Percentage vs Hard Numbers Dilemma

Frostorm

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So I've recently switched to Utility Scaling in my game and ran into a slight issue. The spell effects in my game were percentage-based. For example, Inner Fire would increase Strength and Intellect by 25%, and Arrow to the Knee would reduce Speed by 50%. But switching to Utility Scaling meant I had to change these to hard numbers to avoid the double scaling/quadratic effect. That's all fine and good, but the issue I have is when dealing with the Speed stat. Speed in my game dictates how many tiles a unit can move, so 0 Speed would mean they can't move at all. That's why skills with a Slow effect reduce Speed by 50% and skills with a Snare effect reduce Speed by 100%. If I use hard numbers, this mechanic stops working. Now, I've thought of a few solutions:
  1. Use hard numbers for positive/beneficial states & percentages for negative/detrimental states
  2. Use Hybrid Scaling instead of pure Utility Scaling (retains the use of percentages throughout)
  3. Keep pure Utility Scaling but... (edit: I don't like the idea of hybrid bonuses)
    • Use hybrid bonuses for positive/beneficial states (hard #s + %s)
    • Use only percentages for negative/detrimental states
  4. Use hard numbers for all stats except Speed
    • Use percentages for Speed
Unless anyone can think of another solution? I'm open to ideas, but I'm not willing to change how my Speed stat functions in regards to movement.

I'm leaning towards option 1... (edit: no longer leaning towards option 1 lol)
Here's a better explanation of option 2:
Using Hybrid Scaling, Stoneskin increases Constitution by 50% + (Intellect ÷ 10)%. <- Notice how it still uses percentages, but it has a base amount + a portion that scales with a stat.
 
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ATT_Turan

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Why don't you just have effects on Speed work off of percentages while the rest of them use the values you like?

Or simply have a minimum value for Speed that you can't debuff lower than (which seems like it would be desirable for all of the stats anyway, do you want your characters to be able to get 0 or negative Strength?).
 

Frostorm

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Why don't you just have effects on Speed work off of percentages while the rest of them use the values you like?
Yes, I considered this as well. But wouldn't the inconsistency look/feel weird? Especially when you have a skill that buffs Speed for example. (edit: I added your suggestion though)

Or simply have a minimum value for Speed that you can't debuff lower than (which seems like it would be desirable for all of the stats anyway, do you want your characters to be able to get 0 or negative Strength?).
The only logical minimum I'd set would be "0" so that skills that Snare would immobilize the target. I'm not sure how setting a minimum would solve this issue though. Oh, YEP_BaseParamControl also has minimums in place for the stats as well, which is set at 0.
 
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ATT_Turan

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Yes, I considered this as well. But wouldn't the inconsistency look/feel weird?
I shouldn't think so. I've played other games that, in different areas of the game, modify numbers by both percentages and static values, and it's never felt weird.

If you think they're going to look too similar and be confusing, you can always word them differently (i.e. "Enrage grants 20% Strength," and "Haste grants +10 Speed"). But I think you're overthinking it...do whatever makes your game mechanically sound, and your players will learn the system as they play.

For that matter, unless your game is particularly tactical, and you're marketing it to that audience, plenty of the players just aren't going to look that closely at the text of your skills anyway.
 

MushroomCake28

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I'm with ATT_Turan, using percentage scaling for speed while using flat numbers for other parameters is totally fine and not weird for me.

Another solution would using all percentage but making it so they don't buff each other's buff, or debuff each other's debuff. So if you have skill A that does Atk +50% and skill B that does Atk +50%, the total bonus will be Atk +100% instead of +125% (achieved by doing 1.5 * 1.5).
 

Frostorm

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Another solution would using all percentage but making it so they don't buff each other's buff, or debuff each other's debuff. So if you have skill A that does Atk +50% and skill B that does Atk +50%, the total bonus will be Atk +100% instead of +125% (achieved by doing 1.5 * 1.5).
Yes, I totally agree with you there. I've already made it so they're additive instead of multiplicative. Well, since you guys don't find the inconsistency weird, then I'll prolly go that route and make Speed use percentages and have the other stats use hard numbers.

Btw, for the multiplicative -> additive thing, it was as easy as changing the param formula to:
(base + plus) * (paramRate + flat)
Then making sure all states that affect said params use tags like <atk Flat: +5> for example.

For that matter, unless your game is particularly tactical, and you're marketing it to that audience, plenty of the players just aren't going to look that closely at the text of your skills anyway.
It's actually a tactical RPG lol.:kaoswt:
 
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gstv87

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the same response I always give: percentage changes depending on the total.
if the total increases with the level system, changing the output to match effectively renders levels irrelevant.

when you're a kid and your mom gives you a pair of shoes, they don't stretch to match your feet into adulthood.
you buy a new pair of shoes every time your feet grow in size.
this, is the same: if a skill becomes too weak for the new batch of enemies for the new level, you don't stretch the skill's capabilities, you make a new skill altogether.
 

HumanNinjaToo

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I would also agree that the inconsistency wouldn't be too weird, considering it sounds like speed has a fairly different function than the other stats since it controls range of movement. I think it would be even less weird if the speed stat is dealing with smaller numbers, i.e. 5 speed = 5 movement squares; it would be pretty straightforward in giving a unit a -1 speed debuff and then seeing their movement reduced by 1 as well.
 

Frostorm

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the same response I always give: percentage changes depending on the total.
if the total increases with the level system, changing the output to match effectively renders levels irrelevant.
The problem is, I can't ensure a skill that's supposed to immobilize a target will actually do so if I use hard numbers instead of percentages for Speed. The same thing applies to Slow effects (-50% Speed). The issue was the inconsistency if I made the skill effects use hard numbers (for the other stats) since hard numbers would simply not work for Speed.
 

Dororo

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Super robot wars do the hybrid thing since 20 years and no one complained.
Attack strenght grow is % based, speed is plain. Increase +3 Movement or increase +25% Attack strenght.
In your inverse case, I'll prompt players that "speed is reduced by half" and that's all - it look more a perception issue on your side than actual ergonomy issue.
 
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ATT_Turan

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The problem is, I can't ensure a skill that's supposed to immobilize a target will actually do so if I use hard numbers instead of percentages for Speed.
Why not? I know I don't know what your code is like, but your problems sound strange to me :p

If you want a specific skill to immobilize, then why doesn't that specific skill reduce Speed by 100%? Or apply a state to the target that prevents it from moving, regardless of its actual Speed.

It's like you have the mindset that all of the skills have to use numbers in the same way, and I can't fathom why that would be true. Make immobilize reduce by 100%, make everything else affecting Speed work off of values so you don't accidentally immobilize...what's the problem?
 

Frostorm

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Doesn't it look weird if Speed is the only stat that's being modified in a percentage manner while the other stats are modified using hard numbers? Functionally I have no issues with that. It's just the aesthetic inconsistency that bugs me.
 

ATT_Turan

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Doesn't it look weird if Speed is the only stat that's being modified in a percentage manner while the other stats are modified using hard numbers? Functionally I have no issues with that. It's just the aesthetic inconsistency that bugs me.
You asked that above and had a few people say no ;) I mean, off the very top of my head, I play Sins of a Solar Empire which is a strategy game that modifies some things by hard values and others by percentages. It's just how the system works.
Especially for something as very obvious as "This has to work differently or it'll be too easy to break your movement range," I don't know why you think players are going to be nitpicking about an inconsistency here.

In Shining Force, all of your other stats would increase as you level up but Movement only changes with unique items (because just like your system, it controls how much they move). I never heard anyone wailing about the inconsistency of that.

XCOM has some skills and items affect accuracy by a percent and other things affect damage by a value. I've never read a single review or comment saying they think that's inconsistent.
 

Frostorm

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Lol, I guess it's just my OCD, guess I'll just ignore the inconsistency then.:kaophew:
 

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