Allusion

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I replied to a topic similar to this one on the other RPG maker forum, so I'm just going to post it here~ :)


People hate something because it's popular to hate that something; the same as when people like something just because someone else likes it, and it starts a trend/viral video/etc. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these people knew why they hated it. If you asked, they'd probably regurgitate the last thing their friend said, while offering no real opinions of their own.


They feel somehow validated to say 'Oh if it's made in RM it must suck'. The real trick for this (to me) is like; okay, if you don't like it, then delete it. Quietly. Why'd you have to make a public post about it, then go to the game's topic and 'call it out'? To get likes, favs, and attention, I imagine. I've made tons of purchases with games and music and software I disliked, yet I never felt the need to post about it to every board that would allow it. It shows what the poster is really after. 


It seems pretty much everything self made gets discredited and picked at for a long while before it's accepted. Indie games, (RM or not), self published books, original albums, self made movies, etc...it's all been laughed at. On the whole, they still are, no matter how many sweeping successes are made in each category. Certain mindframes are just difficult to put to rest, and needing a publisher or studio to validate a person's work is one more drop in the bucket. v__v


Somehow, a program that should empower people due to it's wide access and ease of use gets diluted to a point of disabling people. More like they disable themselves. Whenever something comes along that puts a crack in the barrier that separates those who've 'made it' from those who have not, it's like people try their hardest to seal it up again.


What I wonder is what such people are hoping for. Do they think a developer is going to post a 2 and a half year project up, see the first comment that says, 'This is RM STAY WAY its trash' and think, 'Huh, they're right.'? While comments like that affect some people, on the whole, a person who's committed as much time, effort, and energy as it takes to properly make use of RM is sticking with RM, regardless of what trolls like that say. 


Trolls like that sure have a lot of time to waste. 
 

Missile

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Somehow, a program that should empower people due to it's wide access and ease of use gets diluted to a point of disabling people. More like they disable themselves. Whenever something comes along that puts a crack in the barrier that separates those who've 'made it' from those who have not, it's like people try their hardest to seal it up again.

The irony of democratization, make something to take down boundaries, boundaries get remade anyhow. It's still better that the first boundary is gone, though.


That said, some of them do have points, as RM games usually have more shared limitations/drawbacks than other engines. Game Maker has it's 30fps issue (which can be bypassed), Unity has it's own asset flipping drama, etc. But RM's have also been numerous until very recently. Pile that onto the asset flip stigma, and you get a perfect storm target for rage.


It'd be interesting to see how many of those people have To The Moon in their steam libraries, though.
 
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Allusion

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...But RM's have also been numerous until very recently. Pile that onto the asset flip stigma, and you get a perfect storm target for rage.


It'd be interesting to see how many of those people have To The Moon in their steam libraries, though.






 



^ Exactly. No one is trying to claim that RM is the 'best engine on planet Earth'. We're just trying to show what we've done with it, and see if people are interested based on the effort and mechanics we've put into it. The issue happens when, as stated in the OP, a person acknowledges this effort, possibly even admits to having an interest in said project, and still decides to downvote because it's an RPG Maker game. 


And this is coming from someone on Steam. A platform littered with trashy, troll-games that are broken and unfinished. Yet those games still get passed Greelight.


But an RM game, that isn't broken, that isn't a troll, and has a developer trying their best? Nah, brah. Not here.


Here's Airplane Simulator instead. *eye roll*
 

AwesomeCool

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^ Exactly. No one is trying to claim that RM is the 'best engine on planet Earth'. We're just trying to show what we've done with it, and see if people are interested based on the effort and mechanics we've put into it. The issue happens when, as stated in the OP, a person acknowledges this effort, possibly even admits to having an interest in said project, and still decides to downvote because it's an RPG Maker game. 


And this is coming from someone on Steam. A platform littered with trashy, troll-games that are broken and unfinished. Yet those games still get passed Greelight.


But an RM game, that isn't broken, that isn't a troll, and has a developer trying their best? Nah, brah. Not here.


Here's Airplane Simulator instead. *eye roll*



That is why people should ignore people like these.


They are not being reasonable, so why expect them to listen to reason?  They do not care what you think, how good/bad your game is, or even if you are actually reading there post (although they would benefit more from being taken seriously), they are only doing it to take out there frustration on someone.


In matter of fact, there are only two possible outcomes for combating there points:

  1. You get frustrated and have a bad day for paying attention to what they said.
  2. You say something irrational out of anger and it comes back to bite you in the butt.

So I will say again, why bother? You will gain nothing from even listening to them and it is of there benefit if you reply to them.  Just move on and ignore them.


I know that having something you worked hard on for a long time being mocked by anyone is hurtful and hard to not want to defend.  But by trying to defend your work from this irrational hatred, you are bringing in negativity into your life, you are bringing stress upon yourself and by taking there point seriously, you are rewarding them for doing so.


Also, they probably have and never will make a game of there own nor do they really care. After all, they would rather see you suffer and quit instead of making a game themselves.


tl;dr: If irrational hatred is thrown at you, ignore it (may, no, will take work to do so) as you cannot rationalize with irrational behavior.
 
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Matseb2611

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In this day and age when so many engines have been designed to make game-making easier, there really is no reason to code your own engine from scratch. Of course nothing wrong with those who do it, but the whole elitism surrounding the use of already made and user-friendly engines is just absurd. The engine is merely a set of tools, and to make a good game even in RPG maker or any other engine where no programming is needed still requires a tonne of time, money, and hard work. Why waste time reinventing the wheel when it's already been done, tested, and ready to form the base of your game? Why not spend this time concentrating on stuff that actually matters, such as story, world-building, and fun gameplay.


In short, ignore anyone who looks down on your game because you didn't code it from scratch. You'll likely accomplish a lot more than these people who, for some reason, prefer to take the long way round to achieve the same goal.
 

Kyuukon

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I laughed at: "you actually coded your own engine and framework for" xD
 

Niten Ichi Ryu

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I wonder if this guy is actually browsing the web with Firefox or Chrome (or lol IE). Such laziness, he should code his own web browser. I'm sure he even use windows, or worst think himself cool because he uses linux. Cheeky bast*rd, can't even code his own OS.
 

Sausage_Boi

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"well, you didn't program it yourself. You used an engine. I won't play that. Please excuse me while I shell out $60 for the newest AAA game that runs on the UNREAL ENGINE. or USES HAVOC. or any other number of games that weren't built from scratch and still demand my $60. I will gladly pay a corporation buying licenses from other corporations to play the same drivel they've been producing every year, but when I see an indie developer doing what (s)he loves, well, **** that! It looks like you put a lot of effort and time and love. But Imma go give my money to another unoriginal game and encourage them to make the same garbage that we gamers ***** about all the damn time."


If I could make good art, music, write stories AND code, I would certainly look into making my own game from scratch. As it is, I can barely do any of them to a degree that I would call "competent". And I certainly don't know anybody who can do more than 2 on a level of greatness that exceeds that of an amateur.


The other thing I have noticed, and it really kind of gets under my skin, is most of the people laying down the hate, have NOTHING. They don't create a flakkin' thing except drama. I want to put a game on Steam one day, and I KNOW they are gonna crawl outta the woodwork to slam the RM game. I have thought long about what my hypothetical reply might be (not sure if it's petty?), and it would be something like: "Thanks for commenting! I am sorry you have such a low opinion of RM games, however, I can't take your opinion very seriously unless you are a fellow Designer/Developer, who knows just what kind of effort and hard work goes into making any kind of game. Even a simple flash game requires a lot of work. Do you have any games we might peruse and compare? With such a low opinion of RM games, perhaps you have built something better? Now, unless you have some real criticism about the meat of the game (bad art, music, buggy, etc.) please do the Internet a favor, and save the flames." Lol, I don't think I would ever REALLY post that. It would probably just be a 'thanks' or 'Ok' and move on. lol
 

Niten Ichi Ryu

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Here's a reply for that dude:


To XXXX, no offense your reply looks educated enough, I can see you’ve put more effort into it than the basic person trolling RPG maker.


Even more than txt speech, or analphabetic criticism, I personally feel that trying to sound pompous and pretentious when criticizing someone’s effort and post the review on steam is like writing a post on IGN and consider yourself a journalist.


It’s fine to use your brain to write reviews or advice on Greenlight, try to flatter your ego as having an actual opinion on game making, but this is not on the same level as actually bringing a coherent and developed argumentation on what you reproach to RPG Maker, and showing by example what you consider game making. Great to have an opinion on game engines, but not the same sort of thing that you can read from anyone else having a self-made opinion on game making coming from reading to many pseudo professional game maker articles on dodgy websites.


Again, it looks like you were trying to hide the fact that you despise what I did by writing in a relatively educated way, but I never consider simple clichés on game engines as constructive criticism. Those are the rules I live by.
 
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kaukusaki

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don't worry about blockheads like that dude. I had a fellow programmer diss me because I use a rapid development kit (that's what I call all the makers), and we had a client that wanted a game done in a week. I cranked it out in RM while he hard coded his. I knocked it out in a few days and made it pretty while he was still at it and throwing money at artists for the project. I got the job (and client liked that the game was super cute. bonus).


don't let the haters sweat you. these days, almost all the programmers I know worth their salt use RDK's these days. (I know a crazy crew that still make Klik N Play jump through hoops to this day. They're still patching it for newer systems). Anyways, we programmers use RDK's so we have time to sleep. If it weren't for me using RM all those years on various systems cranking out better-playing DnD games (lolz, I'm showing my age), I now wouldn't be slinging code for Nintendo and Microsoft.


Remember 3 tips:


1) Make a game you want to play. if you have fun, so will we.


2) Don't worry about length. Just make the game.


3) Don't worry about being the next big thing. Games get popular randomly. Yours might be next.
 

Marsigne

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"Thanks for commenting! I am sorry you have such a low opinion of RM games, however, I can't take your opinion very seriously unless you are a fellow Designer/Developer, who knows just what kind of effort and hard work goes into making any kind of game. Even a simple flash game requires a lot of work. Do you have any games we might peruse and compare? With such a low opinion of RM games, perhaps you have built something better? Now, unless you have some real criticism about the meat of the game (bad art, music, buggy, etc.) please do the Internet a favor, and save the flames."

That's the best response ever. If I see it somewhere I'd be like :o
 

Tsukihime

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" To XXXX, no offense, your game looks decent enough and I can see you've put more effort into it than many RPG-Maker projects, but it is an RPG-Maker project.


Even more than Unreal and Unity, I personally feel that making something in RPG Maker and then putting it up on a professional storefront is like selling microwaved pizza pockets and claiming you're a restaurant.


It's fine to use something like RPG maker to learn and grow your skills, put forth some projects for a portfolio as you walk the path of becoming a true game developer, but they are themselves not on the same level as hand-crafted games you actually coded your own engine and framework for. Great to post on free game sites like Itch.io, but not the sort of thing to put forth as a game on Steam. Again, it looks good and shows talent, but I never upvote RPG-Maker, Unity Asset Flips, or Mobile Ports. Them's my rules I live by"


How do you bypass this bias? 



"Thank you for your feedback. I will share your feedback with the internet. Have a nice day."


Except if you were NOT making ANY sales, and ALL of the reasons were "it's too RM" .


Then you should be concerned, because that bias is directly affecting your sales.


As for bypassing RM bias, you can minimize how RM the game feels.


If you're using default assets that screams RM, then people will pick up on it.


But if you use custom assets and package it in a different way, it may not be immediately obvious.


However, as far as I'm concerned, every 2D game in existence looks like it could have been made in RPG Maker anyways.
 
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atasuke10

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"Thank you for your feedback. I will share your feedback with the internet. Have a nice day."


Except if you were NOT making ANY sales, and ALL of the reasons were "it's too RM" .


Then you should be concerned, because that bias is directly affecting your sales.


As for bypassing RM bias, you can minimize how RM the game feels.


If you're using default assets that screams RM, then people will pick up on it.


But if you use custom assets and package it in a different way, it may not be immediately obvious.


However, as far as I'm concerned, every 2D game in existence looks like it could have been made in RPG Maker anyways.

 for the longest time I thought undertale was an RM game :D
 

Joewoof

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Undertale being such a phenomenon is actually good for RPG Maker games without actually being one. I'm sure it made quite a number of skeptical converts regardless.


Speaking of coding from scratch, I ran across an RPG on Greenlight the other day that is coded from scratch, but uses free-license RPG tilesets that were made for RPG Maker. It's a bit of sad story since, as a professional programmer, I know how time-consuming doing something like that is, only to be shot down by the crowd that shoved his game along with the RPG Maker hate. It's sad that visuals matter more than actual mechanics in the public eye, which more often than not leads to really ****ty games that just look nice.
 
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The Mighty Palm

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I think the root of the problem lies with how similar Rpg maker games look and feel. The issue with "anybody" being able to make a game is that people who are young and inexperienced, impatient, or even people trying to get rich quick will try to jump the shark and put their unpolished game up for sale. There are many good games. But for the uninitiated, they look similar to the poorly made ones on first glance. It just doesn't catch their eye and they scroll past it. 
People that don't like Dragon Quest might glance over Chrono Trigger even though the two are vastly different. Little you can do about that.
 

Niten Ichi Ryu

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@The Mighty Palm it's a bit too easy to reduce this to the old "some do 'em good, some do 'em bad, and the one doing bad give all a bad name" that is classic when seeing basic RPG Maker rants, and that some may like RM games, some may not. So no, that's in no way the "root" of the problem... Lazy game devs that abuse the system are neither a reason nor an excuse to bash gratuitously on a tool or a dev. But here, it's not about the tool. it's about the devs.


What we are dealing here is nastier as it is the expression of a smug sense of superiority backed up by no claims or no show of experience. it's purely and simply an insult to all amateur devs using tools, as he include even Unity or unreal, and puts everyone at the same level, considering any RM game no better than a Unity asset flipper.


To follow on the very insulting food related comparison he made, what you said is like saying: "anyone can make a sandwich and sell it, and some might make and sell ****ty sandwiches, but hey there are still some good sandwiches, and those who know sandwiches can recognize the good ones".


what this guy said to the dev is actually : " mmh... you went to subway and bought a sandwich for lunch, and it does look really good, but I'm going to look down on you based on my principles that the only food worth it is something you cooked at home and brought for lunch" (we all have these kind of pricks at work canteens) whichh is thus even more ridiculous, because even when home cooked, rotten meat and overcooked pasta will still make a ****ty bolognese dish. The same way a self coded engine can be totally wrong in terms of framework mechanics implementation.
 
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SamJones

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I used to be active in 3D art, specifically Poser. Which is a program where you can arrange and modify pre-made 3D models to make images and animations. It also has a large and active community making assets (and assets for assets) for it. You could regularly see people talking down Poser artists as "not real artists" because they did not create everything from scratch. The reminder always was that neither did photographers and last I looked photography was an art still. Neither did they like it called to attention that professional 3D artists (meaning those who actually earned their living with it) tend to love pre-made stuff. It allows them to meet costs and tight deadlines.
 

bluebird

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Personally, seeing RPGmaker games on Steam Greenlight always make me curious. I've seen and played RPGmaker games and I'm always looking to see what unique parts are brought to the table with new creations. Folks who put in unique artwork, sprites, and gameplay mechanics are the ones I keep tabs on.


I wonder if folks like these have even messed around with RPGmaker before. Yeah, it makes programming a game a lot easier, but it doesn't go into all the time and effort to get the game to do what you want. Scripting, events, variables- I've cracked my brain on tutorials just learning how to do these and getting stuck on why something isn't working right. Making or commissioning custom content is a pain in its own, and building a strong story is the hardest of all. It takes a lot of work, regardless of whether you use RPGmaker to help you or not.
 

amerk

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To be quite blunt, I prefer a lot of the newer RM games over newer console games, and Steam makes it a lot easier to pay for the ones I want. Maybe I'm just too old school for newer consoles, but I'd say for every 1 console game I play these days, I've played at least a half dozen RM games (both commercial and non).
 

bgillisp

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@Amerk: I feel the same way! Some of the best games I've played these days are RM games. Most of the console games I have played though is another game that focused on pretty graphics and forgot to put a good game underneath.
 

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