of your truly exceptional RPG Maker game for $5 then you are to sell 25,000 copies for $20.

Developing your own style is rare. Of the many games I have looked at in the commercial area: To the Moon and a few others hit it. Most RPG Maker games have no soul in them, they basically use the soul of RPG Maker and RPG Maker only. Being an experienced game developer takes years and years. So many developers jump in the RPG Maker train and try to sell their game. Doing that will burn you out quicker than anything. I have been developing RPGs since RPG Maker 2000 and ORPGs since 2007. I barely consider myself ready for such a task, sure I can make some mediocre RPG Maker game with a flashy trailer. I see so many commercial RPG Maker games do that, but that has no soul to me. Even flashy art, I see so many do this as well, but the combat and all that is too stale to me. I am so picky it is unbelievable, I am so picky I can't even play games anymore. That's when you know you are ready to design a game with your own style. It is like a chief who becomes a master, they hate food now that they are so good at preparing it. The same goes for developing a video game, you start to hate the very thing you craft.

This is a big part of why I am loving LISA so much, so far, and will probably drop some more money on the DLC (hey, that will put me over $10!). This game is oozing soul. It feels so nostalgic (giving serious Earthbound vibes) while being completely unlike anything I've player before... and it's just a good game, to boot.

Please keep in mind, everyone, that I'm not trying to say that the games you are making are crap. Far from it. But I'd really like to hear from some of the people who think these game are being undercharged for aren't trying to charge $60 for theirs.

 

[Indinera]

then I think you are a hell of a lot more likely to sell 100,000 copies of your truly exceptional RPG Maker game for $5 then you are to sell 25,000 copies for $20.

If you make $500,000 with one game, you've made the equivalent of 10 years of living in even the richest countries (and eternal life in the middle/poor ones), you can give yourself some slack and see what's coming next with your mind at peace lol

That said, it's better to have sold 25,000 copies at $20, because you're likely to sell extra copies at $10 (on discount), then at $5 (further discounting) and so on.

Whereas you will never be able to sell copies of your $5 game at $10. So in the end the 25,000 copies is by FAR the best money-maker in the long run.

 

[metronome]

@indinera

500,000 USD! Errr.....I do want to know how many RM games made that much. But I know you will say "it is a secret, nobody is going to tell you how much sales they made" or something like that.

You are right about "eternal life" part btw. 84 - 105 years of single life without worry to be exact

@matseb2611

Yea, agreed. Certainly quality matters.

But if someone ask you:"hey I have a game with 40 hour gameplay etc etc", it would be rude to ask whether their game has good quality or not, wouldn't it?

Assuming he has a decent (8/10+ rating game in term of "quality"), then I would look at the quantity provided by that sentence alone to see how much money (on maximum) that I will spend on his/her game.

 

[trouble time]

Well, it also depends on where you live which I forgot to factor in. I'm Brazilian so for I to get work its like 4x as expensive, especially marketing. But even so, you're still making a big sacrifice in order to get your game out there. In any case, living "just above the poverty line" can mean many things, and it is not uncommon to find artists in communitites such as rmw that end up undercharging. While you might get away with younger artists that undercharge and don't really mind it / don't have the skills to charge a proper price, no such thing will happen with marketing. I don't want to assume you're underpaying your artist(s) btw.

Also, 8 hour work + 5 hour sleep = 13 hours "busy"; (5 hour sleep is terribly unhealthy btw) now, adding on that: you don't teleport to work. you don't teleport back either. you have to cook (or pay your own expensive fast food), you have to find times of the day where you relax and play games, times of the day where you exercise so your body doesn't atrophy and your mind stays healthy, etc.

It's not easy as that. You're making a huge stretch. If you're able to make such huge sacrifices, kudos to you! Do you intend to pay marketing to have a reach for your game at least close to what it would have if it were commercial?

I'm aware it's not easy, and if you' believe it I've actually slowed down a lot after I actually collapsed from exhaustion once. I will probably need to slow down again soon, especially since I won't have a fixed schedule anymore (sometimes I'll work nights now so I will probably end up sleeping more on days I don't work at 6 A.M.

 

[Indinera]

"it is a secret, nobody is going to tell you how much sales they made" or something like that.

More or less.

I always recommend to try for yourself and see. Of course, unless you get very lucky, you're unlikely to pull off great numbers from the beginning, but you're better off getting started anyway.

You are right about "eternal life" part btw. 84 - 105 years of single life without worry to be exact

Put some at the bank with some yearly interest and in some countries you CAN live eternally... well until the bank or the currency crashes, that is.

 

[Matseb2611]

The indie train is now only for the elite, the best of the best. It is hard to get money from games anymore, there's so many out there. RPG Maker games have little breathing room like any genre, I analyzed the sale figures. Most people hate RPG Maker games, they feel stale and the same. I've read countless comments about it.

@ Aeirex: I am curious where you're getting all this from. It seems vastly exaggerated to me. Really, if you put a lot of work into your RM game to try to make it as fun and as polished as possible, then it will sell well. Of course marketing is highly important too, so you need to know how to promote your game, or hire someone who can do it for you. But what I can tell you for sure is that there are plenty of people out there who will be willing to pick up an RM game of respectable quality.

But if someone ask you:"hey I have a game with 40 hour gameplay etc etc", it would be rude to ask whether their game has good quality or not, wouldn't it?

@ Metronome: I think it's irrelevant. They claim they have 40 hours of gameplay, but we don't know that. From the points I raised earlier, these 40 hours could as well be 25 hours for one player and 55 for another. These 40 hours could be just 10 hours story and 30 hours arena battles. These 40 hours could be just 20 hours of story with assumption the player will play through New Game+ for further 20. These 40 hours could be just 10 hours of quality gameplay and 30 hours of grinding through repetitive battles. I think there are just way too many factors at play here to be able to accurately state how many hours your game is worth.

One thing that really bothers me about a lot of posts on here is the whole discrimination of RM game vs non-RM game. I mean, does it really matter if the game is made with RM engine or not? If it's a good game, then it's a good game. Compare it to indie games made in other engines. For example, wouldn't a sidescroller or a simple tower defence game be worth $10? What exactly makes an RM game any different (assuming it was done to a decent standard)?

 

[metronome]

@ Metronome: I think it's irrelevant. They claim they have 40 hours of gameplay, but we don't know that. From the points I raised earlier, these 40 hours could as well be 25 hours for one player and 55 for another. These 40 hours could be just 10 hours story and 30 hours arena battles. These 40 hours could be just 20 hours of story with assumption the player will play through New Game+ for further 20. These 40 hours could be just 10 hours of quality gameplay and 30 hours of grinding through repetitive battles. I think there are just way too many factors at play here to be able to accurately state how many hours your game is worth.


One thing that really bothers me about a lot of posts on here is the whole discrimination of RM game vs non-RM game. I mean, does it really matter if the game is made with RM engine or not? If it's a good game, then it's a good game. Compare it to indie games made in other engines. For example, wouldn't a sidescroller or a simple tower defence game be worth $10? What exactly makes an RM game any different (assuming it was done to a decent standard)?

Agreed.

A 1000- pages novel could be 5 hour read to me, could be 100 hour read for my mom, and it could even be 1 hour read for someone special. Heck, the size of the text in that novel, the number of line spacing in that novel, even the narration itself  (and many many more) will be the factors that will decide how long someone will read the novel, and even after counting all of those factors, you will not get the exact result.

The problem is, if "40+ hours gameplay" is all the information you get, and if that's all you will ever ever get, then there are only 3 choices in front of you (IMO):

1. Be positive

2. Be negative

3. Refuse to answer

Choice 1: You assume that you will get 40+ hours of gameplay (the way you want to play it, be it grind fest, story heavy events, no random battle, and so on).

Choice 2: You assume that you will NOT get 40+ hours of the gameplay the way you want to play it.

Choice 3: You either walk away or inquire for more details

I am just being positive and go for choice 1, that's it.

I could choose the 3rd option, but then......looking at the sentence alone, I do think he is not asking detailed and scientific question. All he wants is my knee-jerk reaction on hearing that question, so I don't know why I should go for 3, but then that doesn't mean you shouldn't. Just matter of personal choice I guess.

 

[Matseb2611]

Yeah, I got ya. I guess what I am trying to say is that the amount of content doesn't matter too much to me, so long as it's not too little and so long as the quality makes up for it.

Say if I saw a very promising looking RPG on Steam and it promises on features I generally like and the setting looks right up my alley, at this point whether it promises 15 hours of gameplay or 40 wouldn't make any difference to me and I'd still pay the same amount of money for it, because I'm paying for what I perceive the game's quality is worth. The only time length would play a role for me is at the far low end of things. If a game is only say 2 hours long, I'm unlikely to pay $10-20 for it and would rather wait for it to go on a discount.

Then again, maybe it's just me and perhaps other people would disagree.

 

[Kyuukon]

Considering a cinema ticket goes around that price. It wouldn't be too crazy to pay $10-15 for a 2 hours game you can replay anytime you want, right?

 

[Matseb2611]

Yeah, it's reasonable, but it would depend on the game. If it's very replayable, then sure, but if it's a one-time experience and afterwards it's all the same, then that price becomes questionable. Then again, it also depends on the person and how much they're normally willing to spend on games.

 

[JosephSeraph]

I'm aware it's not easy, and if you' believe it I've actually slowed down a lot after I actually collapsed from exhaustion once. I will probably need to slow down again soon, especially since I won't have a fixed schedule anymore (sometimes I'll work nights now so I will probably end up sleeping more on days I don't work at 6 A.M.

Which is obviously an unsustainable situation. What you're doing is not right, now I'm not your nanny in order to tell you what's best for you or not but I can assure you it is incorrect to expect such level of self sacrifice from the average creator when there are so many easier and more effective choices.

I mean, living "just above the poverty line" will give you a very small budget to invest on the game, no matter how many sacrifices you make. Investing on a commercial game is another thing entirely. It is a fact that commercial games beat by far freeware games in terms of exposure / players. Sites will review your game if it is commercial, while coming by reviews on serious sites when you're freeware is a lot harder. People will stumble upon your game on selling portals. You'll be paying marketing and advertising, sending press releases to a plethora of big and small gaming sites, people will buy it on steam and friends will see they have that in their library, all in all the exposure and player base you get as a commercial dev is absurdly bigger than that which you get as a freeware dev. Expecting yourself to get more players because your game is free is seeing the world in rose tinted glasses.

also, I don't understand why people seem to put making money and being a commercial dev into such a villainous pedestal in 2015. I mean, this stigma should've dissipated more than half a decade ago, within the RM community? In any case, people need to live. People want to live from what they love. Just chill and let that be u guys

Also, you guys, how many rm games have you actually commercially bought? I see you yourselves have a bad stigma against rm games.

 

[Lux Fortuna]

I could personally care less what people charge for their game. The point I'm trying to make is there is an enormously vast population of players with a mind-set similar to mine: "why would I spend $20 on this indie RPG when I could buy something that other people invested a LOT more money and a LOT more professional time and expertise, and a LOT more people play the game and talk about it?" While many in that audience probably would not care to purchase an indie RPG anyway, a lot of them would be more willing to spend $1-$10 on a game. It also depends on who your audience is, because I don't know about kids these days, but I hardly had more than $1-$5 to spend on games growing up. So unless your target audience is people with jobs, I doubt the teenage generation will be asking mom and dad for RPG X for Christmas instead of Super Mario 100 or w/e. Looking at the market and I picture most RPG purchases as being impulse purchases by people who don't think the amount will impact their ability to pay rent. Even for people with jobs, sometimes it takes planning to make a $20 purchase. Much less so for $1-$5. I mean, if you showed me an RPG Maker game with a few million dollars invested into it made by a crew of 50-100 for 1-2 years and if the theme seems interesting and gameplay looks solid and it looks like a game I would enjoy, then I'd happily spend $60. This isn't to say there aren't RPG's that have interesting stories, or gameplay, etc etc, but not nearly to the level of professionalism that I typically see in AAA titles.

The problem isn't convincing people "Hey you're wrong, people should be paying $40 for our good RPG games." It's unlikely you're going to convince someone that an indie game with ~$50,000 invested in it and 2,000 hours of work by 5 people is competitve with AAA titles that have millions invested into them with a crew that is 100+. That isn't to say SOME people won't purchase your game. If your audience is people with secure jobs who can splurge $40 on a 20 hour experience then great, make the sales.

I don't have anything against the RM, I mean I am here aren't I? I am telling you why I, and many other like-minded individuals, won't justify spending more than $10ish on an RPG game. I'm not saying the mentality is right or wrong, but I am presenting the problem to you. Perhaps you'll make more money selling to the select group who WILL pay more than $10 for the game, but perhaps you'll make more money and reach a wider audience selling for a lower price. Like I said, the problem isn't "convincing us" why we're so ignorant on the benefits of indie development. The problem is deciding who your audience is, how you plan to reach that audience, and what you're going to charge them, and whether or not they'll decide to pay the amount you charge. 

 

[trouble time]

Which is obviously an unsustainable situation. What you're doing is not right, now I'm not your nanny in order to tell you what's best for you or not but I can assure you it is incorrect to expect such level of self sacrifice from the average creator when there are so many easier and more effective choices.

I mean, living "just above the poverty line" will give you a very small budget to invest on the game, no matter how many sacrifices you make. Investing on a commercial game is another thing entirely. It is a fact that commercial games beat by far freeware games in terms of exposure / players. Sites will review your game if it is commercial, while coming by reviews on serious sites when you're freeware is a lot harder. People will stumble upon your game on selling portals. You'll be paying marketing and advertising, sending press releases to a plethora of big and small gaming sites, people will buy it on steam and friends will see they have that in their library, all in all the exposure and player base you get as a commercial dev is absurdly bigger than that which you get as a freeware dev. Expecting yourself to get more players because your game is free is seeing the world in rose tinted glasses.

also, I don't understand why people seem to put making money and being a commercial dev into such a villainous pedestal in 2015. I mean, this stigma should've dissipated more than half a decade ago, within the RM community? In any case, people need to live. People want to live from what they love. Just chill and let that be u guys

Also, you guys, how many rm games have you actually commercially bought? I see you yourselves have a bad stigma against rm games.

Im on a phone atm, and i cant really reply, but id like to say that im aware its, well i wouldn't say incorrect, but i actually agree with you. Ill elaborate later, but the reason i teplied earlier was just a look into what people seem to think indie devs should be doing.

 

[JosephSeraph]

The problem isn't convincing people "Hey you're wrong, people should be paying $40 for our good RPG games." It's unlikely you're going to convince someone that an indie game with ~$50,000 invested in it and 2,000 hours of work by 5 people is competitve with AAA titles that have millions invested into them with a crew that is 100+. That isn't to say SOME people won't purchase your game. If your audience is people with secure jobs who can splurge $40 on a 20 hour experience then great, make the sales.

I understand what you're trying to say but this mentality is wrong! indie games are purer than AAA titles to the most. It's a well known fact that many indie authors decide to become indie authors because they feel the mainstreak AAA market doesn't give them what they want. And as such they decide to go on and create their little jewel, with lots of love a comparatively small budget and a fierce idea that's in its purest form, worked only by the hands of the person which conceived it. The AAA market doesn't give ME the kind of experience I want when playing a game anymore. It's now all diffused and cluttered into pleasurefests and westernization of everything, final fantasy is dead, when I mention rpgs people bring up Deus EX and Fallout... And such I am MUCH more prone to spend $60 on an indie game or a quality game from past generations than on something from this AAA generation. Why would I spend $60 or whatever on Fallout 4 when it doesn't do absolutely anything I'd want a game to do? These expectations are much easier to be met by an indie dev that's taking risks and making their creations with both love and a pure, untainted vision. They WILL sell less than F4 or whatever, but that's obvious. They're not meant to be AAA, they're meant to deliver a prime experience for those who are seeking of it. But IDK.

I think I may be speaking too much, and actually losing any point of anything I've said. My words are getting dull and pointless. I'll go elsewhere and try to do something productive instead of refuting everyone's arguments for reasons I don't even know XD