Paying for RPG Maker games

[metronome]

Which is obviously an unsustainable situation. What you're doing is not right, now I'm not your nanny in order to tell you what's best for you or not but I can assure you it is incorrect to expect such level of self sacrifice from the average creator when there are so many easier and more effective choices.

I mean, living "just above the poverty line" will give you a very small budget to invest on the game, no matter how many sacrifices you make. Investing on a commercial game is another thing entirely. It is a fact that commercial games beat by far freeware games in terms of exposure / players. Sites will review your game if it is commercial, while coming by reviews on serious sites when you're freeware is a lot harder. People will stumble upon your game on selling portals. You'll be paying marketing and advertising, sending press releases to a plethora of big and small gaming sites, people will buy it on steam and friends will see they have that in their library, all in all the exposure and player base you get as a commercial dev is absurdly bigger than that which you get as a freeware dev. Expecting yourself to get more players because your game is free is seeing the world in rose tinted glasses.

also, I don't understand why people seem to put making money and being a commercial dev into such a villainous pedestal in 2015. I mean, this stigma should've dissipated more than half a decade ago, within the RM community? In any case, people need to live. People want to live from what they love. Just chill and let that be u guys

Also, you guys, how many rm games have you actually commercially bought? I see you yourselves have a bad stigma against rm games.

Are you saying that commercial game beats free games(including free with IAP feature/freemium games) in terms of exposure and number of players FOR 100% SURE?

If you say "yes", then I would have to disagree.~~

And no, I haven't seen people put making money and being a commercial dev into a villainous pedestal till now......just because some people do not agree that a game from specific engine should cost more than 20 USD, doesn't mean they put the commercial dev into a villainous pedestal.....

Me? As I said before in this thread, I would buy your 20 USD and up, if your game is the next suikoden 1/2, corpse party, FF6, chrono trigger, dragon quest, persona, fallout, baldur's gate, or whatever....

Bad stigma? Seriously, I have bad stigma in almost every games made nowadays......but that's different case

 

[JosephSeraph]

IAP/Freemium games are commercial games.

 

[Sausage_Boi]

You know what I don't really dig these days? JRPGs. They were my favorite genre when I was a kid, but these days its all basically the same thing, over and over. Thinking about it, I wouldn't pay more than $5 for an exceptional JRPG made with ANY engine. I play a few JRPGs now and then, but only the free ones I find on sites like this, and usually demos to give feedback. (True, its been few months since I've done that...). 

I am such a cheapskate, I buy triple A titles after they are used (and no more than $30) or have dropped massively in price. And I rarely buy any games these days, after I discovered PS Now. Playing new (to me) games all day long!

Having said that, if you use RPG maker to make a completely NON-RPG, then I will loosen my wallet a little bit more. But I am still cheap, so it might be as much as $10.

 

[Pahhur]

I feel, if you are in the indie market for games, ideals aside you have two paths:

1) Build a name for yourself, start at a small amount of payoff and work your way up as you provide reliable entertainment.

2) Make something marketable and use that as a resume to get work in a AAA studio. Maybe even continuing to work on your projects there with more resources.

It would be great if indie games could make the same as a AAA game, but it just isn't reality. Reality is 20$ indie games are asking a lot for a relative unknown. There aren't massive trailers playing on every TV set advertising these games and showing what they are about, there aren't hundreds of thousands of people talking about these games and what they found inside, and in most cases there isn't a brand recognition or a serialized set of characters.

Can things change? Maybe, but it would require other factors to go away. Much of the world is still in a recession, and the number of people with disposable income is continuing to shrink. I know I can't look at spending 5$ right now on a game, much less 20$.

My personal suggestion; if you are looking at making games as a source of income look at getting either a crowd funding site going, or a donation based service. This way you are at least covering the costs of what you are making, and can maybe even turn a profit. But I don't think anyone entering the market for the first time should expect to do more than break even. Getting your foot in the door is the important thing, from there you can work your way up.

 

[bgillisp]

But I don't think anyone entering the market for the first time should expect to do more than break even. Getting your foot in the door is the important thing, from there you can work your way up.

This is probably the best advice I can give anyone trying to make a commercial game (and yes, my game is marked as commercial too). See, I figure for my first game I'll probably break even *if* I'm lucky. However, that game is to get my foot in the door. Then, if all goes well, the second game will have an audience, and it will be easier to break even.

Plus, one thing that is often overlooked is once you sell your 2nd game (or 3rd or 4th) is sometimes you attract new players who then want to go back and play the previous games you made. So maybe you don't break even initially, but you break even eventually.

 

[Helladen]

@ Aeirex: I am curious where you're getting all this from. It seems vastly exaggerated to me. Really, if you put a lot of work into your RM game to try to make it as fun and as polished as possible, then it will sell well. Of course marketing is highly important too, so you need to know how to promote your game, or hire someone who can do it for you. But what I can tell you for sure is that there are plenty of people out there who will be willing to pick up an RM game of respectable quality.

Not if it is bland and generic. Professional indie developers have stated the indie success is now a bubble, you can't get into the industry that easy anymore. Back in 2011 you could release a RPG Maker game on Steam and get a lot of money, now you have to have something really special. I have analyzed the sales figures, don't believe me maybe I am exaggerating. That doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to go below this though, the better you do the better the game will sell. Even really successful companies struggle selling games, what makes your RPG Maker game that offers nothing unique got to offer? That's my point. There's little breathing room and people are naive to think they can release a RPG Maker game without much customization and expect it to sell.

 

[Matseb2611]

Plus, one thing that is often overlooked is once you sell your 2nd game (or 3rd or 4th) is sometimes you attract new players who then want to go back and play the previous games you made. So maybe you don't break even initially, but you break even eventually.

This is exactly what happens. 100% agreed. Each game you put out can boost the sales of your other games. It doesn't matter if you don't break even after a month or a year. If you keep making games, eventually you will.

Not if it is bland and generic. Professional indie developers have stated the indie success is now a bubble, you can't get into the industry that easy anymore. Back in 2011 you could release a RPG Maker game on Steam and get a lot of money, now you have to have something really special. I have analyzed the sales figures, don't believe me maybe I am exaggerating. That doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to go below this though, the better you do the better the game will sell. Even really successful companies struggle selling games, what makes your RPG Maker game that offers nothing unique got to offer? That's my point. There's little breathing room and people are naive to think they can release a RPG Maker game without much customization and expect it to sell.

The definitions of bland and generic will differ vastly from one person to another, and it's also not what I was talking about. I was not talking about some mediocre RM game with no custom assets whatsoever made in a couple of weeks. I was talking about the kind of games that take at least a good few months and a lot of work and dedication. Believe me, there is an audience for RM games, so long as you make them as good as you possibly can. I've already broken even with both of my released commercial projects, and they still haven't stopped selling. I don't see why this would be different for anyone else's RM game of similar quality.

 

[Helladen]

The definitions of bland and generic will differ vastly from one person to another, and it's also not what I was talking about. I was not talking about some mediocre RM game with no custom assets whatsoever made in a couple of weeks. I was talking about the kind of games that take at least a good few months and a lot of work and dedication. Believe me, there is an audience for RM games, so long as you make them as good as you possibly can. I've already broken even with both of my released commercial projects, and they still haven't stopped selling. I don't see why this would be different for anyone else's RM game of similar quality.

I am wrong about that I suppose, but your game uses a different art style than most RPG Maker games. You probably wouldn't of sold that many if it was using RTP.

 

[m4uesviecr]

Not if it is bland and generic. 

This is the case for any game, though. In a way, I am GLAD that the indie dev bubble has forced developers to actually produce top-quality work. Before, people could skim by on the bare essentials. The fact that they COMPLETED a game could merit a purchase.

Another thing that I don't quite understand - Why does the amount of hours and number of people working on the game matter? Why does it even factor into price? There are certain things that a team of 55 can do better (faster may be a more suitable word) than a team of 2, but quality is not measured by the number of hands used to create it.

Honestly, I figure that AAA titles are priced at $60 a pop because the game has to feed the mouths, families, and careers, of 55+ people. With that being said, selling a game for $15 ain't going to cut it. So you're not only paying for quality, but profit.

Still, that doesn't mean you don't price your product at an amount that reflects the amount of work you put into it. 

Also, I think hoping to break even is great advice. I don't think that should be the bar for which you set your pursuits. Basically, don't make a game to simply "get your foot in the door". I figure those games are the ones that are hobbyist projects that give you an idea of what game development is like. Most of the people who  end up being really successful are the ones who f'ing leapt. They had a great idea, and they jumped with it. You won't make money shoveling mediocrity.

@Soah:  About jrpgs being the same -- what jrpgs have you played? Outside of the classics? There are QUITE a few fantastic jrpgs, RPG Maker alone (free for that matter), that I believe have something to offer. I mean, if that's the case, people should be tired of every genre ever since most games are merely influenced/inspirations of latter ones. What makes jrpgs worth playing are ones that have something new to offer. If you're tired of jrpgs, then I don't think you are playing ones that are worth your time.

 I was talking about the kind of games that take at least a good few months 

When you say a few good months, do you mean at least half a year? Of full-time dev work?

 

[taarna23]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about "getting your foot in the door" with a free game, or one so underpriced you will never break even.

This can also apply to music, graphics, etc. Please remember, your time is a resource, just like anything you pay someone else to make. As soon as any creative work you do has you paying yourself nothing, you're trying to pay for that hot dog with "exposure."

 

[Prescott]

I understand what you're trying to say but this mentality is wrong! indie games are purer than AAA titles to the most. It's a well known fact that many indie authors decide to become indie authors because they feel the mainstreak AAA market doesn't give them what they want. And as such they decide to go on and create their little jewel, with lots of love a comparatively small budget and a fierce idea that's in its purest form, worked only by the hands of the person which conceived it. The AAA market doesn't give ME the kind of experience I want when playing a game anymore. It's now all diffused and cluttered into pleasurefests and westernization of everything, final fantasy is dead, when I mention rpgs people bring up Deus EX and Fallout... And such I am MUCH more prone to spend $60 on an indie game or a quality game from past generations than on something from this AAA generation. Why would I spend $60 or whatever on Fallout 4 when it doesn't do absolutely anything I'd want a game to do? These expectations are much easier to be met by an indie dev that's taking risks and making their creations with both love and a pure, untainted vision. They WILL sell less than F4 or whatever, but that's obvious. They're not meant to be AAA, they're meant to deliver a prime experience for those who are seeking of it. But IDK.

I think I may be speaking too much, and actually losing any point of anything I've said. My words are getting dull and pointless. I'll go elsewhere and try to do something productive instead of refuting everyone's arguments for reasons I don't even know XD

This I agree with completely. I haven't had as great of experiences with AAA games as I have had with indie games lately. I mean, Dust: An Elysian Tail is one of my favorite games of all time, and it was practically made by one dude.

The two biggest reasons AAA games sell more, I think, is marketing, and a wide audience appeal. TONS of people love FPS games. TONS of people love Open World RPG Bethesda-type games. A large amount of people love those brawlers like Batman, Mad Max, and Shadow of Mordor.

But how many people like badly controlling an octopus parading around a grocery store? Or a 2.5D puzzle platformer about an Eskimo girl and a spirit fox? Or an intensely hard top-down shooter with a confusing as f*** story line?

Not many people do. So I think our goal with this has been to make the game that we want to make, not that a large audience will want to play. Whoever likes JRPGs (yes, that is what we are making) will probably like it. If they don't, then they won't buy it and it's fine. We made the game we wanted to play, and that we wanted to make, so even if only one person buys it that's good enough for us. Especially because we are only putting work and time into the game, no money. The money we make from the game will be split up among all the people who worked on it, rather than paying people for it and then trying to make a profit. Because we want people to work on it that are engaged in making a good game, not just someone who will get paid and then be done with it, you know?

I feel, if you are in the indie market for games, ideals aside you have two paths:

1) Build a name for yourself, start at a small amount of payoff and work your way up as you provide reliable entertainment.

2) Make something marketable and use that as a resume to get work in a AAA studio. Maybe even continuing to work on your projects there with more resources.

It would be great if indie games could make the same as a AAA game, but it just isn't reality. Reality is 20$ indie games are asking a lot for a relative unknown. There aren't massive trailers playing on every TV set advertising these games and showing what they are about, there aren't hundreds of thousands of people talking about these games and what they found inside, and in most cases there isn't a brand recognition or a serialized set of characters.

Can things change? Maybe, but it would require other factors to go away. Much of the world is still in a recession, and the number of people with disposable income is continuing to shrink. I know I can't look at spending 5$ right now on a game, much less 20$.

My personal suggestion; if you are looking at making games as a source of income look at getting either a crowd funding site going, or a donation based service. This way you are at least covering the costs of what you are making, and can maybe even turn a profit. But I don't think anyone entering the market for the first time should expect to do more than break even. Getting your foot in the door is the important thing, from there you can work your way up.

These are all GREAT pointers. I love the part about getting your foot in the door. Like I said above, we are not paying people to make things for our game, rather, people are making things for our game and then we are paying them based on how well it does. If the game sells 40 copies at $5, then the sound effect guy would get, say, 10% of the net or whatever. Not an actual number but just an example. Then he would make $20. I think that pushes people to make the best art that they can possible make, and then even promote the game themselves afterwards, so they can earn more that way AND it's free marketing at least, it's good for a first game.

We do not want to make the game a high price exactly for the reason that you stated. We want it to be available to a wide variety of people. A $60 JRPG made in RPG Maker will reach a lot less people than a $5 one will. We still want to make the game very good, and not just a "five dollar game" that you would find in a bargain bin. We aren't trying to make a profit, because one sale will be a profit for us, so making it $5 is no problem.

EDIT: Taarna, that's awesome and a perfect representation xD for years, with my music, I have done tons of free stuff, playing at open mic nights and talent shows and benefit shows. But I now finally work as a musician for my job, and I could not have gotten there without that exposure. That's how it is with every art form out there, unless you are EXTREMELY LUCKY (or unlucky for a vast amount of people, including myself) and get picked up by Disney or something xD

I really don't mind spending my time on it, because A) I love doing it and I really don't have anything else going on, so why not keep myself preoccupied while doing something I love! When you don't have a girlfriend, you only work 9-12 hours a week, and you live away from your family, you find yourself accumulating a lot of free time.... but that's great. I can work on my music and on my game SO much, and I'm still being productive which makes me feel great.

 

[JosephSeraph]

Nice, but you STILL need to charge it correctly. Charging it little in order to have a "bigger" playerbase will only do the making of games a harder thing for your fellow devs, and in the end you're doing a disservice to the whole community because you're preventing people who actually make games as a carreer from, well, eating. When you lower your price you force all your colleagues to lower them as well, and lots of people want to make games full time! So this is unfair for people who do make games for a living. If you decide to settle for a low price -- lower than what it should be for your quality -- then I recommend you simply make it free so you don't harm your fellow devs and prevent awesome games from springing up in the future. This is the curse of the artist. Artists don't want to charge for their work, but without their daily meal their muscles won't have strength to hold a pencil anymore.

 

[Helladen]

Also, I think hoping to break even is great advice. I don't think that should be the bar for which you set your pursuits. Basically, don't make a game to simply "get your foot in the door". I figure those games are the ones that are hobbyist projects that give you an idea of what game development is like. Most of the people who  end up being really successful are the ones who f'ing leapt. They had a great idea, and they jumped with it. You won't make money shoveling mediocrity.

I agree with what you are saying, but most of these indies who took a jump were working in the industry for 15+ years before they took that jump. People who just find RPG Maker no matter how hard they try, it will take years before they can muster the skill to make a game that reaches that. I am not joking about the time necessary to become a successful indie, 15 years. You may get lucky and skim by with mediocrity games with flashy trailers. But that's not something I want to do to be successful. The choice is up to the developer for what they feel is best for them to do, but I am just offering my 2 cents like I always do.

 

[metronome]

IAP/Freemium games are commercial games.

You do know that in most freemium games or games that rely on IAP, there is always (a BIG BIG BIG) chance that MOST people are not paying for this kind of game AT ALL even if they have played the game for like 3 years, right?

It is kind of subjective, but I don't really put IAP/freemium games in commercial games category, I mean I played games like candy crush, disney tsum2, devilmaker, etc, to the crazy levels without even paying for a bit. To me they are freewares. But since you put them in the same category, then I would have to ask you then. What kind of games do you consider real free games then?

I am just making assumption here, but looking at your "zealous fanatical hate" on cheap games, if I were to  put in your perspective, there is not going to be any REAL free games in game industry in my eyes. If you could even mention some example of REAL free game, then you are creating yourself a paradox......and this bothers me a lot.

Just because something is getting big exposure but not commercial, you can't put something that could be freeware (especially to a really big number of players) into the same category to support the fact you are talking about (that free games will always get beaten by commercial games in term of exposure).

Nice, but you STILL need to charge it correctly. Charging it little in order to have a "bigger" playerbase will only do the making of games a harder thing for your fellow devs, and in the end you're doing a disservice to the whole community because you're preventing people who actually make games as a carreer from, well, eating. When you lower your price you force all your colleagues to lower them as well, and lots of people want to make games full time! So this is unfair for people who do make games for a living. If you decide to settle for a low price -- lower than what it should be for your quality -- then I recommend you simply make it free so you don't harm your fellow devs and prevent awesome games from springing up in the future. This is the curse of the artist. Artists don't want to charge for their work, but without their daily meal their muscles won't have strength to hold a pencil anymore.

AND I find these statements to be kind of .....not sure......err......weird (and offensive).

Why should game devs OR artists that charge less money for their games to be a disservice to the whole community?

And why do you even judge them to be unfair? Do you even know their conditions?

Have you ever at least thought that maybe just maybe, they do that because of the very reason why artist needs their daily meal?

Geez.....not every artist and game dev comes from rich country, and not every artists and game dev comes from countries where games and arts are "recognizable". Are you telling me that games are supposed to be expensive and rich-and-able market consumption only? I thought you hate "circle of evil"(a.k.a capitalism) you were talking about before.......

And on another smaller note: are you telling me that if I charge my RM made games at 20$+ and noone wants to buy my game where I am in BIG need of money to get the "daily meal" you talk a lot about, I should shield up and ignore my hunger, and keep the price up so that I am not becoming "disservice to the whole community"?

I will restate what I said here again:

I haven't seen people put making money and being a commercial dev into a villainous pedestal till now

The irony is, I have seen a LOT of people put making "underpriced" game dev into villainous pedestal lately..........(not just in rpgmakerweb, just go look for "indie game bubble crisis" articles in google, and you will see what I mean).

 

[JosephSeraph]

IAP / Freemium games are commercial models. Most of the revenue comes from a few obsessed users who are snared into shelling out huge amounts of money that end up outprofitting many other commercial models. This is why Candy Crush affords to have advertising. A quick google scan will both prove you that, and show you that the biggest slab of income from the mobile market comes from these commercial models, that outperform priced games many and many more times.

A true free game is something like Aveyond's Ahriman Prophecy, which is free to download, features no advertising nor any in app purchases. a true free game is a game that generates no revenue.

Underpricing IS a well known phenomenon on the art world. That which you say about some artists living in poorer countries or not, well, I am brazilian and the brazilian real is substantially weaker than the dollar. Still, if I am working at an english speaking site, I must conform to the english speaking world prices. My assets will be used in games that will be released on this slab of the market. If I am charging in dollars in a brazilian forum, then I will charge a price that reflects the real. However I won't do that simply because if I do it i starve. There is no condition that justifies undercharging granted that you can charge a fair price, other than unfair competitivity caused by other people that undercharge. It's a snowball effect. If everyone charges a fair price, nobody is forced to undercharge in order to meet that buddy who has no idea what they're doing and is charging peanuts for their work.

Where you come from has no say on the price you charge. If you are on the american marketplace, you charge american prices. RMMV costs ~$80 on Steam. On the brazilian version it costs R$160 (about $42).

A game that gets its artwork comissioned here will be sold on the very same american marketplace, as well, by the way.

And no, I'm not telling you that games are supposed to be expensive and target only rich market. I never excluded the possibility of cheaper, smaller and lower quality games existing. But yes, in order for a marketplace to be healthy, the price of the game MUST be directly proportional to its quality. Want to broaden its reach? Simple: Sales.

And no, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just being serious because this is a serious issue that makes this a very toxic field for many people. Don't take it personally, please.

EDIT: Very good read.

 

[trouble time]

IAP / Freemium games are commercial models. Most of the revenue comes from a few obsessed users who are snared into shelling out huge amounts of money that end up outprofitting many other commercial models. 

The whales as they are called.

And no, I'm not telling you that games are supposed to be expensive and target only rich market. I never excluded the possibility of cheaper, smaller and lower quality games existing. But yes, in order for a marketplace to be healthy, the price of the game MUST be directly proportional to its quality. Want to broaden its reach? Simple: Sales.

But this is where you lose me, the main thing I'd say is that quality is subjective. For example, you couldn't pay me to play Undertale and I think Earthbound is trash. Now that doesn't matter much since there are people that like those games, but what if I was the one that made them? I wouldn't think they're qulity games, I'd think they're rubbish trying to hard to be quirky and likely I wouldn't think they were worth anything.

as for the very good read normally I wouldn't read anything on tumblr, but I skimmed it a bit, and while I don't agree whole-heartedly, I get the sentiment. My problem with it is the idea that one person undercharging will lead to everyone under charging. The price of one game won't change how I value other games, A long time ago I bought Arcana Heart 3 and it was like 30$ compared to Street Fighter 4 I paid 60$ for when I think Arcana Heart is the better game. 

.EDIT: Pricing a game according ro production costs makes more sense though since that isn't subjective or incomperable like the quality of art

 

[Prescott]

JosephSeraph, I understand what you are saying. Someone would rather pay less for a game that is on the same caliber as a game that is more money, and this might force those devs to lower their prices.

We do not mean to take sales from anyone, or make them starve. Our purpose for making the game cheap is so that more people can play it and enjoy it, but we also make some money for our hard work. We don't want to make it free because we would like at least a little bit of revenue, but we don't want to make it super pricey so that more consumers can buy it. We aren't thinking about the developers as much as the consumers, and you may think that is insensitive, but we are making this game for other people to play, not to steal sales or force other developers to lower their games' prices. If that happens, it sucks, but it's not our intention. Our only intention is to make our game available for more people to play, but we want to make money from it as well. Another reason is, I have personally played much more RPG Maker games that cost money, than free ones. I think people expect a quality difference if they are playing a free game or a payed game. So if the game costs SOME money, people expect it to be better than a free game. I do not want the game to be too much money though, and put it below what all of you would pay for it, so that more people can experience it.

 

[metronome]

IAP / Freemium games are commercial models. Most of the revenue comes from a few obsessed users who are snared into shelling out huge amounts of money that end up outprofitting many other commercial models. This is why Candy Crush affords to have advertising. A quick google scan will both prove you that, and show you that the biggest slab of income from the mobile market comes from these commercial models, that outperform priced games many and many more times.

A true free game is something like Aveyond's Ahriman Prophecy, which is free to download, features no advertising nor any in app purchases. a true free game is a game that generates no revenue.

That still doesn't explain why it can't be called "free" for the majority of people who doesn't pay to play this freemium/iap games

I never say you can't put them into commercial category, but you can't deny the fact that some people do not pay to play them at all.

And for someone who claims that time is valuable (like you and me), if you are going to put freemium/iap games in commercial category, then you must also put Ahriman Prophecy into commercial category, don't you think I will have to give my time to play those free,freemium, iap games even if I don't have to pay for it?

I think you are getting me wrong here, all I wanted was you to make confirmation about your claim that commercial games FOR SURE will beat free games. If you put freemium and iap into commercial, then you must put games like ahriman prophecy into commercial too.

If you want to make THAT distinction (money revenue vs non money revenue), you shouldn't have claimed the way you did. IMO. It just comes out too bold and too board and too ambiguous and certainly too judgmental when that claim is announced.....

I guess you explain what you really mean. Case closed.

Underpricing IS a well known phenomenon on the art world. That which you say about some artists living in poorer countries or not, well, I am brazilian and the brazilian real is substantially weaker than the dollar. Still, if I am working at an english speaking site, I must conform to the english speaking world prices. My assets will be used in games that will be released on this slab of the market. If I am charging in dollars in a brazilian forum, then I will charge a price that reflects the real. However I won't do that simply because if I do it i starve. There is no condition that justifies undercharging granted that you can charge a fair price, other than unfair competitivity caused by other people that undercharge. It's a snowball effect. If everyone charges a fair price, nobody is forced to undercharge in order to meet that buddy who has no idea what they're doing and is charging peanuts for their work.

Where you come from has no say on the price you charge. If you are on the american marketplace, you charge american prices. RMMV costs ~$80 on Steam. On the brazilian version it costs R$160 (about $42).

A game that gets its artwork comissioned here will be sold on the very same american marketplace, as well, by the way.

And no, I'm not telling you that games are supposed to be expensive and target only rich market. I never excluded the possibility of cheaper, smaller and lower quality games existing. But yes, in order for a marketplace to be healthy, the price of the game MUST be directly proportional to its quality. Want to broaden its reach? Simple: Sales.

And no, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just being serious because this is a serious issue that makes this a very toxic field for many people. Don't take it personally, please.

R160 for 42USD is good. Seriously. I don't know how many zeroes I have to count for each USD you throw me in exchange for my country's currency.....

Underpricing is a well known phenomenon on the world, as is overpricing. Not just art world. And that doesn't mean underpricing deserve chastise.

You may tell someone that you think he/she is underpricing him/her service/work/product, but chastising him/her for underpricing and telling them that he/she is doing disservice sounds really bad. At least for me. Especially the object we are talking is something subjective (eg. quality).

Let's say you, A, B, and C are artists. 4 of you are selling the same service: full body commission for ...50 USD. Let's just assume that 4 of you are the only artists in your country (or world, whatever). Since quality is matter of subjectivity, I will assume that 4 of you have the same quality of services and results.

After 2 months with no customer at all (happens, you know) and C is the poorest one out of you guys. C lower his price to 30. That makes A and B lower their price to 30 USD too. And then you scold C for underpricing, unfair competition, and doing disservice to the whole "community". Don't you think you are being the unfair one here?

Price is not something decided by the seller only. You gotta learn demand and supply. And if you think that art or game shouldn't follow economy rule because they are abstract(all about quality, irrationality, whatever you call it) , then it is even worse; there will be no real underprice and overprice here. For each art piece you think to be "underpriced" would mean there are at least 1 other to think that art piece to be "overpriced"......I mean, no rule, right?

About localization of market price (american market etc):

Err....that still doesn't justify why must someone be called a disservice etc etc to the community.

If you think someone is underpricing himself, just go tell him what you think without that fanaticism please.

About sales to broaden your reach:

Okay..........charging less is part of sales itself isn't it? Why don't you explain this in details. I think it will also help the OP and I don't want another debate like the one above (exposure in commercial vs free games) reoccurs....>.<

About that good read of yours, I have read it.

If you want my opinion, I will say that I am relieved that you are at least better than that person. Seriously.

He sounds like some mad artists trying to harass (and guilt trip) other artists for selling their service cheaper than his.

Is he saying that if someone is underpriced, we must gang up on the guy and make him an enemy?

Whoa whoa whoa....what is this? Gangster movies?

Is it just me getting it wrong or does he really mean that?

I don't take it personally, and I don't usually participate in long debates, so well I guess I am just in a mood.

It is just that I think you will also need to put yourself in the "opposite side" if you are really serious about that problem.

Blind fanaticism will not solve that.

Again. This is just my opinion. So peace out.

 

[Kes]

Please guys, can we cool this a bit? Let's not get personal and instead keep this polite without name calling. We can disagree without being hostile to the person expressing the view.

 

[bgillisp]

I hate to break it to all of you, but by definition if the game has ANY chance to make money, it is defined as commercial for legal reasons. This has come up time and again on the forums when it comes to using assets, and the official definition is if there is any way to make money (whether it is donate, pay what you want, or the free to play model), it is commercial.