Preserve TP or not?

[Kes]

I have played a lot of RM games over the years, certainly in excess of 200, and the overwhelming majority of them do not preserve TP, meaning that at the beginning of every battle your characters have either zero or some miniscule amount determined by the RNG.

I personally loathe that. I have some cool skills that I'm not allowed to use until I've either spammed Attack with those characters long enough or (though probably, and) been hit often enough to have generated some. I find this both intensely boring and illogical. Why cannot I use these skills off the bat (assuming I have enough preserved TP) in the same way as I can use Magic skills from the get go (again assuming I've enough MP)? When it's repurposed and called something like 'Energy', that makes it even more inane. I'm supposed to believe that I have less energy at the beginning of a fight than I have several turns in when I've been whacking away and am probably at least a bit injured. Oh really? EDIT - forgot to add this variation. Calling it 'Rage' is, if anything, even worse. Skills require, well, skill. Anyone in a rage is normally less skillful than when they attempt something cooly and with calculation. e.g. Berserker who hits hard but misses a lot.

So why do people do it? Maybe because it's the default and people just go along with it. Or maybe it's one of those 'nostalgia' things that I happen not to share. Or....

So, dear reader, what am I missing that not preserving TP is more or less the standard? All my games have preserved TP, and no one has ever commented negatively on it, but I assume that there must be some decent reason for using it, otherwise it would not be so prevelant.

I await your enlightenment.

 

[BK-tdm]

The four main reasons arent anything fancy or worth a big explanation:

• They dont know the option exists.
• They find the option but forget about it because most battle playtesting is done on the "test battle" bubble instead of the whole playtrough so they dont really catch the "problem".
• They want to emulate a FF limit break mechanic which builds up by using normal attacks so they want normal attacks to be used.
• The rarest one: Its intended.

In my case, TP decreases over time when not battling as i view TP as some kind of adenaline that builds up in the heat of battle, you still need 3 or so minutes to completely empty it but its better than a full reset after every battle as being completely cooled off after a battle in a place full of enemies doesnt make sense to me

 

[Kes]

@BK-tdm That doesn't explain, though, why you haven't applied the same logic to your magic skills.

 

[Wavelength]

One of the really nice things about TP is that, unlike most implementations of MP, it regrows without using up consumables (or returning to an Inn). This dynamic means that the player can feel free to use as much as they want to during the battle - during any battle, even as a finisher against weak mobs. It's fun and liberating to be able to use your skills just because you can!

The problem with preserving TP between battles is that it encourages the player to build up their TP and then save it (not use it), in case the next battle will be a lot harder. It's no longer a resource you can freely use as a tactical element of the battle, but rather a resource you have to worry (somewhat) about managing long-term. Additionally, if TP skills are particularly powerful (think Limit Breaks), it becomes harder to balance battles because you're unsure whether the player is coming into them with full TP or zero TP.

For these reasons, in both Ace games I've made so far, I've avoided using Preserve TP, and started characters off in combat with a small amount of TP (usually around 25), and have them regenerate some TP each turn (in addition to extra gain when they take damage).

 

[woootbm]

So why do people do it? Maybe because it's the default and people just go along with it.

I would say this is the case 90+% of the time. So many RPG Maker games I've played have so many systems that are either completely untouched, or barely touched. And, as a whole, very little thought put into coming up with new things.

The problem with preserving TP between battles is that it encourages the player to build up their TP and then save it (not use it), in case the next battle will be a lot harder. It's no longer a resource you can freely use as a tactical element of the battle, but rather a resource you have to worry (somewhat) about managing long-term.

I definitely hate this. I'm so prone to just holding and holding onto it, it feels awful.

I'm making a system now that's more akin to a limit break or super meter than TP. So I'm not letting players preserve it BUT my plan is also to make it build up faster so that players can often use them in every fight, or even multiple times in a long fight. I think this whole concern is really just a matter of tweaking numbers.

 

[M.I.A.]

In my main project, TP is limited to 5TP max. TP is preserved after battle.
Most Actors have 1-5 Skills that use 1-5TP.. these are little boosts like "Your next attack will be a Critical Hit", "Your next Magic Skill will target All Foes", to "Your Heals will also remove Negative Status".

This gives a little boost that the players can use freely without "holding onto it for an important battle".

Oh yeah, TP is gained by "Guarding" and rare certain skills/Items, so the player can build it up whenever they want during slow/easy battles, or rapidly during harder battles. It seems to work out just the way I like it to in battle tests and beta tests.

Hope this helps!
-MIA

 

[BK-tdm]

@BK-tdm That doesn't explain, though, why you haven't applied the same logic to your magic skills.

The game im working on doesnt use "magic" but physical skills, those use stamina which is your standard MP, and TP is used for "finishers" akin to super meters on fighting games, you can hadouken al day on street fighter (skill) but the super move requires buildup (finisher), which is maybe what people who intend the TP wipe after every battle wants to recreate

Adding the fact that a non depletable until use TP/Super/limit break bar will let you go specially prepared for bosses. I remember saving before bosses on a final fantasy game (i think 7,cant really remember right now) running in circles to build up limit breaks and then havingall limits available on the boss's first turn, some games can be prepared for that ending up with a beefed boss that is actually expecting you to release the nukes first turn (and its harder for people who dont apply this strategy) other games arent and are cheesed by people who "overprepare", its pretty hard to balance

Plus managing the "hoarder" players who will never use the super meter to "save it for an emergency" and end up clearing the whole game holding back for "when its really needed" wasting all your precious super move animations

 

[Kes]

In the light of these replies, I wonder if I am an unusual player in that I don't hoard my preserved TP but use it quite freely, especially if I think it's going to be a long battle so I can replenish it and use the skills again.

@Wavelength Starting with 25 TP seems perfectly reasonable to me. Most, however, start with between 0 - 7 (or thereabouts) which is pretty useless, imo. I find it especially annoying when my cheapest skill costs 20 TP or more, so that I can do nothing except spam Attack for 4 or 5 turns.

@BK-tdm I get your point about hoarding so that at the beginning of a boss battle you can unleash everything on the first turn. However, in my games it is hard (though not impossible) to get through an ordinary battle without using some TP skills so it would be rare indeed to go into the next battle with a full meter.

@M.I.A. that's a neat way of dealing with very small numbers. I'm not sure how that would translate into a game with higher numbers though.

 

[Restart]

Generally the issue with preserving TP is that it incentivizes killing all-but-one opponent, then grinding TP out of it in-battle so next time you can start with full reserves.

It sounds like your issue isn't that TP doesn't carry over between battles - your issue is that you don't think you start battles with enough TP by defualt.

 

[LostFonDrive]

I believe one issue is that non-preserved TP theoretically allows individual combat encounters to be better balanced around the TP skills with the expectation of the player needing to build it up during that fight rather than simply carrying it over from a previous fight. In particular this can allow players to cheese boss fights by deliberately grinding up a full TP gauge in advance and then immediately starting the fight with their best skills. Worse yet it arguably encourages this and makes players feel disadvantaged if they don't do it.

 

[bgillisp]

@BK-tdm : You mentioned it was some using it as like a limit break. If so then why do they not preserve TP? FF7, FF9 and FFX the limit break gauge carries over from battle to battle so if they wish to emulate it they should have it preserved instead.

As for the whole hold it for later issue (mentioned by a few), FF7 did let you hold your limit breaks as long as you wish, which I never had an issue with. FF9 on the other hand I had to use it that turn which was annoying if I invoked a limit break then HAD to use it to finish off an enemy with 1 HP left.

 

[BK-tdm]

@BK-tdm : You mentioned it was some using it as like a limit break. If so then why do they not preserve TP? FF7, FF9 and FFX the limit break gauge carries over from battle to battle so if they wish to emulate it they should have it preserved instead.

As for the whole hold it for later issue (mentioned by a few), FF7 did let you hold your limit breaks as long as you wish, which I never had an issue with. FF9 on the other hand I had to use it that turn which was annoying if I invoked a limit break then HAD to use it to finish off an enemy with 1 HP left.

Pretty sure FF7 was designed with you having a full limit combo ready at the start of the boss, not counting the silly copy materia with summons shenanigans...
Again,the main reason preserve TP is not the gold standard is because people dont know of its existance or forget about it as they focus on the "limit breaking" mechanics of tp management and use.

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

I'm in the camp that says TP needs to be preserved. Depending on how it's utilized, I would go so far as to say the limit of 100 should be broken as well. I think if people are not reserving it because they are using that non-reservation as a way to balance, then they should take another look at their balancing in general.

What irks me though, is when you start a new game and don't have any TP skills at your disposal. I think if TP is being shown, every PC needs at least one skill that uses it to start out.

 

[zerobeat032]

I have a weird TP setup so it's always stocked... but that's because you gain access to certain stuff with all 5 points, or at least 1 point. I haven't worked any kinks out so this could easily change but for now it acts more like AP. so yeah, every battle starts at a full gauge. and certain things can instantly refill it in battle. but I do feel most go for a limit break idea. or even super meter like fighting games. that was my original idea.

 

[Kes]

In particular this can allow players to cheese boss fights by deliberately grinding up a full TP gauge in advance and then immediately starting the fight with their best skills. Worse yet it arguably encourages this and makes players feel disadvantaged if they don't do it.

This homes in on one of the deepest flaws (imo) of not preserving TP.

I'm coming up to a boss battle. The expectation is that I will choose my party with care. I will equip the most suitable gear. I will ensure that HP and MP are full by healing up. Mages can leap straight into action so that, in the words of the quote, they are "immediately starting the fight with their best skills". But I am not allowed to ensure that my characters with physical skills are in any shape to do their best. So two different standards are being applied here for no obvious reason that I can see.

So can anyone explain to me precisely why it is not merely okay but expected that if I want to I can cast 'Armageddon On Steroids' on the first turn, but not be able to use 'Dazzling Domesday Sword Cascade'.

 

[Restart]

This homes in on one of the deepest flaws (imo) of not preserving TP.

I'm coming up to a boss battle. The expectation is that I will choose my party with care. I will equip the most suitable gear. I will ensure that HP and MP are full by healing up. Mages can leap straight into action so that, in the words of the quote, they are "immediately starting the fight with their best skills". But I am not allowed to ensure that my characters with physical skills are in any shape to do their best. So two different standards are being applied here for no obvious reason that I can see.

So can anyone explain to me precisely why it is not merely okay but expected that if I want to I can cast 'Armageddon On Steroids' on the first turn, but not be able to use 'Dazzling Domesday Sword Cascade'.

If you want your physical and magical characters to be treated mechanically identically, why have two systems to begin with?

 

[CraneSoft]

I believe the answer to your "Why?" is simpler than you think:
Most devs simply doesn't care and reset it because that's how it works by default.

I myself preserve TP - because I remade it into a negative parameter that builds up when hit by certain attacks and you don't want it to build up, so I will say everyone have their reasons and there is no "one" standard, TP is a very versatile resource that doesn't necessarily have to be "skill usage cost for physical attackers". Stick to MP if using cool physical skills on Turn 1 is what you want.

 

[TheoAllen]

The rarest one: Its intended.

Hello, I'm a rare creature.

-------
The majority of the reason had been mentioned by Wavelength. I want to encourage my players to use the skill right away when they have the TP. Because it is not preserved. There is no reason not to use the skill. You have the right amount of TP, pick a skill, use it. You couldn't even save a lot of TP to use multiple skills, you have to choose a skill right now. Imagine if TP is preserved, you might think "this isn't the time yet" and thus you end up spamming attack as usual. It was actually my attempt to combat the "mash attack" kind of design while not making it into resource management like managing MP (I actually hate MP system).

As for why it started from 0 to 20 (max 50), it is because I like RNG that generates a situation that you have to deal with it. The start of the battle is random. TP number, enemy composition, and you have to deal with it. You always get the first turn and you're free to pop up TP recovery item if you want to. Let's assume you get bad luck of getting 0 TP, you attacked, you gain 5 TP, and it regens 5 TP, next turn you have 10 TP. And if you get attacked, you gain another TP. Then you can already use a skill. It takes a maximum of 2 turns to use a skill. Besides, the normal battle ends in 1 ~ 4 turns most of the time.

If my players demand a preserved TP, at most I will only preserve the half amount of TP from the last battle if not less. Then I might as well as remove random TP gain.

 

[bgillisp]

This homes in on one of the deepest flaws (imo) of not preserving TP.

I'm coming up to a boss battle. The expectation is that I will choose my party with care. I will equip the most suitable gear. I will ensure that HP and MP are full by healing up. Mages can leap straight into action so that, in the words of the quote, they are "immediately starting the fight with their best skills". But I am not allowed to ensure that my characters with physical skills are in any shape to do their best. So two different standards are being applied here for no obvious reason that I can see.

So can anyone explain to me precisely why it is not merely okay but expected that if I want to I can cast 'Armageddon On Steroids' on the first turn, but not be able to use 'Dazzling Domesday Sword Cascade'.

That is actually why I don't do TP in my games, and just stick to MP for all classes.

 

[oriongates]

I think if you're treating your TP gauge purely as MP for physical attacks then that's why there's a disconnect. It shouldn't be "mages get to cast spells immediately" vs "fighters have to build up TP", it should be "both types have immediate abilities to use, and then have bigger powers that get unleashed with built-up TP"


The function of TP as-intended is genre emulation. It's meant to make the game emulate anime/manga/games where players don't start a fight with their big, devastating attack and instead unleash those later in a fight.

As an example, you don't normally see a character like Goku start a fight with a Kamehameha blast and Voltron doesn't pull out their giant fight-winning sword until the very end.

It's a pacing mechanic where a character's power is linked to the strength of their opposition. Minor opponents that can be finished off with a few simple attacks or MP-powered abilities don't get blasted away by the Doomstar Requiem Cannon, while opponents who are a bit tougher give you the opportunity to build enough TP to finish them off with a mid-level finishing move, while boss characters are tough enough that you can build-to and unleash your highest level 100 TP abilities, sometimes more than once.


That's also the main reason not to preserve TP, because it leads to situations where the big guns get busted out at the start of a fight or get used to casually clear minor enemies.

However, if some of your characters only abilities are high-cost TP-fueled powers then that's the main problem: they either need some MP based abilities or a few low-cost TP-based ones (like 5 or 10 tp abilities...they can be spammed more or less endlessly but it'll slow your gain for higher abilities).