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Traveling Bard

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Alittle off the current topic but it just hit me and I wanted to share and ask for thoughts.

I know I'm not the first to think of this....and the work that it would take to do it would be rather large considering that one would be doing it for free... but wouldn't it be cool if the first pokemon game was remade and instead of being hand holding and tutorial driven...actually be difficult. We could call it Pokemon Advanced Edition. Cater to the older crowd that is actually looking for a challenge instead of rolling their face over the keyboard and winning. 

I'm talking about Team Rocket and other trainers having balanced teams. Gym leaders taking precautions to deal with what you will most likely use against them. I mean come on, Brock should know you are going to come at him with grass and water pokemon <.< Another feature would be like what you guys were talking about previously, "assumed HMs". If the pokemon could have it naturally/obviously then it does without having to have it as a dedicated move. You would just have to get the badge in order to use it outside of battle like normal.

Let's say someone was going to do this. How would you, as designers, make pokemon better, more challenging, and not insulting to your intelligence sometimes?  

*edit* Second thought, maybe another gen remake would be better as the first gen was pretty broken in terms of type coverage...how about third gen? thoughts?
 
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NPC

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PokeMMO's chat. End of story. :p

Though it is very time-consuming...so I usually just play for a half-hour at a time.

Pokemon "Advanced" should be left for the fans to make. Game Freak shouldn't target such a small audience...after all, if you play the game as it was supposed to be (without grinding, and catching and using new Pokemon often), you'll find it can be quite difficult...just don't overlevel. Or you could nuzlocke. Yeah. 
 
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Traveling Bard

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I agree that it should be made by fans for fans. What would you put in it though? How would you improve on pokemon for an older audience without changing the looks of the game? 
 

Tai_MT

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I would remove the silly "Marathon" fight at the Elite Four.  That's what I would do.  You could make those trainers stronger and tougher without having to resort to "Marathon Fights" which basically boil down to just having enough Revives, Full Revives, healing items, and PP restoring items.  Seriously, Marathon Battles are easiest beaten by a bajillion items or severe overleveling to the max.  That isn't "difficulty" as much as it's "fake difficulty".

Why don't the Elite Four have more balanced teams of 6 instead of 5 with healing stations in between?  Honestly, I'd like a REAL challenge when I get there instead of using only two of my mons and then having to use my cash to heal them in between.
 

Jawnsunn

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Honestly, I don't think that really changes anything. I always felt that the Elite Four was the pretty much the ultimate challenge to overcome as a Trainer, to test everything you learned from those 40 hours of training, catching and team-building. Having healing stations and stuff just defeats that theme.

For me, I just want a hard/expert mode option with better AI and different teams for all the trainers. And one that isn't stupid-ly implemented either(Black 2 please go die).
 

Tai_MT

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Honestly, I don't think that really changes anything. I always felt that the Elite Four was the pretty much the ultimate challenge to overcome as a Trainer, to test everything you learned from those 40 hours of training, catching and team-building. Having healing stations and stuff just defeats that theme.

For me, I just want a hard/expert mode option with better AI and different teams for all the trainers. And one that isn't stupid-ly implemented either(Black 2 please go die).
The problem is though, without a healing station in between, the designers of the games can be uber lazy (which they have been with every incarnation of the Elite Four to date).  See, for me, it's always come down to either putting myself 10 levels above everything in the Elite Four so I have no issues or saving every single Pokeyen I have in order to purchase full restores and revives in order to get through them all.  Neither of those is a "test of skill" in the least.  That is a trainer taking everything he's learned in combat for those 40 hours and dumping it down the drain in order to "Brute Force" the marathon fight that is "The Elite Four" because it's one of the only viable options by the time you reach them.  I've always been absolutely annoyed by this because by the time you get to the Elite Four, even after fighting every trainer and catching every available mon at the time, your levels are going to be 5 under the first person in the Elite Four and about 12-15 under the highest leveled trainer there.  It only got worse with Black and White where it was a 6 trainer marathon as well as a CAPTURE battle with no way to heal in between any of the fights.  I never feel like I lost at the Elite Four because my strategy was worse or theirs was good.  I've felt like I lost at the Elite Four because my levels weren't high enough or I didn't have enough Revives to outlast all the strongest attacks of the mons.

When the most viable strategy against an opponent is "wait until they run out of their really good attack and then whittle them down slowly to death", it isn't really a strategy.  It's more the thing you do when you don't have an actual strategy, or when current strategies don't work.

The Elite Four need to have their parties changed up to reflect "balanced teams" or at least teams with good synergy (to promote STRATEGY in battle) and have a healing station between members because if they provided a good fight like they should have with each member, you shouldn't need the artificial difficulty of a "marathon battle".  It's really a lazy design decision that a lot of people don't realize it is.

Let me give you a really great example.  Do you play FPS games?  I'm going to assume you do.  "artificial difficulty" is when you choose say...  Hard Mode in an FPS and instead of the AI being smarter or coordinating themselves better, they simply have better accuracy, more health, and do more damage with the same weapons than you can do.  Remember the Halo 2 Jackal Snipers on Legendary?  Perfect auto-aim headshot?  Yeah, lazy design decision to make up for the absolutely TERRIBLE AI (which was somehow worse than that of the first game, which they let drive in that one for some reason).  To fight those Jackal Snipers didn't require any kind of real skill.  It came down to luck or learning how to bypass those sections of the levels by getting out of the map or just bumrushing through an area while marines were in it to take the deathshots for you.  No strategy, no skill, just blind luck and figuring out ways to break the game in order to even complete it.  That's essentially what the Elite Four is.  It's lazy programming.  The AI is absolutely terrible, the mons have no synergy with each other at all, the typings are fairly basic and don't usually have moves you wouldn't expect on them, and they're jacked up higher in level and run in a marathon to even be a challenge.  The fact that adding a healing station between the trainers would "break the challenge" in your opinion merely illustrates my point about how terrible the Elite Four concept is and how poorly programmed it has always been.

You know what's even worse than that?  I've perfected the "make the AI waste their healing items on their easiest destroyed mons" in every single game because the AI is so simplistic and stupid that it values all mons equally and is only programmed to drop a healing item on a mon if you put them into the red, but don't kill them.  The fact that they can be exploited like that all the way back to Gold/Silver (that's Gen II) and all the way up to Black2/White2 is a fantastic indicator that they've never overhauled the AI at all.  I'm not even using an actual real tactic.  I'm just exploiting the poorly programmed AI.  It's dang frustrating that I have been able to use that for so long without them having ever tried to patch or fix it.

Oh sure, they tell you the AI is better each generation...  But, it's really not.  You know what they do when they claim that?  If you go to whatever they're passing as "The Battle Tower" of that particular generation, all that happens is the RNG more often rolls in favor of the AI instead of you there.  That is their version of "better AI", making the computer able to cheat a bit in order to add challenge.  It is especially obvious when the AI can achieve "full party wipe" using nothing but Confuse Ray on your team while you can't ever manage to land a single blow because your mons hurt themselves in confusion 6 times in a row.  Meanwhile, if you use Sand Attack on the enemy over and over and over again, they'll still manage to hit you about half of the time.

I'm just looking for actual challenge that doesn't require lazy programming which either adds artificial difficulty or RNG cheating to accomplish.  What we have now is frankly...  beyond frustrating.
 

Seeaka

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I just wanted to say that I will be naming my Fennekin Ylvis. That is all.
 

hyde9318

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And Serebii has the X/Y Dex up now... btw... Showing off the "Z" Pokemon.... 



His name is Zygarde.
Check out the pokedex here if you want, some really cool stuff, plus the main page of serebii shows off some new megas...

http://www.serebii.net/xy/pokemon.shtml

 
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Seacliff

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MEGA TYRANTOR!!!!

But I am a bit disappointed with the 'Z' pokemon... I mean, I was expecting a snake but not with a Gensect head, A Magickarp tail, and Regi-like spots all over it.
 

hyde9318

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Well, the spots are all hexagons... I am wondering if he is some kind of data pokemon or something. Like a worm as in computer virus/worm. Being green also leads me to think that too. I won't lie though, for some odd reason, I love its design. I feel stupid saying that, but something about it just makes me need to have one,
 

Seeaka

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Just wanted to point out that spoiler tags are a thing like honestly not everyone wants to know every pokemon beforehand

Edit: disregard this post i am a dumb sometimes xD
 
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hyde9318

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Well, I went ahead and fixed that post then, but I also want to point out that being on the internet period is a spoiler. The images of the new megas have been out for like a week now on every site imaginable, and the Z pokemon is bound to enter so much fan art that it isnt even funny. Just because I dont spoil doesn't mean that it is going to stay secret, trust me. 

Not to mention that we have posted something about new pokemon here every time a new one has been announced this gen, so I dont see why this is different. By now, people should know that as we talk about pokemon, we may tell them about new ones.
 
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Seacliff

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Well, the spots are all hexagons... I am wondering if he is some kind of data pokemon or something. Like a worm as in computer virus/worm. Being green also leads me to think that too. I won't lie though, for some odd reason, I love its design. I feel stupid saying that, but something about it just makes me need to have one,
Something tells me this is the original Gensect or something. But that's obviously not true.

What I really want to know is what type it is and what side story it has, and will we get a Pokemon Z to find out?
 

hyde9318

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It is Dragon/Ground. Story is unknown so far though.
 

Seeaka

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So yeah sorry hyde you are completely 100% right and I did not mean to freak out. Honestly new pokemon is the thing I care least about getting spoiled. I'm very sorry.

As long as I've rage-brought it up though, I just want to remind everyone about our BW2 days. If people post about the new games when they get them, PLEASE use spoilers for anyhting that could be a spoiler. (but honestly new pokemon arent even a spoiler im just dumb halp) We want people to be able to enjoy the games together here without getting spoiled by accident.

THAT BEING SAID--

Hyde is completely right. If you are 100% gonna freak out if you get spoiled (ex me when im being dumb) DONT GO ON THE INTERNET. Mistakes happen, and people aren't gonna remember to put spoilers around everything, and also some things aren't considered spoilers by everyone (ex new pokemon).

(and suddenly you turned your derpiness into a learning moment good job seeaka)
 

hyde9318

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Oh, no problem. Sorry if I came off as freaking out, I didn't mean to. You certainly are right in that we should at least start to use spoilers finally as the time has finally come to unbox X and Y and begin our playthroughs. 

With that said, I do want to make a small announcement....

Seeaka brings up a very good point that we should follow now that X and Y are here. For two weeks, starting launch time, please keep all story/plot/secret information within spoilers. New pokemon are bound to be shown anyways, but please keep game-ruining info within spoilers until the two week limit has been either changed or passed all together. This should give the first wave of players enough time to enjoy their playthroughs. And by the end of the two weeks, I doubt any information can be posted here anyways that hasn't already been thrown across the internet all together, so no need to keep the curtains up after that. What will be ruined will be ruined by then anyways. So again, for the next two weeks, keep all important info regarding Pokemon X and Pokemon Y within spoilers so as to not spoil the games for anyone. Thank you all for reading this and please regard it.
 

Traveling Bard

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So my beef with Zygarde. He looks like a slug or a worm but he's a dragon/ground. Why can't he be a bug type? CHANGE IT UP a bit, you know? lol I'm feeling the computer virus thing that you were saying. If it were me, I'd make him like steel/bug or bug/electric. As a dragon/ground, isn't he just a flygon? Ok rant over. Can't wait for the game to come out. Saving my pennies for a 3ds now ;)
 

Tai_MT

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Oh, no problem. Sorry if I came off as freaking out, I didn't mean to. You certainly are right in that we should at least start to use spoilers finally as the time has finally come to unbox X and Y and begin our playthroughs. 

With that said, I do want to make a small announcement....

Seeaka brings up a very good point that we should follow now that X and Y are here. For two weeks, starting launch time, please keep all story/plot/secret information within spoilers. New pokemon are bound to be shown anyways, but please keep game-ruining info within spoilers until the two week limit has been either changed or passed all together. This should give the first wave of players enough time to enjoy their playthroughs. And by the end of the two weeks, I doubt any information can be posted here anyways that hasn't already been thrown across the internet all together, so no need to keep the curtains up after that. What will be ruined will be ruined by then anyways. So again, for the next two weeks, keep all important info regarding Pokemon X and Pokemon Y within spoilers so as to not spoil the games for anyone. Thank you all for reading this and please regard it.
Spoilers:  You will fight the Elite Four in this game.  You will beat Team (whatever their name is) and ruin their plans for world domination.  The professor will give you a mon and a dex and ask you to fill the dex.  After beating the Elite Four, the game will allow you to trade with previous versions of the game and the professor will give you a national version of the dex.  In the first route, you'll get your first Normal and Bird type pokemon.  Three of the gyms will be Fire, Water, and Grass type.

You know, all joking aside... the joke kind of makes my point for me.  What, exactly, is there to spoil about these games other than the new Pokémon?  The Plot is going to be the same as the last 20 some odd games (interestingly enough the only one of these things I played with a unique plot was Colleseum).  The secrets probably aren't going to be that secret by the time you get the game anyway, since they seldom ever change up the games or the mechanics of the games.  The fact that they've been hyping Mega Evolutions so much kind of indicates to me that the only real change they've made is that one.  The rest are just minor screenshots that they haven't hyped at all.

That's not to say I hate the games, I really don't.  I plan on buying both X and Y tonight and playing them over the weekend...  It's just...  It's hard to spoil games that haven't changed since their first iteration.  If the games had a progressive storyline like a movie series or something, I could see spoilers being an issue...  But, they don't, so it's really not a problem.
 

Seeaka

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hey not all the games have those gyms you know

But actually I don't think you're giving the games enough credit. I really thought that BW had amazing plots (as far as pokemon goes), and while BW2 weren't quite as good, I think it's improving. (and yes I loved Colosseum and XD they were so good except i hate double battles).
 

Traveling Bard

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In the case of double/triple battles, it would be nice to have a choice of only using one pokemon if you'd like. Call it power leveling or you just know that your lone pokemon could do the job easily enough anyway. On that note though, what do you hate so much about double battles?
 
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