Pixel Madness 2013

[Ksi]

Yeah, but it's quite easy to say such when you're not the one in the hotseat. :/


If I'd had time I would have joined in but alas, babies and sitting and other things tend to get in the way, so... Guess we just have to deal with what we've got.


So! Why not just jump into the next round with a 'No Franken' sign and watch where the chips fall?

 

[BILL_NYE_THO]

I have to admit, Des has an excellent point.

 

[Jayshr]

I still dunno why this blew up like it did... Or at the very least we could have waited to see who made it to the first round. x_x It's like complaing about horses in a race before they've even left the gate properly. The winner isn't winning $5,000,000 or anything... There was mention of the sprites created being usable by the community... :/ I just don't see why it was worth destroying a whole contest meant for fun.

In fact, I think excluding franken sprites wouldn't have fixed much. You'd still have the same chances of someone just taking sprites from lesser known sources to submit as their own entry. x_x I've seen enough of it in art contests, so this wouldn't be much of an exception. At least with frankensprites they're more easily identifyable as such...?

I got a little miffed because I made my entry from scratch, but I figured like some others that once the themes came around the sprites would get more original/adventurous... >.<

 

[Lunarea]

Or maybe the problem is that treating art as some sort of elitist club discourages people from even trying.

Plenty of people start with editing/frankenspriting/whatever and go on to create original works that are good.

And not all of them want to stick around or come back to a community that made them feel their early attempts were stupid and worthless.

 

[Ksi]

I got a little miffed because I made my entry from scratch, but I figured like some others that once the themes came around the sprites would get more original/adventurous... >.<

This. So much this.

 

[dw817]

Agreed. Creativity should be encouraged. And - that's not too far from the truth, whereas Frankensprites can lead to unique ability, so with an artist do they start with coloring books and eventually start filling in details that aren't in the original.

Years ago I had to draw all my images, sprites, clip-art, etc. cause there weren't any out there to suit my own projects. I learned by looking at other images I couldn't use - and drew my own that did. Today ? There must be a million videogame images out on the net if not more. With these kinds of odds - what is considered original today ?

The point is it's easy to find fault in others' works and you say, 'you copied this' etc. if you are of that mindset - but compassion and integrity can find excellence and dedication in those same works where it is merited.

Let us not be so harsh to judge poorly that which where hard work, perseverance, and originality were accomplished.

 

[Des]

Or maybe the problem is that treating art as some sort of elitist club discourages people from even trying.

Plenty of people start with editing/frankenspriting/whatever and go on to create original works that are good.

And not all of them want to stick around or come back to a community that made them feel their early attempts were stupid and worthless.

agreed completely!!

but maybe a tournament-style competition ("best of the best" implication) isn't the best place for these people to share these early attempts.

edit:

or more accurately, maybe the question of frankensprites should have been answered by the staff when it was originally brought up, instead of letting everybody make their own conclusions about the rules of the contest.

bill nye asked the question on the first page of this topic, and the only response he got, which clearly was against the idea, was from evileagles, who isn't even staff.

 

[Gomi Boy]

There were a couple of poor-quality sprites up for consideration while the forum was still open, and these were visibly the result of earnest effort despite their flaws. Candid critique on these early attempts is vastly more useful to the creator than anything any of us can say about a frankensprite. Frankensprites are good for use in a game, and they can be a good supplementary practice for people who are learning by example, but there isn't much to be gained from displaying them.


e: And yeah, virtually all of this could have been avoided by setting clearer guidelines to begin with. While the issue of politeness in critique is an easy smokescreen (and I invite anyone to recall what I was saying about earnestly-made sprites while the forums were still up and tell me that I was out of line), this really only boils down to that.

 

[Espon]

I don't really see the issue with edits or frankensprites.  If someone wants to enter one then fine, they'll just likely get knocked out in the elimination round or within the first couple tourney rounds.  In an ideal setting we would have at least 16 entries that were completely custom, however it looked like we were having a difficult time getting at least 16 entries.  If this contest is successful, perhaps more people will be interested for the next one.  If I had more time I would of loved to enter to get a shot at one of the prizes.

If the contest was to be reopened, I think it might be a good idea to hide the current total results and disable comments.  All people really need to see is the average score once voting is over.  If they want to discuss or give criticism on the entries they could do it in a different thread.  It's easy to form a biased opinion if you all you read was bashing before voting.

 

[Lunarea]

@Des:

[but maybe a tournament-style competition ("best of the best" implication) isn't the best place for these people to share these early attempts.

And why not, exactly?

If this competition is about talent ("best of the best"), that talent will show consistently - especially as the challenges grow. If the competition is about fun and challenge, this is independent from level of proficiency. If this competition is about creativity, that will still shine through whatever medium is used.

Why is it so offensive to see someone jump to participate in the contest, even if they have little experience?

@Mawk:

What exactly makes you an expert in deciding how someone learns art and how they should be learning art? And what gives you the certainty that your candid critique on a poorly done sprite is more helpful than someone else's encouragement and support of a creative but-not-completely-original sprite?

 

[Gomi Boy]

I'm no expert, but what I say stems from everything I've ever read or experienced with regard to the learning process. If your experiences are different, by all means share them!

 

[Ksi]

On one hand, reading and looking at stuff can give you a good headstart in your own experience, but on the other hand, experience is really the best teacher. I guess those who actually do spriting would be best to give feedback since they actually have the experience. Barring that, someone with a little knowledge is next best.

 

[Jayshr]

Tournament doesn't necessarily mean best of the best... just missing the deadline could eliminate you regardless of spriting skill. I'd think it was more a test of persistence/creativity in that regard. :/

Critique is one thing, but out right saying "this is a recolor/frankensprite, ur a terrible person this is terrible" isn't critique. :/    There's always something constructive to be said, and frankensprites are no exception. Just the way the pieces are put together could be commented on. ie: "His colorscheme matches well..." " I can see you wanted to give the impression of royalty with this combination." Entering contests is a good place to learn about your style, what others are doing around you, and can be a more fun and interesting way of getting your work out there/growing. Not everyone gets what they need out of "is my sprite suck/improve my art" threads :/

If the frankensprites were so terrible/not allowed they probably wouldn't have been uploaded in the first place.

If you didn't want the frankensprites to win, all you'd have to do is not vote for them. That's the miracle of voting. But demanding an artistic mandate is kinda cruel. Especially after everyone had submitted their entries. Discussion could have been had between the qualifier and the first round, and like was mentioned before, if new rules like "no frankensprites" were necessary it could have been worked out then. >.<

Finally, as an artist myself, I want to say that when you enter a contest or participate in anything subjectivity based, you should have confidence enough in your own skill to let it stand on its own. You shouldn't have to use words or complaints to bring others down. Not that I believe heavily in such things but things have a way of working things out. :/

 

[Lunarea]

@Mawk:

They are, both personally and from observation.

Some people learn better and faster by immediately doing everything from scratch by themselves. Other people learn better through observation and modeling. Having something like RTP and knowing your finished product is supposed to look like the RTP is like a safety net. You know what you're checking your work against and you're learning how to make your attempt fit. Gradually, people from the second group move toward doing things from scratch, too. The rest of the process is just practice, practice, practice.

I think that both ways of learning can and should be acknowledged. We should be encouraging people to want to keep trying and keep pushing forward, rather than focusing on how they're going about it.

 

[Sailerius]

Thats because the style is useable. Show me one style from anyone else, yourself included that has a useable base number of sprites.

Mack.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Mack.

Yay, we've named one. (Granted I think its ugly, uglier than VX RTP for that matter).

 

[Gomi Boy]

If you didn't want the frankensprites to win, all you'd have to do is not vote for them. That's the miracle of voting.

I've mentioned this before, but the forum software presents a bit of difficulty here. It's impossible to change your vote after the fact, meaning that if you're impressed by a sprite at first and then later learn that it's a frankensprite you're stuck with your first, more favourable vote. If there were a way of getting around this limitation, or if frankensprites were all labelled as such so there wasn't any confusion, I'd be down for their inclusion in this tournament.


As it stands, they represent an unfair pressure on the people who are actually spriting. If you're making a sprite more or less from scratch, you have to work much harder to create an RTP-quality sprite than someone who's just taken two RTP elements and pasted them together, and without any kind of transparency they both give exactly the same first impression. Meaning that the method that takes other's people's work is by far the more advantageous.

 

[Jayshr]

I've mentioned this before, but the forum software presents a bit of difficulty here. It's impossible to change your vote after the fact, meaning that if you're impressed by a sprite at first and then later learn that it's a frankensprite you're stuck with your first, more favourable vote. If there were a way of getting around this limitation, or if frankensprites were all labelled as such so there wasn't any confusion, I'd be down for their inclusion in this tournament.

As it stands, they represent an unfair pressure on the people who are actually spriting. If you're making a sprite more or less from scratch, you have to work much harder to create an RTP-quality sprite than someone who's just taken two RTP elements and pasted them together, and without any kind of transparency they both give exactly the same first impression. Meaning that the method that takes other's people's work is by far the more advantageous.

I think I see what you mean, but again it was the qualifying round. You apparently thought it looked worth what you rated it before you found out how it was made. If anything it makes you more aware how you would vote on others. But just because you gave that person a vote you retroactively didn't want to, doesn't mean that person automatically wins the contest.

I don't think there are any unfair pressures. Heck, competing in larger contests or competing for jobs is more pressure. If anything, it would push the people making by hand to go further than they ever have if they want to stand out. It would do more to push the desire for more creativity/lessRTP-ish work than to force restrictions. :c

Not to get all childish, but it's like the story of the Tortoise and the Hare. If the person is really taking shortcuts to get a head, it eventually catches up to them. :/ A contest is about YOUR effort and YOUR preserverence despite the competition's atmosphere, not what your opponents are doing. That's a surefire way to lose in the firstplace.

 

[Gomi Boy]

Not to get all childish, but it's like the story of the Tortoise and the Hare. If the person is really taking shortcuts to get a head, it eventually catches up to them. :/

People keep tossing out platitudes to this effect, but I have yet to hear a realistic scenario where this happens.


I'm also a little perturbed that in your post you straight-out admitted that it put a great deal of pressure on people spriting by hand while allowing frankenspriters to coast through, and apparently didn't even notice. You do know why this isn't the sort of dichotomy you want in an organized competition, right?

 

[Jayshr]

People keep tossing out platitudes to this effect, but I have yet to hear a realistic scenario where this happens.

I'm also a little perturbed that in your post you straight-out admitted that it put a great deal of pressure on people spriting by hand while allowing frankenspriters to coast through, and apparently didn't even notice. You do know why this isn't the sort of dichotomy you want in an organized competition, right?

 It wasn't able to get to a scenario where it happened because.... GASP ... it wasn't allowed to get to that point....? :/ Seems like a kind of catch22...

A great deal of pressure =/= unfair pressure. I believe that was what you said? Unfair pressure would be, oh, I dunno."Create a sprite in 2 seconds, but it has to be 999pxx999px with a palette of at least 256 colors with no face or discernable anatomy but it cannot contain any sharp corners." "Put in a bit more effort than usual" isn't.

Again, I could understand your frustration if there were more at stake in the competition... It's not like the Hungergames. >.> You aren't going to die if you lose, or anything. I do believe, or I'd HOPE to believe, that this competition was started more as an excuse for fun, activity and creativity. Most of the people would end up with participatory awards. The contest was already hard to start for lack of participants. If there were people not allowed to try for "qualification" because frankensprites kicked them out or took up slots (which I'm sure was unlimited to start) I could understand better. If we got to 2nd round and everything was a frankensprite, I could understand better. Again I just felt it was far to early and extreme a reaction, overall.