Pokemon Corner

[Eschaton]

things can't change from spaguetti to crème brûlée from evening to morning.

It wouldn't be a change from spaghetti to crem brulee, it would be a change from spaghetti to spaghetti with meatballs, strippers, and Scotch.

 

[Luminous Warrior]

I love it when game companies try new things with a series. And I agree with Eschaton, almost. I just think that Pokemon battles need to stay turn based. Certain functions could get an overhaul, like the cooldown period Eschaton suggested. As long as it doesn't change to the point that you can't even recognize it as a Pokemon game anymore.

 

[Seacliff]

I love it when game companies try new things with a series. And I agree with Eschaton, almost. I just think that Pokemon battles need to stay turn based. Certain functions could get an overhaul, like the cooldown period Eschaton suggested. As long as it doesn't change to the point that you can't even recognize it as a Pokemon game anymore.

That much I wouldn't mind.

Heck, wouldn't mind if they added an MP meter, but I don't think they should...

 

[Eschaton]

A global cooldown, in hindsight, would essentially be the same thing as ATB.  Which I guess kind of proves some of Tai's point.  Somewhat.

I still stand by everything I said.

I regret nothing.

Also:  strippers and scotch

 

[Tai_MT]

The problem with the battle system in versioned Pokemon games is that it is a relic.  It worked on Game Boy.  Technology changed.  The graphics changed.  Yet the gameplay has not.  They had a chance to unify the gameplay of versioned Pokemon games and Pokemon Stadium as far back as the Nintendo DS back in 2004.

Sure, the games look great, but they still play like a Game Boy game.  I guess it keeps development time short, and retains a sense of continuity and solidarity within the series, but, they weren't afraid of altering the supplicative gameplay back in Gen II when they altered the Special stat and added sexes, breeding, and infant Pokemon.  The game wasn't as linear; you could explore other areas off the beaten path (granted there weren't that many, but...).  The game was real time.  The game became a reason to play at night, or early in the morning.  You could make friends with other Trainers and battle them again at higher levels.  And when I went to Kanto-- get out of here---  I just lost it.  I looked at my map and I was like, "Holy CRAP  YES!!"

Back when Gen II came out, I was nuts over that, but I saw it as natural progression of the series, within the constraints of the hardware.  I was expecting great things out of Gen III.  I remember my friend and I discussing possible new features before they came out.

When Gen III and IV came out, I wasn't impressed.  The additions made there were bells and whistles at best; nothing really new or groundbreaking.  Now I just look back at the changes in Gen II and just see them as daring for the series as a whole, while the rest just play it safe with limited additions of new content, and a rehash of the same old story (travel the land, battle Gym leaders, foil the Mafia/Yakuza, take on the Elite Four, become Champion, blah, blah, blah.).

sigh

It's a comfort zone.  Fans don't want too many changes.  Hell, when Skyrim came out, I was a little disappointed at how simple it was compared to Oblivion and Morrowind when they took out attributes and classes.  Over time, as I learned more about game design, I came to accept and understand the changes.  Skyrim didn't get dumbed down with the changes.  The changes represented an overall streamlining of the system; I had less to worry about and more fun to have.  It still rewarded me for roleplaying by making me more capable of playing my role.  And that's part of the Elder Scrolls' core gameplay.

sigh, again

Anyway, I know what I'd like out of Pokemon (other than a reason to play it again), but I know I won't get it.  Too many cultural differences, too much money.

I would suggest you say something other than "The Battle System is a Relic because it's Turn Based".  Real Time Battle may be "newer", but it's a STYLE that is determined by PREFERENCE of the creator.  It isn't archaic in the least.  Just as there are still millions out there who still play the Pen and Paper RPGs, there are people who play the Turn Based Battle Systems.  You are basically telling everyone here that something is "a relic" because of your own personal preference for a different battle system.  This is silly and childish and I suggest you stop it before I have to roll my eyes at you and call you an obvious troll.

I have no idea what you mean by "Pokémon games still play like they are Gameboy games!".  I was not aware there was a style to all games on a particular console.  Does that mean all games on the Xbox or Playstation are exactly the same with the same style and mechanics?  This seems like a weird gripe that basically reeks of "I'm an elitist" and nothing more.  You demand something be new and shiny and maybe take advantage of rumble technology to put a little Pleasure Hole in the side of the console just because it would make gaming "so much better".  Your personal preference does not warrant a broad and incorrect generalization such as "Pokémon Games play like Gameboy Games".  I have no idea what this means, and I doubt anyone else does (yourself included) either.  Besides, last I checked, they are still on the Gameboy Console.  Be kind of weird if a Pokémon game on the Gameboy 3DS played like a PC game and was prone to constant crashes, modding, cheating, elitists...  Wait...  We've already got that.  Huh.

Real Time in Pokémon...  Where to start with this one.  Look, I'm glad you enjoy it, but for the rest of us with 8 to 5 jobs, a "real time" system is fairly stupid and annoying.  I get off of work at 5, if I want to play my game, guess what?  Oh, it's nighttime 'cause night starts at 6.  Well, thanks.  There's a ton of events I couldn't do now because of it.  My option?  Set the time on my console or in my game so that my peak playing hours are the "daytime" hours in the game.  Real Time systems are frustrating, annoying, and completely unnecessary.  Want to know why they're even moreso?  Because they can be easily circumvented, just as they could in Gen II.  I'd reset my clock more than once in those games just so I could catch mons I normally wouldn't be awake or even home for.  It's a feature that adds little to any game or franchise and that is fairly perplexing to me, since a Day/Night system should indicate some very massive changes in the game world.  However, few RPGs institute even BASIC changes when a Day/Night system is implemented.  It's one of those features that game designers add in to trick players into thinking there's depth or intrigue in a game when really none exists.  Oh, it's clever, it continues to trick even veteran players today, but it's a trick none-the-less.

I think you should take off your Nostalgia Goggles for a moment when you're going to discuss Gen II.  The phone and the Day/Night cycle were simply novelties.  They didn't really add anything interesting and unique.  The only reason to register anyone in the phone was for Swarms (which, once you caught the mons in the swarm, there was never a reason to keep the people in your phone list) or for battles (which, you wouldn't want to do because the Elite Four or even fighting Red was far more preferable and desirable since they posed the most challenge, gave the most XP, and gave the most money).  Let's not even get into the weird "Wonder Gift" thing they had where you could get random junk for decoration, and you seldom ever got anything good from it.  The games themselves were little more than a rehash of the originals with some new mons and a few new features (I, for one, loved the breeding part, or catching shinies).

I really don't think there's a reason to be saying "This is what the fans want" when you talk about Pokémon.  The games are the way they are because Gamefreak and Nintendo decided to make them that way.  If we got what the fans wanted, we'd have a COMPLETELY 3D Pokémon game as well as a Pokémon MMO.  We have neither, despite the over 10 year demand for both of these things to exist.  What you're complaining about when you're blaming the fans is something pretty much every single franchise of video game is guilty of.  Remaking the last game with new features.  Why do this?  The developers and publishers know it will sell if it's the same game with new bells and whistles.  Too many changes to a game and players scream "they changed it, now it sucks!" and they lose money.  This isn't always the case, but it's seen so often in many other franchises, that a game company or a publisher won't often want to take the chance of "trying something new".  Though, if we're going to be honest about Pokémon...  We've got Pinball, Trozei, the Colleseum and XD games, Dream Radar, Mystery Dungeon, Conquest, and Ranger series.  All of these are Pokémon games.  Sure, they're not the "gotta catch 'em all" variety most of the time, but they are something "new" that they have been trying with the series.  You're kind of making a blanket statement without really knowing anything about the subject.  That's kind of frustrating.

I will agree that Pokémon can do more than what they've done.  I'd like the main storyline games in which you "gotta catch 'em all" to give me a bit of variety.  I'm fairly certain I'll never get it, but I'd like to play as a guy aspiring to be a Gym Leader, or a Breeder, or a Professor, or something else.  Perhaps a separate storyline depending on what you set as your goal would be nice.  I'd also like to see some Innate HM's so that I don't have to teach Pokémon who SHOULD know these moves how to do them.  Water Pokémon should automatically know how to swim.  Flying Pokémon should automatically know how to fly.  Bladed mons should already know how to cut.  Electric types should already know how to do "flash".  Etcetera ad nauseum.

Now, I'm not trying to bash you as a person, it's just that reading your blanket statements and vague complaints has actually started to irritate me, and I felt the need to address some of them.  Do I want Pokémon to institute more changes?  Absolutely.  Do I think it's necessary?  Not really.  The reason the games tend to sell so well is because of the battle system and the compulsion to "collect them all".  Most everyone wants to be the best at something, so the battle system is a good way to do that and get those players addicted.  A lot of other people like to collect things, or get the 100% in a game as a compulsion that brings satisfaction.  It caters to those people as well.  Anything beyond that is fairly superfluous and unnecessary.  The games sell well because they are designed around those two addictive behaviors and compulsions.  It's why they initially sold well to begin with, despite being horribly broken, buggy, and somewhat lackluster.

Basically, any change that doesn't rely on the two selling factors of "battle" and "collection", would be fairly meaningless and dubbed "bells and whistles".  Likewise, if you try to change either of those aspects of the games that make it popular, you're going to have a somewhat unpopular game.

Let's take a quick look at Metroid.  The games have remained the same since their inception.  However, back on the Gamecube, they made a change.  From sidescroller to full 3D FPS environment.  Lots of people screamed "bloody murder" at the aspect.  People were horrified to think their game was going to turn into an FPS.  Why were they upset?  Because the core mechanic of Metroid revolves around secrets and exploration.  Shooters typically involve neither.  Luckily, Nintendo knew what they were doing when they handed it off to be turned into an FPS game because the major defining core mechanic of the game remained intact.  Exploration was here to stay.  Metroid Prime even further sated the hungry fans when they realized how much storyline was actually thrown into the game.  Scanning became the "catch 'em all" of the Prime series and sent a lot of fans to exploring and scanning absolutely everything to fill their Log Books and learn about the world they were playing in as well as the universe constructed around the game.

Now, we can take a look at the Zelda games.  They have remained pretty much unchanged since their inception as well (except for the second game on the NES which was freakin' hard to complete and was a sidescroller instead of an overhead view).  The draw of Zelda is the puzzles, the exploring, and the secrets.  If the draw of those games was the story, the franchise would've went bankrupt when Majora's Mask was created.  These games have remained unchanged for so long because to mess with the formula of exploring, completing puzzles, and blowing holes in walls basically dooms the game.  Look at all the games where you collect "Force Gems" as the main draw of the game.  They really don't sell that well compared to other titles.  Look at Windwaker, it caught a lot of flak because there wasn't much exploration or puzzle solving in it.

You see, you can change things about a franchise, but if you forget what draws your customers to your product to begin with, you're going to find you don't have many customers to begin with.  Design and Marketing is meant to be about capturing players, making them addicted, and keeping them coming back for more.  Developers or Publishers who have no idea what makes their franchises popular to begin with are typically doomed to failure (Sonic the Hedgehog, anyone?) in subsequent releases.

 

[Eschaton]

Ugh... I'm not getting into this over Pokemon.

 

[hyde9318]

So, not trying to argue (as some people here are), but if you are wanting to point out the flaws in the pokemon series, why are you in the pokemon fan thread? Sure, we all here know that the Pokemon series is not perfect. Hell, they weren't even perfect back when Turn Based battle systems were all the rage. But it is something we like. If we didn't like it, we wouldn't have stayed with the franchise for so long and we sure as hell wouldn't be here defending it when you claim it is "a relic". Now, I am positive that at some point, you loved the series as we do, and I am deeply sincere when I say that I am sorry the series fell short in your eyes. I understand it must have been hard for Gamefreak to not impress you when you wanted them to the most, but they made the games they wanted and we play them, as we want. Now, you are on the RPG Maker forums, so I will assume you have already done, or have tried/are trying to make a game of your very own. Imagine you getting that game out and then people running around saying that what you have made is is crap and is ancient because you have an old school battle system. Because you were proud of making said game, you now are a little hurt, I know this would be true even if you didn't want to say it outright. I know GameFreak is not really an indie company making its first game, but they surely are proud of what they do. I mean, look at Ken Sugimori for one. That man gets so excited when making new pokemon that he pushes nintendo practically 24/7 to let him show off his new designs to the public. He is always so proud of what he does because he knows that somewhere in this world, someone is going to love his creations. It is a good feeling knowing you have made something someone likes.


So my point here is this... Pokemon has its flaws. It has its ups, it has its downs, it has its "death valleys' of problems. BUT, it is something that most of the people in this thread and many people around the world hold dear to their hearts, and it is a driving force in what brings many of us together. If you want to point out the flaws in the series in a thread based on praising said series, you are purposely trying to start an argument. Now, I am going to assume you are a rather intelligent and kind individual (as I have seen you are in past posts), and I am also going to assume that an argument was never your intention. But I will warn you that continuing to go back and forth with people here on whether or not their opinions are wrong is keeping a closed mind. People like things the way they are, and while you don't, it won't make you any allies by carrying on an argument. As I said before in a recent post on this very thread, take into consideration that some people like things one way while others like it a different way. Don't tell them outright that they are wrong, that is forcing an opinion.


So on that note, a reminder to people just now coming in. This is a fan thread about the pokemon series. Coming in having a bad thought about pokemon and wanting to point out why you dislike it is a bad idea. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is a place populated by fans, and fans are not very forgiving. I'll bet any amount of money that if I went over to the Final Fantasy thread and stated that "FF sucks, and has sucked since the first game", I would probably be torn to shreds in a matter of minutes. While this is a pretty calm group that has pretty nice conversations mostly, I don't find it logical to go to a fan thread stating your opinion on why the game is bad.

 

[Eschaton]

Final Fantasy does suck-

I wanted to bring in a different opinion.  That opinion was that the gameplay is, as I said, a bit of an artifact.  It's okay.  People like that.  People here like that.  People are here do discuss why they like that.  Good for them.  I can appreciate old-school.  Hell my game (well, let's call it an idea) is steeped in old school roleplaying.

 

[hyde9318]

And I would be very happy to give your game a try when you finish it up. Hell, You can even come to me if you have any graphical stuff like logos or whatnot that you need help with, the offer is out there.


And I am more than happy to see a very mature response. Good for you. So many people have the mindset that "This is the internet, this guy doesn't have the same opinion as me... I must make him feel like dirt until he does", but I am really glad to see that a few good people are still around.


So, while we are chatting, what was your favorite part(s) about pokemon? I mean the franchise as a whole, so including main games, spin-offs, TCG, plushies, anime, so on and so forth.

 

[Eschaton]

I'm very impressed with the ability of an 8-bit game (Gen I and Gen II) to feel immersive.  I could get lost in it, even with the immersion-breaking random battles.  And there's always a certain satisfaction with defeating the rival.

The game world was open; there were no map transitions except to go inside and outside or up and down a floor.  That's why I expected the sandbox to open up in later generations.  I was expecting sidequests, and NPCs with schedules, and going on random adventures with other Trainers.

I was impressed with the addition of a real-time clock.  It added a new layer of depth to the collection of monsters; you had to know when to find them.  It almost made me feel like I was hunting for them Steve Irwin-style.  The day-night thing and the scheduling of in-game events made me expect NPC schedules in future games, but that did not come to pass.

I feel like there's a lot of potential for the series.  I even feel like Pokemon would work as an MMORPG.  And that's a lot coming from me, because I can't stand MMORPGs.  I just feel like that potential hasn't been realized and likely won't be.

 

[hyde9318]

Well, I do agree with you on the schedule thing. I do wish that things changed. Trainers in the wild, why don't they ever aspire to become more? Why don't they just leave their spot and go on to do great things? I want to see Youngster Joey and his Rattatas later on by the Elite 4 with a better team and a more hardened look, like he actually learned stuff during his time in Kanto. Or why Nurse Joy never has a shift to herself, or god forbid, a day off. As annoying as it would probably end up being, I think even Gyms should be closed on certain days so the leader can go home to their families at least to have a nice home cooked meal. In fact, that would even make the game a bit longer if you had to wait for the gym to open. Would give you more time to do other things and would break up the normal "Go Gym to Gym" routine. 

 

[Luminous Warrior]

Well, I do agree with you on the schedule thing. I do wish that things changed. Trainers in the wild, why don't they ever aspire to become more? Why don't they just leave their spot and go on to do great things? I want to see Youngster Joey and his Rattatas later on by the Elite 4 with a better team and a more hardened look, like he actually learned stuff during his time in Kanto. Or why Nurse Joy never has a shift to herself, or god forbid, a day off. As annoying as it would probably end up being, I think even Gyms should be closed on certain days so the leader can go home to their families at least to have a nice home cooked meal. In fact, that would even make the game a bit longer if you had to wait for the gym to open. Would give you more time to do other things and would break up the normal "Go Gym to Gym" routine. 

Hey, why not even make more than eight gyms to challenge. You still only need eight badges to challenge the Elite Four, but there aren't just eight Gym Leaders that you can fight. And maybe put a Hard mode into the game. Maybe in the Hard mode, your opponents levels could be scaled to yours. I also want to see a lot more out of the post-game. One of the coolest things in Gen II was being able to explore the Kanto region in the post-game. Maybe make the Gyms re-challengeable too. That would be AWESOME!

 

[NPC]

@Eschaton: Well, there is that new pokemon detective game coming out, which might pique your interest!

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/10/28/is-the-next-pokemon-game-a-3d-detective-adventure

 

[hyde9318]

This belongs here, btw.... Lol.


Caution, Vulgar words are used.

Spoiler

 

[kerbonklin]

I have no idea what you mean by "Pokémon games still play like they are Gameboy games!".  I was not aware there was a style to all games on a particular console.  Does that mean all games on the Xbox or Playstation are exactly the same with the same style and mechanics?  

Sorry Tai but I support him/her on this statement. I understand what it means to say "This game plays/looks like it's a *console name here* game."  If you ever looked at the game Dust: An Elysian Tail, most people would probably think it's a Playstation 1 game because of the way it looks, plays, and it's control scheme. However it's an (exclusively) Xbox Live Arcade game until it got ported to PC (Steam) as well. Quite the time-difference. The game looks like it belonged to another era. It was still an amazing as all-hell game though.

And yeah, pokemon overall definitely still plays like a Gameboy game if you take out the color and dumb down the animations. Tile-based movement and maps, simple battle scheme (Choose from 4 attacks, items, switch, run), not many mandatory buttons at all (A, B, Directions, Start, L, R)

Maybe that made it a little more clearer.

 

[Eschaton]

Golden Sun looks and plays exactly how Gen III should have looked and played. I would have loved to have been able to set Surf and Fly to the shoulder buttons as shortcuts.

Also, playing an overly long UNSKIPPABLE animation before using moves on the field?

I would not have faulted Nintendo at all for ripping themselves off like that.

Best part? Golden Sun has a vs. multiplayer. So the battle style would have worked because it's one-on-one instead of four-on-four.

 

[Tai_MT]

Sorry Tai but I support him/her on this statement. I understand what it means to say "This game plays/looks like it's a *console name here* game."  If you ever looked at the game Dust: An Elysian Tail, most people would probably think it's a Playstation 1 game because of the way it looks, plays, and it's control scheme. However it's an (exclusively) Xbox Live Arcade game until it got ported to PC (Steam) as well. Quite the time-difference. The game looks like it belonged to another era. It was still an amazing as all-hell game though.

And yeah, pokemon overall definitely still plays like a Gameboy game if you take out the color and dumb down the animations. Tile-based movement and maps, simple battle scheme (Choose from 4 attacks, items, switch, run), not many mandatory buttons at all (A, B, Directions, Start, L, R)

Maybe that made it a little more clearer.

So what you're saying is that a game on the Gameboy 3DS plays like a Gameboy Game?  That is seriously your point?  I think I'd be more concerned if you had said it played like an Atari game.  As it is, it doesn't sound like an insult at all, but rather a strange criticism that makes little sense.  I seriously don't understand the complaint at all.  Do you want to play a Pokémon game on the 3DS that plays like a game on the Xbox360?  I admit that'd be quite awesome...  But, I don't think the hardware would be able to handle that.

At this point, what you're most likely to get out of a 3DS would be maybe something akin to an N64 title or maybe one of the late-era Playstation games.  But, you still have the memory limit of the extremely small cartridges to contend with on that.

 

[Eschaton]

So what you're saying is that a game on the Gameboy 3DS plays like a Gameboy Game?

Yes!  Exactly.

At this point, what you're most likely to get out of a 3DS would be maybe something akin to an N64 title or maybe one of the late-era Playstation games.  But, you still have the memory limit of the extremely small cartridges to contend with on that.

Actually, the 3DS is slightly less powerful than the original XBOX, PlayStation 2, original PSP, or the GameCube.  I know of at least one PlayStation 2 port onto 3DS (Metal Gear Solid 3), and one game that runs on the same graphical engine as games on the PS2 (Kingdom Hearts 3D).

Graphically, I would say that X and Y are putting the 3DS through its moves.  But the gameplay...

 

[Seacliff]

If we are talking about the 3DS, it's actually more powerful than the wii with everything besides graphics and I think internal memory.

I have yet to see a GameCube game ported onto the 3DS, but several PS2 games already had, as stated by Eschaton. (you forgot to mention Tales of the Abyss, )

Graphically, I would say that X and Y are putting the 3DS through its moves.  But the gameplay...

Since when did Nintendo EVER changed the basic gameplay to a series besides the times when they went to SNES - N64? I would believe that if we want the 3DS to prove it's power through gameplay, it may possibly be through a third party game... most likely Atlus.

 

[Eschaton]

Yeah.  That's Nintendo's problem. They're too afraid to take risks with their IP.  In their defense, Skyward Sword and Other M fellated, and they both took major risks for their series.