Polearms...

[Eschaton]

*purses lips in contemplation*

Okay...

Should I bother with them as a weapon category in my project?  There's a reason they're appearances in RPGs are in decline.  They don't really have a niche.  Daggers are for sneak attacks, bows are ranged, axes/maces/greatswords swing slow but hit hard, swords are average.  But spears?

Shrugs.

There's more to it.  I'm using an ABS that uses the weapon's icon in the animation (I'm lazy that way).  Spears' icons aren't much longer than swords' icons; spears won't appear that functionally different from swords.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

spears are normally either - hit longer (or more enemies, mostly used in tactical style battles) or has a piercing kind of attack

so since the weapon icons aren't that long, you might not be able to do the hit longer, so maybe the pierce could do... something like low damage, but ignores armor kind of thing...

 

[Eschaton]

If spears could pierce armor, there would be no use for swords, though...

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

then there's no point in having axes/maces/gs altogether since all of them are slow swing, hit hard... having one is enough if we go by that logic...

swords would have higher base attack than spears, so that they are more useful when it comes to low defense enemies than spears... 

or you can have different "attack" types, using elements for example... and then there are enemies that are like "shelled" and takes less damage from cutting attacks but take full damage from pierce...

Normally, spears in traditional RPGs are there because of classes...

For tacticals and action-RPGs, spears are really mostly used for longer range/hit-more

but since your ARPG cannot do the longer hit due to the limitations of your ABS, then you can do things like what I said above if you want to add spears...

 

[Eschaton]

Good thing you brought that up.  The player can specialize in weapon types.  The more they use swords, the more damage they do with swords.  The more they use bows, the more damage they do with bows.

But... it would make more sense to smash armor with a mace than to get into its tight spots with a ten-foot pole.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

what if it's like this: at lower mastery, the armor pierce is low, but at higher mastery it becomes more powerful... this would make a spear some kind of hard to use at the start, but a very rewarding weapon at the end-game assuming the end-game enemies have high armor values... or if you have different "armor types" then you can make it such that at lower mastery, you cannot pierce very hard armors then as the mastery goes up, the more "armor type" that you can pierce...

there are really lots of ways that you can do to implement spears nicely... XD...

 

[Eschaton]

Spears are the Magikarp of weapons?

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

they can be... it all depends on how you want them to be, you can that for the spears, daggers, swords, whichever one you like... personally, I like having these early-game and end-game type of weapon variety as it allows me to choose how I want to trend the game and it adds to replayability too... since different weapons would actually change the playing experience...

or you can also make certain weapons as really weaker than the others, making them as a challenge type of weapon meant to be used only by those who want extra challenge in their playthrough...

it can also be like monsters drop different items depending on the weapon used...

 

[mahan]

in an MMORPG spear type weapons usually have more higher damage attribute than sword type weapons because spears are concentrated on attack and piercing causes more damage than cutting because piercing is more efficient in ignoring defense when dealing damage (as if cutting will be more defended by armors but when armors are pierced by a pointed object it can cause a small hole that can go through armor bearer's body) 

just imagine you are using a knife that is used to cut an apple and an apple that is pierced with a knife... 

so with my argument I think spears can't be deprecated in most of RPG games and even me loves to use spears on most games because I am more an attacker(berseker) than an average(warrior) or defense(paladin) concentrated character

 

[Eschaton]

I know I keep talking crap on them, but I think spears are kind of... a  JRPG thing.

How many JRPGs these days have axes?  Or maces?  Or warhammers?

How many WRPGs have spears anymore?  Not many, I'm afraid.

Maybe it's a cultural thing?

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

or even setting... most medieval thingy I've seen (games and movies) has mostly swords and spears for the civilized guys, and axes and maces for bandit types... and many rpgs take elements from medieval ages...

Personally I feel like this thread is useless since you seem to be highly stuck on the idea of not using them...

 

[supercow]

i think its more like this:

dagger:

-speed : *****

-range: *

-power: *

-special: stab

sword:

-speed: ***

-range: **

-power: ***

-special: wide arc atk

spear:

-speed : **

-range: ***

-power: ****

-special: pierce

bow:

-speed: **

-range: *****+

-power : ***

-special: charge

mace/club/greatsword

-speed: *

-range: ***

-power : *****

-special: charge

 

[Eschaton]

or even setting... most medieval thingy I've seen (games and movies) has mostly swords and spears for the civilized guys, and axes and maces for bandit types... and many rpgs take elements from medieval ages...

Personally I feel like this thread is useless since you seem to be highly stuck on the idea of not using them...

I want to be sold on the inclusion of polearms.  It's why I'm asking.  I've gotten good ideas from having done so.

For that, I thank every body.

I'm just not convinced - either  way - as of yet.  In my mind, there are good arguments for and against.

SuperCow, I don't plan on getting... that deep.  But thank you

 

[mahan]

I even played a MMORPG .. can I name it here? its Rising Force Online(RF Online) and its a sci-fi futuristic game that has many classes in 3 different races and most of the hitter players much more prefer the use of spears as it really deals a big damage even though it has a caveat of slow attack speed, but we have this hitter skills that really deals an immense AOE damage that we even forget to enhance our defense attributes...

FYI: the hitter players on RF online much prefer having dogde(evasion) as defense mechanism than having defense attribute raised

 

[Eschaton]

*rubs manly beard*

Hm...

You all have given me a lot to consider.  Obviously, I feel spears have a place in my game... I just don't know what that place is.

I want them there, I want variety.

But I don't want them to be ignored because other weapons might be "better."  Mahan brings up a great point; spears are the most popular in that MMO because the other weapons weren't well balanced

I would want a player to pick spears because they like spears, because they see spears as a viable alternative to swords, not because they are more powerful than other weapons.

Now, on one hand, I could pull a FFII and make them all functionally identical.  At that point, the player picking a weapon would be answering the question "which one do I think is cooler?"  And that's fine.  But it's a bit old.  It keeps warriors linear, just hackin' and slashin', while wizards, with their wide and differing variety of spells remain quadratic.

On the other, I could specialize the weapon types.  Make selecting multiple types of weapon specializations for a character viable.  My problem, though, is that there are only so few specialties:

Swords are unspecialized.  They're just cool.  They're the assault rifles of melee weapons.

Axes hit hard, but swing slow.

Maces/Hammers are effective against armor and shielded enemies, and even natural armor, but swing even slower than axes.

Spears...

Well, I have a couple of ideas.

Perhaps spears are extremely effective wizard-killers, bypassing magical barriers.

I could make them level faster, but the player would discard all other weapons because they would have max DPS faster than with other weapons.

I could make them high-risk, high reward; they do very little damage, but when they crit, they crit very hard.  But there's not a lot of verisimilitude in my mind regarding that; there's not an explanation as to why spears crit hard.

But, none of these feel like the ideal solution.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Now, on one hand, I could pull a FFII and make them all functionally identical.  At that point, the player picking a weapon would be answering the question "which one do I think is cooler?"  And that's fine.  But it's a bit old.  It keeps warriors linear, just hackin' and slashin', while wizards, with their wide and differing variety of spells remain quadratic.

from the given info here, whether you add spear or not, your warriors are still linear... IMO, warriors are always linear unless you have things like acrobatic dodging, superb skill sets etc...

I think one of the most logical thing is that really spears have longer range... so maybe you could just find a workaround on how to make it work with the ABS that ur using...

Or you could make spears have high damage but no parrying capability, while others like sword has a parrying capability...

 

[Probotector 200X]

I remember hearing before that polearms are actually the most versatile weapon, NOT swords. That's more of a...fantasy thing. And easier to learn how to use I think too. Think about it, how many different "poles" do people use? Brooms, mops, rakes, etc. You already have some idea how to use a spear probably. Whereas a sword? What common household tool is like a sword? No, cutting knives really aren't much like swords. So...for arming villagers when you have no other choice, a spear is not only easier to use, but safer too.

Also, discussion is good, but so is research. I have some muddled memories of what was special about spears, so...I looked it up on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear

Some quick info I got from there:

-Spears are one of the first weapons, dating back to prehistory, and even some chimpanzees can make primitive spears.

-Can be used for combat, as well as hunting and fishing (try fishing with a sword, I dare you)

-Spears can be used one-handed, two-handed, or thrown. Some throwing spears, called javelins, actually had fragile spearheads, so when thrown, it shatters! Why? So your enemy can't pick it back up and throw it at you nearly as effectively. But that kinda spear isn't so versatile.

-Spears were integral for the phalanx battle formation.

-Spears were cheaper and easier to produce than most weapons, as they used less iron.

-Spears are one of the best weapons for mounted cavalry, with their reach. Also used by infantry to counter cavalry.

So, for a JRPG...

-Spears are cheaper than most weapons. Also, easier to use.

-Hunting sidequests or something?

-Used for melee or throwing

-Perhaps spears have alternate "stances" that alter your stats and skills

-Anti-cavalary weapon, like horse-mounted knights, or dragon riders, or whatever

-Speaking of dragons, spears are often associated with them, usually as a dragon-slayer weapon. Swords somtimes too, yes, but spears and dragons, that's something worth considering.

Hope this helps or something.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

anti-cavalry, very like mount and blade's spear wall something...

 

[mahan]

well my avatar's scythe is considered a spear type weapon hahaha XD and I love spear weapons =)

 

[Eschaton]

I remember hearing before that polearms are actually the most versatile weapon, NOT swords. That's more of a...fantasy thing.

I agree, but also think it was more of a glamor thing that dates back to the Roman military.  The vast majority of Roman forces were foederati, or barbarian troops from client tribes bound by treaty to help the Roman military proper, and auxilia, non-citizen members of the Roman army.  They used what was cheaply mass-produced:  spears.  But nobody remembers those guys.  Everyone remembers the heavy infantry f*cking Legionaries, the citizen-soldiers, and the guys you imagine when you think of the Roman army.  Each one armed to the teeth with a verutum, pilium, pugio, and of course, the gladius.  Once a legionary chucked his verutum and pilium, he and his buddies were a walking meat grinder with their gladii.  SWORDS.

Another Roman source of glamor for the sword was the effing gladiator.  Among them, the gladius was standard issue.

And then Rome fell, and chivalry rose.  Knights were the epitome of badass.  They weren't the spear-wielding conscript rabble, these guys were the heroes leading the charge.  Also, they were apparently legally entitled to have their manly way with your wife and/or daughters.  But that's another horrifying matter, right there.

But, swords, they combine the control of a knife with a good chunk of the reach of a spear.  They aren't as economical as spears, but with training and experience, they were definitely more effective.  Spears are clumsy and inaccurate (dare I say, random?) in comparison.  The sword was the mark of a skilled and accomplished warrior.

Yet another source of glamor for the sword are the samurai.  I don't even need to explain those guys, you all know.

But the stories that inspire us, they are stories of swordsmen, not spear-wielding rabble.  So, most RPG heroes use swords.