Problems with Magic and Non-Magic Classes

[Bluetoes]

Hmm. Well then you could use multiple elements per attack with the script, that way you would reach at least some of the damage to the weakness. Or you could allow equipment changes during battle. So if you find out an enemy is weak to piercing attacks you switch to a spear with your warrior.

There are already equipment changes but only for defensive purposes (since each party member needs to have their own strengths / weaknesses to the same elements) but I dont want overcomplicate the battle system anymore with new actions such as weapon changing since its already complex enough (in idea form). I think I might just try your 3/5 element ratio suggestion and see if its balance-able.

Though if theres a way to have physical classes build up the gauge a different way and have only magic elements, that would be less of a nightmare to balance. I cant really think of any other balanced way to build up the gauge though. Crits are too luck based and simply dealing damage makes it easier to build up than exploiting enemy weaknesses, so im out of ideas

 

[Euphoria]

The gauge could fill more based on damage done rather than weakness exploited, so the enemies weaknesses would still make it go up faster but neutral attacks would make it go up a tiny bit? I don't know how your gauge is set up though. Anyways hope the 3/5 idea helps! Good luck.

PS. Another idea is to have the gauge drop from using attacks that the enemy is strong against.

 

[Bluetoes]

The gauge could fill more based on damage done rather than weakness exploited, so the enemies weaknesses would still make it go up faster but neutral attacks would make it go up a tiny bit? I don't know how your gauge is set up though. Anyways hope the 3/5 idea helps! Good luck.

PS. Another idea is to have the gauge drop from using attacks that the enemy is strong against.

One last question if you dont mind: Would you as a player be perfectly fine with having Slashing, Piercing and Crushing techs not at all based on weapon equiped? So that all physical classes have access to techs of all physical types at all times (once learnt obviously)? And if so would you be fine if the actual effects of these physical types are random in the sense that Piercing attacks dont ALL reduce a stat, that Crushing attacks dont ALL do pure damage, etc? Otherwise if a boss is weak to Crushing attacks and you want to use an attack that reduces a stat, you arent limited to using only Piercing attacks. Also for anyone that knows, does FFX-2 have subclasses in its job system like FF5?

 

[monkeyintartan]

You could always make a physical class weak against elements that are the opposite of what you would define a class as.

eg a rouge may be strong in wind and earth as they are swift and sneaky and have a good idea about poisons. swift (wind) Poison/sneaky (dark), then the things they are week in would be the opposite of those. eg. light - as light shines upon a shadow revealing what's hidden  earth - as no matter how fast you are a cliff will always stand in your way lol

or something along those lines ,

hope that helps

 

[Euphoria]

One last question if you dont mind: Would you as a player be perfectly fine with having Slashing, Piercing and Crushing techs not at all based on weapon equiped? So that all physical classes have access to techs of all physical types at all times (once learnt obviously)? And if so would you be fine if the actual effects of these physical types are random in the sense that Piercing attacks dont ALL reduce a stat, that Crushing attacks dont ALL do pure damage, etc? Otherwise if a boss is weak to Crushing attacks and you want to use an attack that reduces a stat, you arent limited to using only Piercing attacks.

Also for anyone that knows, does FFX-2 have subclasses in its job system like FF5?

It depends on the animations and how it's carried out, I think a sword which would classify as slashing could have a stab attack that acts as piercing damage, but you should make that very obvious through the skills description. I wouldn't make all weapons have all physical types available unless you can make it make perfect sense like the stab attack example. Piercing attacks wouldn't have to reduce stats at all, it all depends on the skills you make. Hope this helps!

Another example: Light armor would be effected by Slashing and Piercing a lot while heavier armor would be more effected by Crushing attacks than Slashing. This would be for enemies of course, unless you wanted to implement this into player's armors too.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

as long as it's logical... like sword techs for short/small swords can be used to deal slashing/piercing(to some extent), but not crushing...


FFX-2 doesn't have subclasses... the "jobs" are simply changeable in-battle via the dress sphere

 

[GammaVector]

...What if all elemental damage was based on equips? Like, all magic spells do just plain "magic" damage (which is only as common a weakness as physical), unless you're wearing an elemental amulet? Then you get access to that elemental versions of the spells you already have? Like, "Burst" becomes "Fire Burst," etc. And physical classes also use the same amulets to make their weapons do elemental damage.


That way, everybody's on equal footing. You could still have spells to change elements mid-fight, or you could make equipment changeable mid-fight, but nobody would HAVE to waste a turn to do elemental damage. And you can keep the same element list, without having to worry whether it really makes sense for a sword to do crushing damage or whatnot.

 

[Bluetoes]

...What if all elemental damage was based on equips? Like, all magic spells do just plain "magic" damage (which is only as common a weakness as physical), unless you're wearing an elemental amulet? Then you get access to that elemental versions of the spells you already have? Like, "Burst" becomes "Fire Burst," etc. And physical classes also use the same amulets to make their weapons do elemental damage.That way, everybody's on equal footing. You could still have spells to change elements mid-fight, or you could make equipment changeable mid-fight, but nobody would HAVE to waste a turn to do elemental damage. And you can keep the same element list, without having to worry whether it really makes sense for a sword to do crushing damage or whatnot.

I think that would work quite well actually, thanks for the suggestion. It would also allow me to come up with tech names that make sense, afterall, having initial water techs for a Necromancer would be weird. Can you think of any way to discourage the player from equipping 4x Fire Amulet of the party, when the enemy/s are also weak to lightning and dark for example?

I know the effect would be the same, but it would be so weird.

I might restrict a certain amulet to a class or two, to spice things up a little bit without breaking anything - but that wouldn't stop 4 party members from having the same pendant.

Most of the time, you'll only need to have 3 party members switching pendants since 1 will likely be a support / healing class. Though some players might like to play with an all offensive party, so it would still be a problem.

Finally, should I have the switch count as a turn? Because with only one element available at one time, switching will be very common.

 

[monkeyintartan]

You could always limit the number of Fire Amulets available.   There are plenty of scripts that allow a shop to have "stock" so you could set it up so that there are a limited number of each amulet in the game at one time. That way the player really has to think about what amulet to put on a character to gain the best effects.

 

[GammaVector]

I think that would work quite well actually, thanks for the suggestion. It would also allow me to come up with tech names that make sense, afterall, having initial water techs for a Necromancer would be weird.


Can you think of any way to discourage the player from equipping 4x Fire Amulet of the party, when the enemy/s are also weak to lightning and dark for example?


I know the effect would be the same, but it would be so weird.


I might restrict a certain amulet to a class or two, to spice things up a little bit without breaking anything - but that wouldn't stop 4 party members from having the same pendant.


Most of the time, you'll only need to have 3 party members switching pendants since 1 will likely be a support / healing class. Though some players might like to play with an all offensive party, so it would still be a problem.


Finally, should I have the switch count as a turn? Because with only one element available at one time, switching will be very common.

As to keeping them from equipping 4x of the same thing, I'd just limit how many they can come by. But if you make it so there are only, say, two of each element, be careful that all your enemies have multiple elemental weaknesses and that the players have access to amulets for all the weaknesses at the same time. For instance, if they start out in an area where most everything is weak to fire, they should be able to get two fire amulets. But what's this? Somebody started with a Light amulet, and it turns out that those starting monsters are also weak to light! Perfect!


Whether or not the switch counts as a turn depends on how you're balancing your fights. I would say no, since it sounds like you've been balancing under the assumption that the player won't have to skip a turn.


If you want the player to have to carefully think about where they are and what weaknesses they're likely to face, and if monsters don't change their weaknesses in the middle of a fight (at least regular monsters, bosses do what they want), then I think it should cost a turn to switch amulets.


But if there's a lot of variety in enemy weaknesses in one area, or if enemies are prone to switching elements mid-fight, then switching should be free. You don't want to frustrate the player, after all.

 

[kerbonklin]

How I handle Magic vs Non-Magic in my game:

Storyline-wise, my male protagonist (1 out of 4 cast) is a human and does not have access to elements/magic at first. However using borrowed magic infused into Devilite Stones (an enchantment system), he can have elements on his weapons, and some magic skills. Later on he gains the power to fully use magic naturally, which is a whole new class that has magic-based skills innate (with some physical Attack-influence) meaning he no longer has to use Devilites for magic and can boost other stats instead using Devilites.

Some enemies also have high Physical resistance so it's best to have magic whenever. However my natural magic-based classes are pretty squishy compared to physical classes.

 

[Bluetoes]

As to keeping them from equipping 4x of the same thing, I'd just limit how many they can come by. But if you make it so there are only, say, two of each element, be careful that all your enemies have multiple elemental weaknesses and that the players have access to amulets for all the weaknesses at the same time. For instance, if they start out in an area where most everything is weak to fire, they should be able to get two fire amulets. But what's this? Somebody started with a Light amulet, and it turns out that those starting monsters are also weak to light! Perfect!

Whether or not the switch counts as a turn depends on how you're balancing your fights. I would say no, since it sounds like you've been balancing under the assumption that the player won't have to skip a turn.

If you want the player to have to carefully think about where they are and what weaknesses they're likely to face, and if monsters don't change their weaknesses in the middle of a fight (at least regular monsters, bosses do what they want), then I think it should cost a turn to switch amulets.

But if there's a lot of variety in enemy weaknesses in one area, or if enemies are prone to switching elements mid-fight, then switching should be free. You don't want to frustrate the player, after all.

Yeah, I’ll probably just limit the number of amulets. Most bosses WILL change their elemental weakness, so atleast against bosses there shouldn't be that big of a drawback. However, there needs to be some drawback, so perhaps a 5% MP decrease per change OR a new status that disallows changes for 2-3 turns once you switch into an amulet.

There are actually offensive and defensive amulets. You already know how offensive amulets work, but defensive amulets will give the party member their own element weaknesses and strengths. Both will be changable in battle, though the defensive amulet will cost a turn and the offensive amulet would have a lesser drawback.

Ideally, I would love to have both of them in one, but the only way to balance that is to have 8 versions of every defensive amulet for all 8 elements. The player would complain of sifting through too many of the same amulets to get the version they want.

 

[Lunarea]

If so a slight problem is that many magic based classes have similar stat growth, meaning they would have similar if not the same access to elements.

Ah, but that's something that's very easily changed.

Assuming you're using Ace, you can use custom damage formulas. So, while you can have two similar offensive classes, you can use different parameters for their damage calculations. For example, a black mage uses darkness spells and the damage could be tied to MaxMP (so more max MP = more damage, especially useful when each spell takes a % of MP off). A red mage uses fire spells and the damage is based on the more conventional MAT stat. You can even take it a step further and have a global damage formula for all mages, but having each class modify the damage with a different stat.

 

[captainproton]

I had a similar issue, wanting to keep the elemental alignments balanced through the party, even though some of my chars weren't spellcasters. What i ended up doing was creating TP attacks with elemental properties; eg: Fist of Fire for the martial artist class and Dervish Blade (wind) for the thieves. I also created "relic" weapons with elemental props, like the Salamander Blade (fire) and the Thistle Mace (wood). Selchar even created a script so you can give the weapons "unleash" attacks: magic skills which randomly activate during battle, a la Golden Sun. So, sometimes my completely nonmagical knight, wielding the light-aligned Michael Sword, may unleash the Judgment spell, without using any MP on her part.

I also created "X-" elements, which I attached to specific skills and weapons to target specific types of monsters. For instance, the axe skill "Clearcut" has the X-Plant element attached to it, and I gave all plant monsters a 200% weakness to X-Plant. This way, it goes around any skills or items which add resistances to normal elements like fire or water. And since a rock golem isn't a plant monster, it isn't much affected by Clearcut.

I do like the idea of chainmail not preventing much damage from things like arrows (true, btw).

 

[Traveling Bard]

I hate to admit this but I read your original post and will be answering it soooooo not sure if my answer has been said already or if you've already solved your problem... I just had a thought that if you have magical elements on the same line as physical, why not make it so that either those that are physical users have elementally enchanted weapons/items to compensate for their lack of magic(which is what a world ruled by those with magic would most likely yield) or have them possess the strength or skill to overcome the handycap of not having magic.

For an example, I turn to Avatar: The Last Airbender and Azula's party members Mai & Ty Lee. Both of them were more than capable of handling themselves in a fight with benders(in your case, magic users) by possessing superior speed, skill(one threw knives & the other could disable their bending for a time being), and teamwork(in your case, you could just have them build combos either by themselves or off each other to make up the difference). When I say build combos, I of course mean something along the lines of getting off Heavy Strike which could stun the enemy and then hitting them with Piercing Thrust which does almost twice the damage when the target is stunned, etc, etc. I'm not saying to make physical tech characters OP to compensate for their lack of magic. I simply mean, if they are physical...increase their stats a bit in that regard. They would obviously be more body oriented since they don't use magic so Strength, Physical Defense, Agility would go up. Possibly evade as well. 

In line with the other possibility of having enchanted items or weapons, you could give them limited strength. Like a finite number of uses per battle or for the whole game(oooOOOoo) which would force the player to use the techniques sparingly and also not give non-magical characters the same feel as magical characters. There needs to be a line drawn in that sense so you don't end up with the end game of final fantasy 3(or 6 for you japanese folks ) don't get me wrong, I love that game! But once they introduced espers and the ability for everyone to learn all powerful magic...in the end, everyone pretty much looks the same and the whole unique spin of 12 different styles of abilities kind of goes out the window. Anywho, I hope this helps. You might want to take a look at how Chrono Cross does things, if I recall they did something similar with everything having an element to it even most physical attacks. Just my two cents

 

[Clord]

In one of my game projects, I have two versions of each element.


Fire


Fire (Weapons)


When you use weapon attuned to certain element, it deals damage based on weapon version of that element and thus gives smaller bonus when using it against monster's weakness. While magic that requires mana is way more effective when used against the right monsters.