Pen & Paper game adaptations.

[Frostyfirefly]

What do you guys think of Pen & Paper video game adaptations? That is, games like Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, Shadowrun, etc.

Personally, I think they still have a long way to go, design-wise. Some of the more "skilled based" character classes feel pretty weak when they cannot carry out "out of the box thinking" actions, such as climb a tree to carry out an ambush from there, interact with different objects to achieve creative solutions, etc.

Even modern video game adaptations translate some of the most beloved Pen & Paper rpgs as gauntlets where only raw physical or magical power wins the day.

What is your opinion about this controversial subject? 

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Well, I only played adaptations of D&D, didn't play others... but from it, all I can say is that I've still yet to find an enjoyable one...

 

[Frostyfirefly]

Well, I only played adaptations of D&D, didn't play others... but from it, all I can say is that I've still yet to find an enjoyable one...

I know, I think the even the most beloved adaptations based their success on innovation rather than classic, timeless mechanics, like Baldur's Gate, I like that game a lot, but I can clearly point out it's faults (no dual wielding, no climbing, very slow running speed, etc.).

 

[Kaelan]

They haven't been very good, for a variety of reasons which don't really have anything to do with the original Pen & Paper games themselves.

Most games suffer from the problem of trying to invent another game inside D&D. Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate & Icewind Dale all do this. They try to take some of the core ideas from D&D, then shove that into some other game system that has nothing to do with it and...well, it doesn't work very well. Because then you end up with all these weird problems you can't quite handle properly because you've changed the original mechanics in arbitrary ways, so you have to make even more mechanics to "bandage up" those holes and it just ends up being a mess.

Example: If you've only played games like BG and NWN, this may surprise you, but D&D is a turn-based game. Actual Pen and Paper D&D is closer to Final Fantasy Tactics than it is to Neverwinter Nights. What NWN (and games like it) has done is tried to take a system that was entirely designed to be played in a turn-based setting, and shove it into a real-time RPG. The result is now a bunch of the mechanics don't work anymore (i.e. there's no such thing as "turn order" in a real-time game, so Initiative instead of being one of your most important stats, is now useless - and so is every class feature, every feat, every spell and every item associated with it), or don't serve the same purpose. It throws off the entire experience of playing the game, nevermind the game balance.

The only D&D adaptation I've ever played that actually implements the basic combat rules (mostly) correctly is Temple of Elemental Evil. Unfortunately, while they got most of the D&D part right, the rest of the game has a ton of issues, like bugs, crashes and save file corruptions that never got fixed. There's a fan patch for it, but it's still barely playable, and the company that made it doesn't exist anymore.

And that's just combat. That's the easy part (most of the rules are pretty straight-forward). That's without even starting to consider how to handle the more free-form stuff, like jumping, climbing, conversations and all of the other "RP" parts of the game. As you mentioned, that part is pretty hard to do in a game at all. Assassin's Creed is the only game I can think of that has done something close to free-form climbing well - it's a really hard problem. That level of stuff I wouldn't even think of trying until getting the more mundane parts - stats, levels, classes and combat - down first. And like I said, I don't think any game has done a satisfying enough job with that part so far.

I've never played Masquerade, but I heard it did a decent job with the story/conversation part of the game, as well as having open-ended solutions to quests. The combat seems pretty bad, though.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like there will be any good games of this type anytime soon either. The new Neverwinter is terrible (and based on 4th ed. which...is a bad idea). Shadowrun is meh. Project Eternity looks fantastic (graphically), but from what I've heard of what they intend to do with the gameplay, it's going to turn into another version of "let's turn a turn-based game into a real-time RPG and hope it works".

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Example: If you've only played games like BG and NWN, this may surprise you, but D&D is a turn-based game. Actual Pen and Paper D&D is closer to Final Fantasy Tactics than it is to Neverwinter Nights.

exactly, I never played D&D myself but I do know that its more of a tactic style... then I played NWN, and I was like, this battle is so slow to progress... and I also find using spellcasters quite hard on that game...

 

[Frostyfirefly]

That's an excellent post Kaelan, I agree with everything you said about the D&D games.

I recommend Dungeons and Dragons tactics for the PSP, it's also turn based and even has the controversial Psionic classes.

The first Vampire The Masquerade game was amazing in the story department, and combats were decent but had a flaw: frenzy (it's a sort of berserker rage in the game, for those who don't know it, triggered by hunger, anger, etc.). In the Pen and Paper game, frenzy can be really bad or really good depending on the context, terrain, enemies, allies, position, etc. But in the PC game, your frenzied character almost always goes after your teammates, and tries to suck their blood. Still, it's pretty kickass to control a chaingun wielding vampire with celerity activated!

I also heard the second game is even better.

 

[Kaelan]

and I also find using spellcasters quite hard on that game

That's another issue that some of these games have. D&D was created with the idea that you're playing in a group, and all of the classes were balanced with that in mind. So you can have interesting group dynamics, like having your Sorcerer cast Grease to trip a group of enemies, then have your Rogue run over and stab them while they're down (Grease is a reflex save and your Rogue probably never fails those). Or cast Stinking Cloud on top of your Paladin, who is practically immune to it, to stop everyone else near him from doing anything.

In NWN, you play by yourself (or, at most, with a hireling party member whom you can't control directly), so a lot of the combat balance kinda goes out the window and you get problems like that - trying to play low levels with a spellcaster becomes really hard, since you die pretty much as soon as something sneezes at you (and it's real-time, so you don't get to cast crowd-control spells like Grease or Glitterdust before everyone else gets to move - they can walk towards you while you're casting, which is not how it's supposed to work).

 

[Frostyfirefly]

That's another issue that some of these games have. D&D was created with the idea that you're playing in a group, and all of the classes were balanced with that in mind. So you can have interesting group dynamics, like having your Sorcerer cast Grease to trip a group of enemies, then have your Rogue run over and stab them while they're down (Grease is a reflex save and your Rogue probably never fails those). Or cast Stinking Cloud on top of your Paladin, who is practically immune to it, to stop everyone else near him from doing anything.

In NWN, you play by yourself (or, at most, with a hireling party member whom you can't control directly), so a lot of the combat balance kinda goes out the window and you get problems like that - trying to play low levels with a spellcaster becomes really hard, since you die pretty much as soon as something sneezes at you (and it's real-time, so you don't get to cast crowd-control spells like Grease or Glitterdust before everyone else gets to move - they can walk towards you while you're casting, which is not how it's supposed to work).

Actually, in the unpatched version of NWN, you could really dominate with a Sorcerer that used evocation spells. Rest after each fight, and you had all your spells for each battle, of course, you needed a munchkin mentality to fine tune the Sorcerer into an unstoppable killing machine; cast fireball a lot, always cast shield or mager armor after resting, rinse and repeat. I'm currently playing a Ranger, it's much more challenging cause I have to fight up close with sucky AC x_x

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Planescape: Torment

 

[Cozzer]

Planescape: Torment

Although, I think it would have been an even better game if it hadn't been a D&D adaptation and used original mechanics.

 

[Frostyfirefly]

I guess it's pretty obvious from my avatar pic, but I really like Planescape: Torment, however, I do recognize it's many flaws, no climbing, no dual wielding, no swimming, etc., etc.

But the awesome story and different paths / optional routes you can take within it's limitations make it a great game. But it's pretty fascinating how much better it could get with just a bit more depth in it's gameplay mechanics.

Let's see if the spiritual successor is able to surpass it (although, I doubt it).

 

[Milkdud]

I guess it's pretty obvious from my avatar pic, but I really like Planescape: Torment, however, I do recognize it's many flaws, no climbing, no dual wielding, no swimming, etc., etc.

Planescape didn't need any of that. Could it have had better combat? Sure, but that was never the point of the game. And maybe it's me, but I never really saw the Planescape setting as combat heavy as Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.

Let's see if the spiritual successor is able to surpass it (although, I doubt it).

I doubt it too, but when you have Colin McComb as the lead writer, I have faith in the game - plus I'm downloading the Wasteland 2 beta as we speak so we'll see how much faith I'll still have.

I will say this, since Kaelan summed it up pretty well; I love the Infinity Engine games, I think they really captured the chaos of small scale battles incredibly well. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines is one of my favorite games ever, and while the combat does indeed suck, it made more sense (I think at least) to focus on real-time combat since there are were no companions in it (as far as I can recall, gotta replay that). Temple of Elemental Evil's combat is still one of the best I've ever played and it's a shame that Troika never did release proper modding tools for it either.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Although, I think it would have been an even better game if it hadn't been a D&D adaptation and used original mechanics.

Maybe, but without D&D it wouldn't have existed, as Planescape was a D&D setting.

(Also, I would posit Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2 were superior mechanically to The Old Republic and it was very much an adaptation of D20 Star Wars (though much much more edited than the versions used for the D&D games))

 

[Shades]

What do you guys think of Pen & Paper video game adaptations? That is, games like Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, Shadowrun, etc.

Personally, I think they still have a long way to go, design-wise. Some of the more "skilled based" character classes feel pretty weak when they cannot carry out "out of the box thinking" actions, such as climb a tree to carry out an ambush from there, interact with different objects to achieve creative solutions, etc.

Even modern video game adaptations translate some of the most beloved Pen & Paper rpgs as gauntlets where only raw physical or magical power wins the day.

What is your opinion about this controversial subject? 

The medium itself limits what you can do with P&P adaptations quite a bit. I personally still think they are an excellent approach to game design, but maybe that's just because I'm an RPG nut. There are things you can do to capture aspects of the core experience, and breaking down the systems those games are built on helps ferret out what is good and bad with the game design. It gives the developer a chance to improve on those things, if approached correctly. 

After I finish with the tutorials I'm currently working through, I plan to attempt a couple of of games based on P&P titles to further develop my skills with RPG Maker.

I agree, though... as commercial titles they do seem to have a long way to go. I did love me some Pool of Radiance back in the day, so some of them get it more or less right. More often than not, the developer seems to get lazy or rushed and breaks the game in horrible ways.